Me and the Mormons

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I have been talking with Mormons for quite some time now. We keep things very polite and usually talk about what we have in common. I use it as a chance to evangelize, I am sure they do as well.

We have avoided the issue of the apostacy until now. They gave me several bible verses which I will post here. Any thoughts on these verses or the apostacy in general.

Amos 8:11,12
Matt: 24: 9-12
Acts 1:22-26
Acts 20: 26-28
2 Thes 2:2,3
2Peter 2:1-2
1Tim 1:3-7
2Tim 4:3-4

Orig. Of Church. … Eph 2:19,20 and 4:11-14

I plan on using Peter as the Rock, and the Gates of Hell shall not prevail. The Piercing of the side of Jesus as the birth of the Church, the pentecost as the safegaurd of apostacy.

Any Ideas?
 
In Amos 8:11-12, Amos is referring to the idol worshipers of the Northern Kingdom. They will soon search for the Lord God to save them, but it will be too late. People of Samaria and the surrounding area worship the god Baal, and the Mesopotamian gods Sakkuth and Kaiwan. Because of this, and the sin of oppression of the poor by the rich, Amos preached that the Northern Kingdom of Israel would be lost; and in his time it was conquered by Assyria. That is the historical context of Amos’ preaching. But it does not mean it cannot be applied as a warning to future people, or to us.
 
Potato1 said:
I have been talking with Mormons for quite some time now. We keep things very polite and usually talk about what we have in common. I use it as a chance to evangelize, I am sure they do as well.

We have avoided the issue of the apostacy until now. They gave me several bible verses which I will post here. Any thoughts on these verses or the apostacy in general.

Amos 8:11,12
Matt: 24: 9-12
Acts 1:22-26
Acts 20: 26-28
2 Thes 2:2,3
2Peter 2:1-2
1Tim 1:3-7
2Tim 4:3-4

Orig. Of Church. … Eph 2:19,20 and 4:11-14

I plan on using Peter as the Rock, and the Gates of Hell shall not prevail. The Piercing of the side of Jesus as the birth of the Church, the pentecost as the safegaurd of apostacy.

Any Ideas?
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Patrick Madrid addresses the supposed “Great Apostasy” in an article in THIS ROCK and references some of those verses:

catholic.com/thisrock/1992/9203fea.asp
Mormons misconstrue the biblical passages which do refer to a “great apostasy” from the Christian Church. They read into the text a complete apostasy. Scripture mentions an apostasy in Matthew 24:4-12; Mark 13:21-23; Luke 21:7-8; Acts 20:29-30; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-12; 2 Timothy 3:1-7, 4:1-4; 2 Peter 2:1-3; and Jude 17-19. Most of these verses say “many” will fall away, and not one mentions a complete apostasy of the Church. Another complication for Mormons is that these verses say the apostasy will take place at the end times, the “latter days” as the King James version renders it. The second and third centuries were not the “latter days.”
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Why are Catholics and Protestants the apostate ones? Why can’t we interpret Mormonism as being the apostacy? :eek: :confused:
 
Was Joseph Smith a sincere person or was he a grifter who knew how to take advantage of the simple?
 
scottm said:
Why are Catholics and Protestants the apostate ones? Why can’t we interpret Mormonism as being the apostacy? :eek: :confused:
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Yeah, well,😉 some of us (who grew up not that far from where Smith did) actually…:whistle: :whistle:
rwoehmke said:
Was Joseph Smith a sincere person or was he a grifter who knew how to take advantage of the simple?
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There is the:shrug: $64,000 question.
And the next question is pretty much like it: “Who, or what, was the Angel Maca–” 😊 Oops!! I mean, Moroni. The Angel Moroni…Yeah, that’s it. Who or what was:rolleyes: Moroni
 
Potato1 said:
I have been talking with Mormons for quite some time now. We keep things very polite and usually talk about what we have in common. I use it as a chance to evangelize, I am sure they do as well.

We have avoided the issue of the apostacy until now. They gave me several bible verses which I will post here. Any thoughts on these verses or the apostacy in general.

Amos 8:11,12
Matt: 24: 9-12
Acts 1:22-26
Acts 20: 26-28
2 Thes 2:2,3
2Peter 2:1-2
1Tim 1:3-7
2Tim 4:3-4

Orig. Of Church. … Eph 2:19,20 and 4:11-14

I plan on using Peter as the Rock, and the Gates of Hell shall not prevail. The Piercing of the side of Jesus as the birth of the Church, the pentecost as the safegaurd of apostacy.

Any Ideas?
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You’ve received some good advice in this thread so far and I would never try to compete with an article by Patrick Madrid, so I’ll just share a little of my own experience.

I’ve logged many hours chatting with Mormon missionaries and one thing I’ve noticed is, the better I become at explaining scripture from a Catholic point of view, the more they revert to their tesitmonies (“I know the Great Apostacy is true because I prayed about it.”). LDS also tend to prefer their other scriptures over the Bible anyway so even if you’re well-versed it MAY have little impact in your discussions. Of course, you never know what long-term seeds you’ll be sowing, so why not be up on your scripture?

Another thing that may help you when talking with Mormons is having a testimony of your own. You might try telling them about things you know to be true because the Holy Spirit has guided you to them (both in scripture and through prayer). For instance, as Catholics we know the Church cannot be apostate because of Christ’s promises in scripture. A Catholic may even spend time in prayer and receive a deep reassurance that the Catholic Church is “true”. At this point he has a testimony against which a Mormon couldn’t really argue. I think of it as speaking the Catholic experience in a language LDS understand.

I pray that your time with Mormons be fruitful. What a good witness you’re giving by spending time in discussions with them. I think talking to Mormons has made me a stronger and better-informed Catholic.
 
I think the promise made to Peter by Jesus that the gates of Hell would not prevail against His Church should be all that anyone needs. As Catholics, our Church was started by Jesus Christ himself.

I would ask your missionary friends why they would belong to an apostate church started by a serial adulterer, whose book of Morman has been refuted archeologically on virtually every point made in it. Nothing in the Old or New Testaments has ever been refuted by the archeological record, rather, it has supported our Bible.
 
Olivermax said:
I think the promise made to Peter by Jesus that the gates of Hell would not prevail against His Church should be all that anyone needs. As Catholics, our Church was started by Jesus Christ himself.

I would ask your missionary friends why they would belong to an apostate church started by a serial adulterer, whose book of Morman has been refuted archeologically on virtually every point made in it. Nothing in the Old or New Testaments has ever been refuted by the archeological record, rather, it has supported our Bible.
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Joseph Smith’s character is indeed a problem for the honest Mormon. There is no getting around it: All the flatout denials on earth will not wipe the record clean.The problem, IMHO, is to find a Mormon who will look honestly at the record.

Now, archeology…Yes, indeed. It is a poser, isn’t it?? The BoM is a farrago of nonsense.
 
I am reading a book called “Mormonism unmasked” written by the great-great grand daughter of Brigham Young.

I have had to put it down and walk away several times. But it really explains alot!

Moroni was the son of a General named Mormon. Who died and became an angel who appeared to Smith.

If I remember correctly.

Mormons believe in a different God the Father,God the Son and God the Holy Spirit and oh yes God the heavenly Mother. Because God the Father can’t have “spiritual” children alone. So four different “gods” but one in purpose.

They teach that Jesus and Lucifer and all of us were “spiritual” children first before we came into our “earthly” bodies.

And that God the Father was once a man who became a god. And that we to can become a god, (over which planet I do not know). But if you say that God was once a man then who was his god? and so on and so on. Oh and that God did not create the world out of nothing because matter has always existed.

Like I said I had to put the book down several times and walk away. I am still not done reading it.
 
Here are a few observations I read from a Mary Kochan article

What Mormons will say they believe about God:
We believe in God the Father who is the Father of Jesus Christ.
We worship God the Father and pray to him in Jesus’ name.
Jesus is our Savior.

Why the Mormon God the Father is not the Christian God the Father:
“God the Father” to a Mormon is not God the Father, first Person of the Holy Trinity, whom Christians confess. He is one of many gods.
The Mormon worships God the Father because he is the god of this planet, but other planets have other gods equal to or even greater than God the Father.
The Mormon “God the Father” had a Father and was once a man on a planet who worshipped his own Father God. He was subsequently exalted to godhood. He has a physical, human body.
It is the hope of the male Mormon to progress to the point where he too will be a god like God the Father and be ruling over his own planet.
The Mormons have a saying: “What man is, God once was; what God is, man will become.” This is polytheism.

Just some food for thought!
 
When Mormons Call - Answering Mormon Missionaries at Your Door and *Inside Mormonism *- *What Mormons Really Believe *, both by Isaiah Bennett are available at Catholic Answers.

Isaiah was a Catholic priest who became obsessed by Mormonism and left the priesthood to become a Mormon. He has since returned to the Catholic Church.

If you go to the archives you can listen to what he has to say about Mormonism.

Feb 11, 1998 3:00 PM
What Mormons Believe
Isaiah Bennett

Jul 22, 1998 3:00 PM
Sharing the Gospel with Mormons
Isaiah Bennett

Apr 28, 1999 3:00 PM
Inside Mormonism
Isaiah Bennett
 
scottm said:
Why are Catholics and Protestants the apostate ones? Why can’t we interpret Mormonism as being the apostacy? :eek: :confused:
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Because in order to be apostate, one has to fall from the true faith. Since Mormonism did not exist in the beginning, and the beliefs were never orthodox, they could not have fallen away.😉
 
Matthew 24:24
For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

Mark 13:22
For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.

The “if it were possible” from the context demands a negative answer that it is not possible.

Read 3 Nephi 28:4-9; 3 Nephi 28:36-40; 4 Nephi 1:14; Mormon 8:10-11. Like John the Apostle, the Three Nephites were given power over death that they might live until the Second Coming of Christ, when they will be resurrected. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Translation_(Mormonism

These above BoM texts teach that the apostle John and 3 Nephites are to remain alive on earth as “translated beings” preaching the gospel until the second coming. As translated beings they can not be harmed, nor killed.

If the apostle John is on earth as a translated being from the time of Jesus until today, then it is impossible for the church to fall into apostasy because John would be a living apostle. If John is not on earth today as those texts teach then the BoM is false in those texts and has proven itself to be untrustworthy. So, read those texts online, and then read those texts to your missionaries and ask them where is the apostle John today?

👍
 
rwoehmke said:
Was Joseph Smith a sincere person or was he a grifter who knew how to take advantage of the simple?
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There is a mormon story where, JS placed planks under the water of a pond to reproduce the walking on the water miracle. He was challenged a second day to repeat his miracle of walking on the water, but some fun loving children had removed one of the boards and JS fell in, exposing his fraud to the onlookers.
From History of Chenango County, N.Y.:
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Code: 
 Joe Smith, the founder of Mormonism, operated quite extensively in this town [Afton, N.Y.] and vicinity during the early years of his career as a prophet. The reputation of the family was very bad and Joe was considered the worst of the whole. Somewhere about 1828 or 1829 Smith made his appearance in Afton and attended school in District No. 9. Here his supernatural powers manifested themselves by telling fortunes or "foretelling futurity." This was done by placing a stone in his hat and then looking into it drawn over his face so as to exclude the light. He first organized a society at the house of Joe Knight, on the south side of the river, near the Lobdell House, in Broome County. Excavations were made in various places for treasures, and rocks containing iron pyrites were drilled for gold. Previous to digging in any place a sheep was killed and the blood sprinkled upon the spot. Lot 62 was the seat of one of these mining operations.
  To convince the unbelievers that he did possess supernatural powers **he announced that he would walk upon the water.**
  The performance was to take place in the evening, and to the astonishment of unbelievers, he did walk upon the water where it was known to be several feet deep, only sinking a few inches below the surface.
  This proving a success, a second trial was announced which bid fair to be as successful as the first, but when he had proceeded some distance into the river **he suddenly went down, **greatly to the disgust of himself and proselytes, but to the great amusement of the unbelievers.
  It appeared **on examination that planks were laid in the river a few inches below the surface**, and some wicked boys had removed a plank which caused the prophet to go down like any other mortal.
  After pretending to heal the sick, cast out devils, etc., he gained quite a number of followers, but at length came to grief by being prosecuted as an impostor. He was tried before Joseph P. Chamberlain, a Justice of the Peace. Two pettifoggers, by the name of John S. Reed and James Davidson, volunteered to defend him. Three witnesses were examined on the occasion, all of whom testified that they had seen him cast out devils. They saw ‘a devil as large as a woodchuck leave the man and run across the floor'; one of them saw a devil leave the man and ‘run off like a yellow dog.' These witnesses were Mr. Knight and son, and Mr. Stowell, all of whom subsequently went west with Smith.[9]
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waltermartin.org/eyewit.html
 
Whenever, they quote a bible verse stop them and read the context, often the context itself conradicts their proof text.

for example in an article in the Encylopedia of Mormonism called Book of Mormon, Biblical Prophecies about they quote Isaiah 29:4 “their speech would ‘whispher out of the dust’” as a prophecy for the book of mormon. If you read Isaiah 29 in context God is comdemming those who whisper out of the dust, thus cursing the Book of Mormon.

Isaiah 29
1Woe to Ariel, to Ariel, the city where David dwelt! add ye year to year; let them kill sacrifices.

2Yet I will distress Ariel, and there shall be heaviness and sorrow: and it shall be unto me as Ariel.

3And I will camp against thee round about, and will lay siege against thee with a mount, and I will raise forts against thee.

4And thou shalt be brought down, and shalt speak out of the ground, and thy speech shall be low out of the dust, and thy voice shall be, as of one that hath a familiar spirit, out of the ground, and thy speech shall whisper out of the dust.

5Moreover the multitude of thy strangers shall be like small dust, and the multitude of the terrible ones shall be as chaff that passeth away: yea, it shall be at an instant suddenly.

6Thou shalt be visited of the LORD of hosts with thunder, and with earthquake, and great noise, with storm and tempest, and the flame of devouring fire.

Leviticus 19:31
Regard not them that have familiar spirits, neither seek after wizards, to be defiled by them: I am the LORD your God.

Leviticus 20:6
And the soul that turneth after such as have familiar spirits, and after wizards, to go a whoring after them, I will even set my face against that soul, and will cut him off from among his people.

Leviticus 20:27
A man also or woman that hath a familiar spirit, or that is a wizard, shall surely be put to death: they shall stone them with stones: their blood shall be upon them.

Deuteronomy 18:11
Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer.

Another text they like to quote is “there are gods many, and lords many” but, when you read the context,

1 Corinthians 8:4-6 (King James Version)

4As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that *there is none other God but one. *

5For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)

6But* to us there is but one God, the Father*, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

When you confront them on polytheism, they will claim to be monotheist because they only relate to the 'god of this world’

2 Corinthians 4:4 (King James Version)

In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

read for context, you will refute most of their proof texts without much effort at alll
 
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