Meaning of two unrelated scriptural passages

[GloriousOrder]

Friends ,

I’m a tad confused about the meaning of two passages. Can anyone help me by elaborating?

1. When the apostles objected to our Lord’s feet being anointed by expensive oils because they might have been sold to feed the poor, He replied by saying “you have the poor with you always; you do not have me with you always”. Doesn’t this mean that the Eucharist isn’t actually the true flesh of Christ in substance? If He’s literally not with us forever, until He comes again in glory, how can the Eucharist really be His physical presence?
2. When the good thief asked our Lord to look upon him with mercy on the Cross, Christ our Lord said “Amen I say to you: today you shall be in paradise with me”. How can a thief who makes a sudden statement of pure faith leap right over Purgatory and into Heaven? Dismas died on the Cross a thief, or robber, or rebel of some sort, so how could be get directly to paradise just by making a pledge of faith to the Lord? This seems to suggest that there is no Purgatory, because surely if a common criminal can leap right into Heaven, then so can others?

Thank you!

 

[Myqyl]

On question #1 I would refer you tou Matthew 28:19-20

19 Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit,
20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, until the end of the age."

A contradiction? Nope… He says this AFTER He had lain in the tomb for 3 days, which is what the expensive oil was to prepare His body for…

Make sense?

On question # 2, I would refer you to Matthew 19:26

26 Jesus looked at them and said, “For human beings this is impossible, but for God all things are possible.”

Jesus is God… There is NOTHING impossible for God. And I have never heard the Church teach that ALL persons go to Purgatory… Mary is another example of someone bypassing Purgatory. So I agree with you. Others can indeed bypass Purgatory. I doubt I am anywhere near meeting the requirements of that particular honor, but it’s something to shoot for I guess…

Hope that helps.

God bless and thank you for your fellowship.

Mike

 

[GloriousOrder]

#1 was not that great of an objection, so your reply is helpful. I was thinking about Matthew 28 as I typed…

#2 is rather awkward. Dismas is nowhere near Mary, as he was hanging on a cross next to our Lord for some crime. Since everyone seems to agree that he was a thief, he had obviously broken the Seventh Commandment. How can someone who is undergoing punishment for theft (or rebellion, whatever it was) be able to enter Heaven immediately upon proclaiming Jesus as Lord? It simply sounds rather Protestant…

Your aid is helpful, no matter how much or little it is!

 

[JRKH]

#1 was not that great of an objection, so your reply is helpful. I was thinking about Matthew 28 as I typed…

#2 is rather awkward. Dismas is nowhere near Mary, as he was hanging on a cross next to our Lord for some crime. Since everyone seems to agree that he was a thief, he had obviously broken the Seventh Commandment. How can someone who is undergoing punishment for theft (or rebellion, whatever it was) be able to enter Heaven immediately upon proclaiming Jesus as Lord? It simply sounds rather Protestant…

Your aid is helpful, no matter how much or little it is!

You raise good points re the thief on the cross.
A couple of things to consider.
First, We do not know when he thief had his conversion experience or what trials and punishments he had undergone since the conversion. We only know that he made his proclamation while hanging next to Jesus. It may well be that he had, by his earthly sufferings, already purged his soul and was therefore prepared at death to enter heaven.
Second, and related to the above, we do not know the state of his soul. Christ did and declared it fit for “paradise”.

Peace
James

 

[Waiting]

#1 was not that great of an objection, so your reply is helpful. I was thinking about Matthew 28 as I typed…

#2 is rather awkward. Dismas is nowhere near Mary, as he was hanging on a cross next to our Lord for some crime. Since everyone seems to agree that he was a thief, he had obviously broken the Seventh Commandment. How can someone who is undergoing punishment for theft (or rebellion, whatever it was) be able to enter Heaven immediately upon proclaiming Jesus as Lord? It simply sounds rather Protestant…

Your aid is helpful, no matter how much or little it is!

No. 2 is really quite simple. We, today, have something similar. It’s called a Plenary Indulgence. Our Lord simply removed all of the debt of punishment owed for the sins the good thief had committed. We can receive a plenary indulence, too, under specified conditions. We can choose to apply that plenary indulgence to any soul in Purgatory.

 

[Myqyl]

Also, there is some debate as to what his crime actually was. I’ve seen translations that claimed he was crucified for rebellion against Rome. It is unlikely the Romans would have much interest in a common thief. Also, the fact that the Romans crucified him does not mean he was guilty of a crime… After all, look at who he was crucified with…

We don’t know the curcumstances… Only our Lord’s decision. I trust that Jesus had His reasons and that’s enough for me.

Hope that helps… God bless.

 

[Todd_Easton]

Concerning your question about the Good Thief and Purgatory, Christians who go to Purgatory when they die go there to be cleansed of any remaining temporal punishment due to post-baptismal sins. Any sins they committed before receiving the graces of baptism are completely forgiven when they receive the graces of baptism, including all temporal punishment due to sin. If a person dies after receiving the graces of baptism but before he commits a new sin, he goes straight to Heaven. There are three ways to receive the graces of baptism, by receiving the rite of Christian baptism, through so-called baptism by desire, or by undergoing Christian martyrdom, so-called baptism by blood. As I see it, in the case of the Good Thief, he received the graces of baptism in an extraordinary manner by so-called baptism by desire shortly before he died and all his past sins were completely forgiven, he did not commit a new sin after receiving those graces, and when he died he went straight to Paradise (Heaven).

 

[Bob_Crowley]

Friends ,

I’m a tad confused about the meaning of two passages. Can anyone help me by elaborating?

1. When the apostles objected to our Lord’s feet being anointed by expensive oils because they might have been sold to feed the poor, He replied by saying “you have the poor with you always; you do not have me with you always”. Doesn’t this mean that the Eucharist isn’t actually the true flesh of Christ in substance? If He’s literally not with us forever, until He comes again in glory, how can the Eucharist really be His physical presence?
2. When the good thief asked our Lord to look upon him with mercy on the Cross, Christ our Lord said “Amen I say to you: today you shall be in paradise with me”. How can a thief who makes a sudden statement of pure faith leap right over Purgatory and into Heaven? Dismas died on the Cross a thief, or robber, or rebel of some sort, so how could be get directly to paradise just by making a pledge of faith to the Lord? This seems to suggest that there is no Purgatory, because surely if a common criminal can leap right into Heaven, then so can others?

Thank you!

On item 1, Christ simply meant that the apostles would not have His physical presence with them always, whereas the poor will always be with us in physical reality and we can help them whenever we wish.

Of course we have him in the Eucharist, buy He is present spiritually at all times. But He only walked the streets of Jerusalem as a human being for 30 or so years.

On item 2, the church regards the thief on the cross as a special case. He was literally crucified with Christ, yet despite the immense suffering he endured, he gave witness and testimony to Christ right next to Him, and in front of the mocking crowd, Pharisees and Roman authorities. No one other person in history had that “privilege”.

A lot of people have died for Christ, but only one man in all of human history gave testimony for Christ when Christ was Himself being crucified.

 

[Crumpy]

On #1 question:

That whole annointing incident is confusing to me at a couple of levels. The oils were used in more of a common burial custom, not a religious custom, as a practical matter to deodorize the body until burial. This is just a guess. It was irrelevant with respect to Jesus because his bod did not undergo decay in the tomb, while it lay there, until the resurrection.

I’d have to do a lot more study of the whole gospel passage, but maybe this was just a look-ahead to the idea of Jesus dying soon. Maybe the action shows that the woman understood the trajectory that Jesus was on towards the cross, that his mission was not totally misunderstood.

It’s too late to annoint a body for the purpose of showing affection to the person who has departed, so this action was–perhaps-- to show that affection before Jesus departed, in death.

Personally, I wouldn’t see the meaning as overlapping anything that has to do with the Eucharist, or as contradicting it under any sense of meaning.

 

[brb3]

Friends ,

1. When the good thief asked our Lord to look upon him with mercy on the Cross, Christ our Lord said “Amen I say to you: today you shall be in paradise with me”. How can a thief who makes a sudden statement of pure faith leap right over Purgatory and into Heaven?

This seems to suggest that there is no Purgatory, because surely if a common criminal can leap right into Heaven, then so can others?

All new converts are FULLY FORGIVEN off ALL sins … Plenary Forgiveness. Also, all veteran Christians also receive FULL ‘Plenary’ Forgiveness… when they make Full Confession of all Mortals & Venials, and shortly thereafter see death. You can certainly see where this applied to those who suffered & died the Martyr’s death. When a Christian has a few minutes time to prepare for a certain death … they can realize full contrition/repentance before their Lord.

Now, for those of us who go to sleep each night w/o knowing our time of death. The Church offers us to the means to obtain a full, plenary indulgence of all sins and avoid Purgatory. It take about 45 minutes to clear oneself of daily sin ----- [Bible reading for 30 minutes, prayer to Christ for forgiveness of daily sins, weekly receipt of Eucharist, Annual Confession to a Priest, and daily prayer offered for our Pope & Church]

 

[Evan]

On question 2. We don’t know if the Thief had to spend time in Purgatory. For, in our timeline, Purgatory may only last a second. Once dead, time is no longer as we know it. Everyone who dies, my experience Purgatory in an instant, with all that is required to be cleansed for a Heavenly meeting with Christ.

 

[Evan]

Now, for those of us who go to sleep each night w/o knowing our time of death. The Church offers us to the means to obtain a full, plenary indulgence of all sins and avoid Purgatory. It take about 45 minutes to clear oneself of daily sin ----- [Bible reading for 30 minutes, prayer to Christ for forgiveness of daily sins, weekly receipt of Eucharist, Annual Confession to a Priest, and daily prayer offered for our Pope & Church]

For a plenary indulgence, confession must be recent (I’ve seen estimates of 1 or 2 weeks before or after the prescribed actions)

You also must be free of the influence of sin or something like that. That is the one part of a plenary indulgence that is hard to guage.

 

[ignatius777]

Friends ,

I’m a tad confused about the meaning of two passages. Can anyone help me by elaborating?

1. When the apostles objected to our Lord’s feet being anointed by expensive oils because they might have been sold to feed the poor, He replied by saying “you have the poor with you always; you do not have me with you always”. Doesn’t this mean that the Eucharist isn’t actually the true flesh of Christ in substance? If He’s literally not with us forever, until He comes again in glory, how can the Eucharist really be His physical presence?
2. When the good thief asked our Lord to look upon him with mercy on the Cross, Christ our Lord said “Amen I say to you: today you shall be in paradise with me”. How can a thief who makes a sudden statement of pure faith leap right over Purgatory and into Heaven? Dismas died on the Cross a thief, or robber, or rebel of some sort, so how could be get directly to paradise just by making a pledge of faith to the Lord? This seems to suggest that there is no Purgatory, because surely if a common criminal can leap right into Heaven, then so can others?

Thank you!

#1 Jesus doesnt say “I” am not there with you always He says “YOU” do not have me with you always. Do you see the difference? Do you ALWAYS behave as Jesus would behave in EVERY situation? This does not contradict the real presence of Jesus in the Eucharist it enhances it. When we are in His presence we should be FULLY there with Him and not allow our minds to wander.

#2 If we die in a state of grace then yes we go to heaven. If we make a full and good confession and drop dead as we walk out of reconciliation then we die in a state of grace and if its a good and full confession then we are fit for heaven. Where else would we go?

 

[Waiting]

For a plenary indulgence, confession must be recent (I’ve seen estimates of 1 or 2 weeks before or after the prescribed actions)

You also must be free of the influence of sin or something like that. That is the one part of a plenary indulgence that is hard to guage.

Confession ffor a plenary indulgence must be either one week before or one week after the indulgence. You may gain a daily plenary indulgence if you receive the Sacrament of Reconciliation every two weeks. However, to gain a plenary indulgence you must also say a prayer for the Holy Father’s intention. In addition, you have a choice of either saying a rosary in Church, or with others anywhere. If you cannot say the rosary in Church or with others, you may read the Bible for a half hour a day to gain the indulgence.

And, as stated by Evan, you need to be free of the attraction to sin. In other words, if you continually commit the same sin and make no effort to curb that sin, you are not free of the attraction to that sin. The plenary indulgence would not take effect.

 

[brb3]

And, as stated by Evan, you need to be free of the attraction to sin. In other words, if you continually commit the same sin and make no effort to curb that sin, you are not free of the attraction to that sin. The plenary indulgence would not take effect.

Good point.

In Christ we can move [sin] mountains. So, if we don’t reform our old habits, we are not truly in state of Grace.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

About the thief on the cross, I’d imagine Jesus had the authority to bypass purgatory.

Also, since the one with the most sins forgiven loves the most, so it’s also possible that one word from Jesus and all the negative is reversed.

Being a “common criminal” doesn’t mean your heart is any better or worse than anyone else’s. It just means that your personal types of sins can be noticed by others. Most people are OK with making a surface judgment.

I’m not sure what the technical terms mean exactly, and how they can be applied, but I’m convinced you can go through purgatory on this earth. But even though you cannot complete the fourth, or “perfect” stage of spiritual growth, you can start it while you’re here.

Also, I’d like to suggest that “paradise” could actually be accessible to us while still on the earth. I’ve been gifted with tremendous peace and joy, through love of God and others, that however it feels in paradise is going to be pretty great if it’s better than how I feel now.

Alan

 

[inkaneer]

Friends ,

I’m a tad confused about the meaning of two passages. Can anyone help me by elaborating?

1. When the apostles objected to our Lord’s feet being anointed by expensive oils because they might have been sold to feed the poor, He replied by saying “you have the poor with you always; you do not have me with you always”. Doesn’t this mean that the Eucharist isn’t actually the true flesh of Christ in substance? If He’s literally not with us forever, until He comes again in glory, how can the Eucharist really be His physical presence?
2. When the good thief asked our Lord to look upon him with mercy on the Cross, Christ our Lord said “Amen I say to you: today you shall be in paradise with me”. How can a thief who makes a sudden statement of pure faith leap right over Purgatory and into Heaven? Dismas died on the Cross a thief, or robber, or rebel of some sort, so how could be get directly to paradise just by making a pledge of faith to the Lord? This seems to suggest that there is no Purgatory, because surely if a common criminal can leap right into Heaven, then so can others?

Thank you!

Answer to question #1. Christ is with us in the Eucharist body and blood,soul and divinity spiritually. He says so in John 6 when He says, “The flesh availeth nothing, My words are spirit.”

Answer to question #2. What makes you thing “Paradise” is heaven? I think “paradise” is Purgatory. Jesus tells Dismas that he would be with Jesus in Paradise that day. Jesus did not go to heaven that day [Good Friday]. On Easter Sunday He tells Mary not to touch Him because He had not yet risen to the Father. So where was Jesus and Dismas between Good Friday and Easter Sunday? The Creed tells us of Jesus after His crucifixion, “He descended into hell…”. He preached to the OT saints who were waiting to enter heaven No one beat Jesus into heaven. Not Dismas, nor John the Baptist nor anyone else. Paradise is not heaven it is Purgatory.

 

[johnbres2]

Friends ,

I’m a tad confused about the meaning of two passages. Can anyone help me by elaborating?

1. When the apostles objected to our Lord’s feet being anointed by expensive oils because they might have been sold to feed the poor, He replied by saying “you have the poor with you always; you do not have me with you always”. Doesn’t this mean that the Eucharist isn’t actually the true flesh of Christ in substance? If He’s literally not with us forever, until He comes again in glory, how can the Eucharist really be His physical presence?
2. When the good thief asked our Lord to look upon him with mercy on the Cross, Christ our Lord said “Amen I say to you: today you shall be in paradise with me”. How can a thief who makes a sudden statement of pure faith leap right over Purgatory and into Heaven? Dismas died on the Cross a thief, or robber, or rebel of some sort, so how could be get directly to paradise just by making a pledge of faith to the Lord? This seems to suggest that there is no Purgatory, because surely if a common criminal can leap right into Heaven, then so can others?

Thank you!

Question 1. Just because Jesus is present as the Eucharist does not mean it is the same thing as having him here in his human form. Obviously we can’t have the Eucharist over for lunch, talk to him and anoint His feet with oils. Come on, man! Use a little common sense!

Question 2: Have you or any of the other responders considered that perhaps Jesus meant what he said? Jesus does not have to wait to be with the Father until after he ascends. You cannot place a limit on God. Whether you believe the “He descended into Hell” part of the creed or not, Jesus as God is omnipresent (“I and the Father are one.”) Purgatory is not Paradise. Jesus does not throw around words like Paradise lightly. It is reasonable to conclude that Jesus and the thief were in Paradise together after they had died, on that day. The thief not only proclaimed his faith, but did works as well (preaching the Lord to the other thief and all other persons in earshot). Catholic extra-biblical doctrine is great and all, but you only have to look to extra-biblical doctrine if the text itself is not clear. Jesus’ statement was perfectly clear.