N
- Status
J
Julian0404
Guest
I believe he did
A
Adeodatus
Guest
That was a good article.
B
bkayw
Guest
Two things I agree with: adult faith formation year in and year out and bring back the communion rail.
C
colmcille1
Guest
Hi ncstevem,
Thank you for posting this link. I felt as I was reading it that the author might as well have been describing the situation here in Ireland. I do believe though that just as materialism is seen as illusory, so too, in time, this new-fangled “Catholicism” will prove to be all style and no substance.
God Bless,
Colmcille.
P
Pregustator
Guest
Typical partisan spin journalism. Yet another embarrassing piece of Catholic editorial journalism blaming the media for exposing the scandal of child abuse (and cover ups) by clergy. Tripe. It ought to be enough to make anyone throw up. Catholic journalists who do this ought really to be ashamed of themselves.
And just what does the pope need to apologize to “traditional Catholics” for, I wonder? Can you tell me? And by “traditional” I assume we mean “traditionalist”, of course.
At any rate, what shall Pope Benedict XVI, of all popes, apologize to Catholic Traditionalists for? For liberating the Tridentine form of Mass and lifting all restrictions on the celebration of the same? For publicly encouraging its use? For leading by example in the restoration of Latin and solemnity in the liturgy? For championing the ad orientem posture of the celebrant at Mass? For unabashedly celebrating Mass at St. Peter’s wearing fiddleback chasubles (over dalmatics, no less)? For restoring without fear of mockery all those splendid papal garments and glories that Traditonalists have frequently bemoaned the disappearance of: the ermine and velvet mozzetta, the white damask mozzetta, the camauro, the mantum, the lace alb and rochet, the red papal slippers, the gilt and velvet papal thrones…and heaven only knows what else. Or shall he apologize to Traditionalists, perhaps, for lifting the excommunications of the bishops of the Society of St. Pius X and getting spat on by them in return with continued usurpation of ordinary authority and disobedience, in general?
Apologize to traditionalists, indeed. Give me a break.
P
puzzleannie
Guest
well I grew up in the traditional pre-V2 church and they did not have year in year out adult faith formation back then. communion rails, viva, when they bring them back, so you have a fighting chance of kneeling and standing up again without falling, I will kneel for communion and receive on the tongue. Until them as long as I am being punished by being forced to stand in line in front of a minister way too tall to find my tongue and no rail to protect the species from falling, I will continue to receive in the hand.
just dream folks, with communion rails. none of the superfluous lay people would be bustling around the sanctuary any more, loving it
as for the article, it starts out by stating forcing the pope to apologize is hooey, then demands an apology. The person cited who left the Church in spite of “her deep faith in the Eucharist” had no faith, not a particle, if she could separate herself from the sacraments because of the thoughtless sin of omission of one priest on one occasion. Her excuse is the same people have been using for centuries to leave the church, and they have not one single solitary thing to do with the actual way we worship, and everything to do with “some person connected with the church hurt my feelings.” That is not faith, that is a dissatisfied customer taking his business elsewhere.
H
hartleymartin
Guest
I think that article is somewhat unfair in blaming the Pope for changes in the church. After all, it is still the jurisdiction of local bishops to see that various documents coming from the Papacy are correctly implemented. It’s part of a wider social problem that began in the 1960’s. The whole western world was changing, what with the end of WW2, and post-war boom period, where it seemed that humanity was on the up and up. Everything was being changed in the belief that things would be better no matter what you did. People saw the old ways as shackles holding them back. However, we know that traditions and old ways don’t always hold us back. It gives us a firm grounding, a reference or datum point, a background, a context in which to build our lives.
There are many abuses of the liturgy going on out there. People used Vatican II to do what-ever they wanted. In fact, it is the “Spirit of Vatican II” which has been damaging to the Church more than anything else. If anyone examines Vatican II documents carefully, one will find that they have often been liberally interpreted, or just outright ignored and many things have been done in the “Spirit of Vatican II” which really had nothing to do with Vatican II.
Many Bishops in today’s church were in seminary in those “progressive” or “liberalised” days. Similarly many school principals, senior teachers and Parish Priests were also educated in this period. Many thought that the church needed to re-invent itself for the new age. What a disaster that thought was! It is important that people who wish to remain traditional don’t become Schismatic, or “high-brow” Catholics. The single greatest danger is to repeat the mistake of the Jews and to concern yourself more with upholding laws and traditions than with what God is doing and willing in your life.
There are many abuses of the liturgy going on out there. People used Vatican II to do what-ever they wanted. In fact, it is the “Spirit of Vatican II” which has been damaging to the Church more than anything else. If anyone examines Vatican II documents carefully, one will find that they have often been liberally interpreted, or just outright ignored and many things have been done in the “Spirit of Vatican II” which really had nothing to do with Vatican II.
Many Bishops in today’s church were in seminary in those “progressive” or “liberalised” days. Similarly many school principals, senior teachers and Parish Priests were also educated in this period. Many thought that the church needed to re-invent itself for the new age. What a disaster that thought was! It is important that people who wish to remain traditional don’t become Schismatic, or “high-brow” Catholics. The single greatest danger is to repeat the mistake of the Jews and to concern yourself more with upholding laws and traditions than with what God is doing and willing in your life.
S
StTommyMore
Guest
Why does anyone pay any attention to this self-vicitimizing “newspaper”
O
Ockham
Guest
Shocking. People in the Traditional forum read the Remnant. I’d be more surprised if someone quoted from the Tablet, National Catholic Reporter, or America magazine. You know, the trumpets of modernism.
O
Ockham
Guest
Although I’m not asking for nor expect any type of apology, one could be issued by the Pope for many recent things. He could apologize for the Church bannishing the liturgy codified by the Council of Trent, creating a new liturgy when no Pope or Council called for one, allowing said new liturgy to be subjected to years of abuse and novelty against its own rubics, going against countless teachings from Popes and Councils against Communion in the hand, ripping out altar rails and destroying high altars, allowing priests to abandon teaching and the importance of confessing sins, etc, etc, etc.
S
StTommyMore
Guest
The fact remains that the “Remnant” is barely Catholic, as it is so biased as to alienate the majority of Catholics. It is possible to favor the TLM without at the same time denigrating the OF and portraying yourself as the victim of non-existent persecution. The Pope owes no apology to Traditionalists. You have the TLM. Any priest is allowed to (though not required to) celebrate the TLM without needing prior approval of the local Ordinary (though the Bishop is well within his rights as overseer of the diocese to be notified if it is being celebrated). I just tire of the crying from Traditionalists. And I consider myself to be a traditional-leaning Catholic.
L
Layman
Guest
The article is just a rant. It could have coolly made the point that people expect the Pope to make a fashionable public apology about something that has already been well-dealt with, while there is no such acknowledgement about the insanity of the past 40+ years; the liberal icononclasm.
These two issues aren’t equivalent, anyway. Child abuse and perderasty are utterly illegal, while worship modification and liberal tendencies aren’t.
These two issues aren’t equivalent, anyway. Child abuse and perderasty are utterly illegal, while worship modification and liberal tendencies aren’t.
O
Ockham
Guest
Really? Perhaps the majority of Catholics alienate themselves from the Church by not attending weekly Mass, practice contraception, don’t believe in Transubstantiation, etc.
Google the columnists from the National Catholic Reporter. Several are connected with “Call To Action”, at least one is a practicing homosexual.
ncronline.org/
Sorry to break this to you, but the chains aren’t off the EF in every diocese. There are many bishops who defy the Pope and block the EF.
You should be aware that there is a lot of discussion of traditional Catholic issues in this Traditional Catholic forum. I hope you don’t tire yourself out here.
S
StTommyMore
Guest
I have never advocated the liberal publications you hold up as an example. That is the problem of the Bishop. Part of the responsibility of the laity is to make sure these Bishops are reprimanded for their defiance, but going through the proper channels
Discussion I have no problem with. The doom-and gloom whining is pathetic.
J
journierman
Guest
I think John paul II did apologize somewhere for the liturgical abuses that have distressed so many good Catholics. I am not sure we have seen the end of the leaders of the Church having to own up to how badly things got out of hand after Vatican 2. Some of it was not their fault but good parents know that you cannot blame all of the problems in your family on the kids.
R
rjh_nyc
Guest
Really? I found it both pathetic and outrageous. Particularly these two sentences:
“How many millions of similarly disillusioned Catholics left the Church after the Mass was Protestantized, the schools liberalized, the nuns feminized, and the priests modernized? Are they not victims of an abuse nearly as traumatic as that suffered by victims of sexual abuse?”
Answer: No. (Sorry.)
I may not be as sympathetic to the “plight” of traditional Catholics as I might otherwise be. (I’m only 38, and I live in New York City where you can find as much tradition as you please, as far as I understand.) But, this whiny article was nothing but embarrassing to me (who identifies as pretty “traditional” BTW). Grow up and buck up. I’m not sure what the Church “owes” the author of this article – or any of us – but I’m pretty sure it’s not an apology.
O
Ockham
Guest
In case you haven’t noticed, the Church is in decline. The doom-and-gloom pathetic whinning as you describe it is seen by others as a rallying cry to reform and rebuild.
S
StTommyMore
Guest
The Church is not in decline. Vocations are back on the rise, and the liberals that populated the '70s are all but extinct. Lay movements are thriving.
O
Ockham
Guest
As you should know, there is no salvation outside the Church. It is a fact Mass attendance declined dramatically following the ‘spirit of V2’ changes primarily to the liturgy. For all those outside the Church and in a state of mortal sin they are at great risk of eternal damnation. If the Church caused this situation then those souls are victims. It isn’t “Traditional Catholics” that deserve an apology, it’s all Catholics.
- Status