Maybe some truth to "once saved, always saved"?

[bilop]

I am not talking about the usual doctrine that once we have sanctifying grace, we can never in our lives lose it.

I merely am suggesting that, if you ever have sanctifying grace in your life, God probably won’t allow you to die at some point when you don’t. People can gain and lose sanctifying grace, but it seems like God would ensure that people die during a period in their life when they are in a state of grace, if there is any point in their life when that occurs.

thoughts?

No, there is no truth to it.

If a person does not have the ability to deny God and/or sin grievously at the last moment, then free will is undermined.

God Bless

 

[porthos11]

**porthos

Much better to say we don’t know, or understand yet than say a supernatural Being must be the answer.**

If God has predestined some to heaven, has he predestined others to hell?

Yes he has, but not in the Calvinist/double-predestination sense. This grates on most Catholics’ ears because most are unaware of this teaching, but both predestination and reprobation and Catholic dogma.

 

[Richca]

If we are once saved, then always saved, what would be the point of going to confession and having our sins forgiven? It sounds like a pipe dream to me and much too close to predestination.

Hi charlemagne,
Predestination does not do away with free will as the CCC#600 says:
“To God, all moments of time are present in their immediacy. When therefore he establishes his eternal plan of “predestination”, he includes in it each person’s free response to his grace.”

 

[N0X3x]

If we are once saved, then always saved, what would be the point of going to confession and having our sins forgiven? It sounds like a pipe dream to me and much too close to predestination.

It would amount to predestination, Charlie! Nothing we do would make any difference.

Yes!

We would be free to gain and lose God’s grace. That’s hardly predestination. We would go to confession in order to regain God’s graces, because it is the right thing to do, not because we would be hoping for any reward. That’s supposed to be our motivation even this idea isn’t true!

 

[Richca]

Yes he has, but not in the Calvinist/double-predestination sense. This grates on most Catholics’ ears because most are unaware of this teaching, but both predestination and reprobation and Catholic dogma.

Hi porthos,
This is absolutely false. CCC#1037: “God predestines no one to go to hell.”

 

[N0X3x]

Wouldn’t “Once saved, always saved” take away our free will ?

Lucifer and the other angels were given free will and used it to turn away from God. We also have that same free will, so with that, we can chose at anytime to also turn away from God before we die if we wish to.

---

God knows when we will die, but it is our responsibilty to ensure that we are in a state of grace. Otherwise, God would be infringing on the free will He gives us, which He never does.

It doesn’t seem to me that this would take away our free will at all. If you are in a state of grace, and God knows that you will fall in the future, it is in God’s interests to make sure you die before then. This both respects our free decision (at that moment in time, we were freely choosing God), and ensures the eternal salvation of our immortal soul.

Our moment of death isn’t at some fixed, fated point. God can move it around however he pleases to suit his interests.

 

[porthos11]

Hi porthos,
This is absolutely false. CCC#1037: “God predestines no one to go to hell.”

No it’s not. The Catechism is addressing only one very specific false notion of reprobation, and that is unconditioned positive reprobation, held by the double-predestinarians.

But reprobation, specifically conditioned reprobation in light of foreseen demerits, is in fact part of the deposit of faith.

As I said, it grates on most Catholics’ ears who aren’t even aware that both predestination and reprobation are in fact Catholic.

 

[N0X3x]

No, there is no truth to it.

If a person does not have the ability to deny God and/or sin grievously at the last moment, then free will is undermined.

God Bless

The person has that ability, but God knows that if the person dies at that precise moment, the person will not use it. God knows the decision that the person will make no matter when that person dies. It only makes sense for God to ensure that deaths occur during moments in a person’s life when people would freely make the right decision.

 

[bilop]

No it’s not. The Catechism is addressing only one very specific false notion of reprobation, and that is unconditioned positive reprobation, held by the double-predestinarians.

But reprobation, specifically conditioned reprobation in light of foreseen demerits, is in fact part of the deposit of faith.

As I said, it grates on most Catholics’ ears who aren’t even aware that both predestination and reprobation are in fact Catholic.

All that “pre-destination” means in the Catholic sense is that God knows everything that will ever happen (there is no time to God, all eternity is as the present to Him), so He knows who will be saved and who will be damned.

That knowledge, however, does not imply the He positively wills that anyone be damned, or that every individual does not have the free will, and sufficient grace to be saved.

God wills everyone be saved. But, He gives us free will to love Him or not, according to our own free choice. If we choose not, he permissively wills us to damn ourselves.

Calvinist pre-destination is a demonic heresy, that only serves to cause despair.

God Bless

 

[bilop]

The person has that ability, but God knows that if the person dies at that precise moment, the person will not use it. God knows the decision that the person will make no matter when that person dies. It only makes sense for God to ensure that deaths occur during moments in a person’s life when people would freely make the right decision.

No, it doesn’t make sense. God doesn’t micro-manage our lives that way. If He did, you’d be seeing a slew of people dropping dead on the way out of the confessional.

Seriously, this is a dangerous heresy. The Cathars followed a version of this logic, and used to kill people on the way out of the confessional to ensure their salvation.

God will not wait until you are in the state of Grace to call you. Don’t take false assurance from such an idea. No one knows the day or the hour.

God Bless

 

[porthos11]

All that “pre-destination” means in the Catholic sense is that God knows everything that will ever happen (there is no time to God, all eternity is as the present to Him), so He knows who will be saved and who will be damned.

That knowledge, however, does not imply the He positively wills that anyone be damned, or that every individual does not have the free will, and sufficient grace to be saved.

God wills everyone be saved. But, He gives us free will to love Him or not, according to our own free choice. If we choose not, he permissively wills us to damn ourselves.

Calvinist pre-destination is a demonic heresy, that only serves to cause despair.

God Bless

There’s more to Catholic predestination than God merely “knowing”. Catholic predestination does include God’s active will and sovereignty, that is, God does decree and intend that certain people to be saved, and then he works with grace and those people’s free will to ensure that the divine decree is secured.

 

[bilop]

There’s more to Catholic predestination than God merely “knowing”. Catholic predestination does include God’s active will and sovereignty, that is, God does decree and intend that certain people to be saved, and then he works with grace and those people’s free will to ensure that the divine decree is secured.

It is de fide that God gives each and every person sufficient grace to be saved.

You seem to be refrerring to the theory of predestination ante prævisa merita

(see Catholic Encyclopedia newadvent.org/cathen/12378a.htm)

This is mere theory, and the writers of the Encyclopedia find little support for it in Scripture or among the writings of the Church Fathers.

God Bless

 

[porthos11]

It is de fide that God gives each and every person sufficient grace to be saved.

You seem to be refrerring to the theory of predestination ante prævisa merita

(see Catholic Encyclopedia newadvent.org/cathen/12378a.htm)

This is mere theory, and the writers of the Encyclopedia find little support for it in Scripture or among the writings of the Church Fathers.

God Bless

Predestination ante praevisa merita is Thomistic and one of the theories accepted by the Church, Catholic Encyclopedia notwithstanding.

Predestination post praevisa merita is Molinistic and also accepted by the Church. However, it still affirms God’s sovereign will because in Molinism, God lays out a fixed order of grace, which is what allows him to predestine some to salvation, and others to damnation.

Both are only theories, because as I said, the Church has not ruled on either. All that we need to accept as a matter of faith is that God desires the salvation of all, gives sufficient grace to all, and that predestination and reprobation are true.

Both theories are acceptable because they affirm BOTH God’s sovereign will and man’s free will. I tend more towards Molinism but there’s also something about the Thomist/Banez theory of predestination ante praevisa merita that’s also quite appealing.

 

[Richca]

It’s not what I believe, it’s what the Catholic Church teaches. The Church teaches that man has free will. The Church teaches it, therefore I believe it.

The following are Catholic teaching:

 

[porthos11]

This is true. St Paul says “God wills all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth.” And the CCC#605 says;"
At the end of the parable of the lost sheep Jesus recalled that God’s love excludes no one: “So it is not the will of your Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones should perish.” He affirms that he came “to give his life as a ransom for many”; this last term is not restrictive, but contrasts the whole of humanity with the unique person of the redeemer who hands himself over to save us. The Church, following the apostles, teaches that Christ died for all men without exception: “There is not, never has been, and never will be a single human being for whom Christ did not suffer.”

 

[Charlemagne_II]

**bilop

Calvinist pre-destination is a demonic heresy, that only serves to cause despair.**



Yes, I think “predestine” can mean two different things: it can mean that we are puppets and God pulls our strings; or it can mean God planned for us all to be saved, but he knows some of us will not be saved by our own choice, not his. I think the Catechism must be referring to predestination in the latter sense, certainly not in the Calvinistic sense.

 

[bilop]

Richca;11360329:

Again, predestination and reprobation are Catholic teaching. The Catholic Church affirms the universal desire of salvation. But the universal desire for salvation does not equate predestination of the elect. While God desires the salvation of all, he has not decreed that all will be saved. He has decreed that some will be saved. Who are of the elect is unknowable and the number of the predestined is immutable.

The doctrine of reprobation states that God DOES predestine certain people to hell, but never ante praevisa demerita. This is why I lean towards the Molinist school because it has the most reasoned system for accounting for all the truths of the Catholic faith: predestination, reprobation, grace, free will and God’s sovereignty. The Thomist school, while it works just fine for predestination to glory, does not have a good equivalent for reprobation, which effectively becomes Calvinist double-predestination, which is rightly deemed heretical.

No matter how many graces God grants any one person they can still die in mortal sin, and be damned. No matter how few graces God grants someone, He grants them sufficient Grace to be saved.

God doesn’t “force” anyone to be saved. There is not one human who has ever lived that was incapable of committing, and dying in mortal sin.

Even Mary could have sinned and rejected God, despite her lack of original sin. After all, the fallen Angels had no original sin, and had access to the beatific vision, yet still damned themselves.

God Bless

 

[porthos11]

porthos11;11360351:

No matter how many graces God grants any one person they can still die in mortal sin, and be damned. No matter how few graces God grants someone, He grants them sufficient Grace to be saved.

God doesn’t “force” anyone to be saved. There is not one human who has ever lived that was incapable of committing, and dying in mortal sin.

Even Mary could have sinned and rejected God, despite her lack of original sin. After all, the fallen Angels had no original sin, and had access to the beatific vision, yet still damned themselves.

God Bless

No one is saying anything about anyone being forced into salvation; that denies free will and is condemned by the Church.

But if you are one of the elect, then you WILL accept God’s grace, you WILL persevere to the end, and you WILL use your free will to cooperate with that grace to reach heaven, thereby securing God’s decree. This could be because God knows which graces you will freely respond to and therefore give you those graces (Thomism), or he lays out a fixed, immutable order of grace, sees your free response to it and predestines you by virtue of your foreseen merits (Molinism). But either way, God decreed that you will be saved, he gave you grace he knows you will respond to, and his will is secured.

 

[bilop]

bilop;11360365:

No one is saying anything about anyone being forced into salvation; that denies free will and is condemned by the Church.

But if you are one of the elect, then you WILL accept God’s grace, you WILL persevere to the end, and you WILL use your free will to cooperate with that grace to reach heaven, thereby securing God’s decree. This could be because God knows which graces you will freely respond to and therefore give you those graces (Thomism), or he lays out a fixed, immutable order of grace, sees your free response to it and predestines you by virtue of your foreseen merits (Molinism). But either way, God decreed that you will be saved, he gave you grace he knows you will respond to, and his will is secured.

I don’t see what different in that rather than simply saying 1) God will all to be saved, 2) God gives each sufficient Grace to be saved, 3) God knows who will accept the grace and who will not, 4) God allows those who reject His grace the free will to damn themselves.

Your formulation makes it sound like there is some “super-class” of souls for whom God goes out of His way to make sure they are saved. They get 'special treatment" vs. the average soul.

God Bless

 

[porthos11]

porthos11;11360392:

I don’t see what different in that rather than simply saying 1) God will all to be saved, 2) God gives each sufficient Grace to be saved, 3) God knows who will accept the grace and who will not, 4) God allows those who reject His grace the free will to damn themselves.

God Bless

Because predestination teaches us that God can say “I decree that bilop will be saved” and will ensure that no matter what, you will be saved, and it will be because you freely responded to his grace. But because you were one of the elect, God has ensured that you will not go to hell.

Whether or not this was in light of any of your merits or without consideration of them, we do not know.