Measuring the Effects of Being Catholic?

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switalabe

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Hi,

Is it possible to measure the effect of being Catholic? If yes, what is the effect? Are any studies done on this question?

I’m under the impression (having read this IIRC) that Catholics statistically don’t do better than non-Catholics in a lot of areas of life, like rates of adultery, murder, and so on. But I have also read that Catholics have lower rates of addictions and suicides.

However, I might have read that that applies to Christians in general and not Catholics specifically.

Anyway, I was wondering, how do we measure the effect of being Catholic? Is it even possible? Don’t we believe that the sacraments make an actual impact on someone’s life? If that’s the case, shouldn’t we be able to measure it? It doesn’t seem to me that “Catholics are better off” is part of the common knowledge, why is that?

Thanks
 
I don’t think you can put an objective quantifiable “measure” on grace.
 
switalabe said:
Is it possible to measure the effect of being Catholic?
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Sure. The Church has a formal, four-part system for measuring this. The system has been around since the earliest days of the Church, and was more formally defined more than a millennium ago, and it has not changed significantly since then. It is always going on.

The system is sometimes (somewhat improperly) referred to as Canonization, but this is actually the final step in the four-step process, where someone is declared a Saint of the Church. Prior to Sainthood, a candidate usually passes through three other steps (Servant of God → Venerable → Blessed).

If you want to find out about the effects of being Catholic, pick a Saint (any Saint). Judge the Church by Her Saints (the people who uphold Her teachings), not by Her sinners (who do not).
 
switalabe said:
Hi,

Is it possible to measure the effect of being Catholic? If yes, what is the effect? Are any studies done on this question?

I’m under the impression (having read this IIRC) that Catholics statistically don’t do better than non-Catholics in a lot of areas of life, like rates of adultery, murder, and so on. But I have also read that Catholics have lower rates of addictions and suicides.

However, I might have read that that applies to Christians in general and not Catholics specifically.

Anyway, I was wondering, how do we measure the effect of being Catholic? Is it even possible? Don’t we believe that the sacraments make an actual impact on someone’s life? If that’s the case, shouldn’t we be able to measure it? It doesn’t seem to me that “Catholics are better off” is part of the common knowledge, why is that?

Thanks
Click to expand...
Great question. Here’s my humble contribution:
  1. It is simply un-quantifiable, for a variety of reasons.
  2. “Being Catholic” provides ZERO guarantees, as “being Catholic” has such a broad application. E.g.–1.2 Billion “Catholics” doesn’t mean there are 1.2 Billion people who believe in the Catholic Church, keep her teachings, and follow Christ through her. It means that 1.2 Billion countable souls have been baptized into the Church (most of them infants). Many have turned their backs on the Church, lapsed, or otherwise fallen away. Most of us are sinners and hypocrites (yes, I include myself amongst this number), and many if not most, are incredibly under (or mal-) catechized.
Hence, “being Catholic” can be meaningless, for those who don’t even know what “being Catholic” entails–bringing to mind GK Chesterton’s famous quote: “The Christian ideal has not been tried and found wanting. It has been found difficult; and left untried.” To know what ‘the Christian ideal’ looks like, look at Blessed Mother Theresa and Pope John Paul II, the Great. That they stand out so starkly against their own times, speaks precisely to the difficulty of that ideal of which Chesterton writes. Consequently, attempting to discern secular or objectively quantifiable attributes, is simply futile, as there are entirely too many moving parts, too many variables, to be able to draw any meaningful correlative or causative conclusions.
  1. Even though the Catholic Church and her prominent leaders have proven imperfect, fallible, even corrupt in many instances (as have prominent leaders of every religion on the planet, throughout history)—this does not not serve to render Christ’s work, in establishing His Church, flawed or wrong–it is rather testament to the fallen nature of to whom He entrusted it; but He has insured that the deposit of Faith would remain, in spite of this fallen nature, via the Holy Spirit. Hence, though the parts may falter (as when one gets sick), the integrity of the Body of Christ remains intact. This was and remains, Christ’s guarantee.
  2. For all her flaws, the Catholic Church has stood, and stands, as a beacon of hope and enlightenment for the world, pointing to Christ. For all the sinners and hypocrites she has sought to bring to Christ, and to salvation, but failed–she has also succeeded in her mission, infinitely more so than any other institution. Looking through her 2000 year history, you see her fruits: the cultural icons of so many magnificent Cathedrals that anchor so many cultural centers; so many universities (the ‘university’ itself, for that matter); such wonderful art; and by far, so much more importantly, so many great PEOPLE–the Saints: from Sts Peter, Paul, John, and St. Joseph, through St. Jerome, St. Augustine, St. Nicholas, St. Thomas Aquinas, St. Francis of Assisi, St. Dominic, St. Ignatius of Loyola, St. Teresa of Avila, St. John of the Cross, St. Bernard of Clairvaux, St. Joan of Arc, St. Therese of Lisieux, Blessed Mother Theresa, et. al… after whom so many great cities and churches–and people! have been named, due to the enormity of the inspiration they provided to the people they served–through the Church that Christ founded and bequeathed to us.
Through her guidance, the Lord has communicated via divine revelation, such Truth as the Gospel, the Trinity, the economy of salvation, the Sacraments, and the New Testament Cannon (thus completing the Bible)–and through this new scripture, the Salvation Narrative, and the foundation and identity of the ‘Pillar of Truth’ (i.e.–the One True Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church that Christ Himself founded).

Finally, from my own personal vantage point–my parents gave me much growing up; I enjoyed a blessed and abundant childhood, filled with love. As I matured and grew older, and assessed my blessings and my state of life…after having drifted away from my Catholic faith foundation…as I met more people, and had more life experiences…one thing stood head and shoulders above the rest–education, work ethic, societal connections included–upon looking back–the Catholic faith they passed on to me. That Catholic faith was and remains, by far, the greatest gift they gave me.

…and the more time passes, the more evil I witness of this world, and of Man, the greater my appreciation of that anchor of stability, that pillar of truth, that beacon of hope, that is the Catholic Church–and the more I study her teachings, scripture, and the Saints…the more I ‘get’ her.

…and that’s just not something you can track quantitatively.

FWIW/JMHO.
 
Interesting question :hmmm:

I think the most important effect is what is experienced in the next life, yes?

If we’re trying to point people to the Catholic Church on the basis of all the good stuff people will have in this life (e.g., wealth, near-perfect relationships, mental health), we’re kind of missing the whole point of our faith.

As David said above, look to the lives of the Saints for examples of effects of being Catholic. But note that most of their lives were not “successful” by worldly terms, and most of what they sought in this life was not what most people in the world want or seek.

I’m sorry I don’t have any studies I can refer you to. Along with searching Google, you might also go to a local college/university library and check their computer databases for research articles on this subject. Most of the peer-reviewed research out there is not available to the general public without a subscription to the journal in which the research is published. By using a library computer at a college/university, you will have access to the thousands of journals to which they are subscribed. 👍

Thanks for asking the question – something to think about while I’m working in the house and yard today.

God bless you!

Gertie
 
ahs said:
I don’t think you can put an objective quantifiable “measure” on grace.
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This is exactly what I was going to say.

There is however, one way which the monks taught me - an habitual attitude to pray for those who hurt you and an absence of anger is a sign that you might be on the right path to God. we cannot discern this for ourselves but need a director.

-Tim-
 
switalabe said:
Hi,

Is it possible to measure the effect of being Catholic? If yes, what is the effect? Are any studies done on this question?

I’m under the impression (having read this IIRC) that Catholics statistically don’t do better than non-Catholics in a lot of areas of life, like rates of adultery, murder, and so on. But I have also read that Catholics have lower rates of addictions and suicides.

However, I might have read that that applies to Christians in general and not Catholics specifically.

Anyway, I was wondering, how do we measure the effect of being Catholic? Is it even possible? Don’t we believe that the sacraments make an actual impact on someone’s life? If that’s the case, shouldn’t we be able to measure it? It doesn’t seem to me that “Catholics are better off” is part of the common knowledge, why is that?

Thanks
Click to expand...
The sacraments make an actual impact on our lives according to how prayerfully receptive we are to them.
 
switalabe said:
Hi,

Is it possible to measure the effect of being Catholic? If yes, what is the effect? Are any studies done on this question?

I’m under the impression (having read this IIRC) that Catholics statistically don’t do better than non-Catholics in a lot of areas of life, like rates of adultery, murder, and so on. But I have also read that Catholics have lower rates of addictions and suicides.

However, I might have read that that applies to Christians in general and not Catholics specifically.

Anyway, I was wondering, how do we measure the effect of being Catholic? Is it even possible? Don’t we believe that the sacraments make an actual impact on someone’s life? If that’s the case, shouldn’t we be able to measure it? It doesn’t seem to me that “Catholics are better off” is part of the common knowledge, why is that?

Thanks
Click to expand...
There is perhaps a way - economic time series. If you look at countries in Europe, especially pre the decline in Christianity, I would have said that European countries that are predominantly Catholic - e.g. Spain, Italy, Ireland, France had been the laggards economically, while predominantly Protestant countries such as England, Germany, Switzerland, Holland, Sweden etc. have done very well economically. This was true especially post Spain’s loss of the new world to the British. The Netherlands rose, followed by Britain and Germany. I believe this was down to the Protestant work ethic and the enlightenment that followed the reformation.

I notice this still to be true in GDP per capita terms. A very recent exception would be Irelands brief rise in the 1990s until the credit crisis brought them down.
 
crai7 said:
There is perhaps a way - economic time series. If you look at countries in Europe, especially pre the decline in Christianity, I would have said that European countries that are predominantly Catholic - e.g. Spain, Italy, Ireland, France had been the laggards economically, while predominantly Protestant countries such as England, Germany, Switzerland, Holland, Sweden etc. have done very well economically. This was true especially post Spain’s loss of the new world to the British. The Netherlands rose, followed by Britain and Germany. I believe this was down to the Protestant work ethic and the enlightenment that followed the reformation.

I notice this still to be true in GDP per capita terms. A very recent exception would be Irelands brief rise in the 1990s until the credit crisis brought them down.
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Ahhhhhh…the Gospel of prosperity.

So, Christ who came to us poor, and preached to the poor…who actually said that “…It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God…” (Mt. 19:24)…that’s how we measure the efficacy of the Gospel of Christ? Per capita income??? GDP???

Mega-Pastor Joel Osteen would certainly be proud of your profound analysis here.

Maybe not Christ Himself, but what did He know, right? Poor, humble, carpenter that He was… I mean…can anything good come from Nazareth (John 1:46), anyway?

:rolleyes:
 
crai7 said:
There is perhaps a way - economic time series. If you look at countries in Europe, especially pre the decline in Christianity, I would have said that European countries that are predominantly Catholic - e.g. Spain, Italy, Ireland, France had been the laggards economically, while predominantly Protestant countries such as England, Germany, Switzerland, Holland, Sweden etc. have done very well economically. This was true especially post Spain’s loss of the new world to the British. The Netherlands rose, followed by Britain and Germany. I believe this was down to the Protestant work ethic and the enlightenment that followed the reformation.

I notice this still to be true in GDP per capita terms. A very recent exception would be Irelands brief rise in the 1990s until the credit crisis brought them down.
Click to expand...
…while we’re at it…

How about these famous Catholic Saints?

St’s Gregory the Great, Ambrose, Augustine of Hippo, Jerome, John Chrysostom, Basil of Caesarea, Gregory of Nazianzus, Athanasius of Alexandria, Cyril of Alexandria, Cyril of Jerusalem, John of Damascus, Bede the Venerable, Ephrem the Syrian, Thomas Aquinas, Bonaventure, Anselm of Canterbury, Isidore of Seville, Peter Chrysologus, Leo the Great, Peter Damian, Bernard of Clairvaux, Hilary of Poitiers, Alphonsus Liguori, Francis de Sales, Peter Canisius, John of the Cross, Robert Bellarmine, Albertus Magnus, Anthony of Padua, Lawrence of Brindisi, Teresa of Ávila, Catherine of Siena, Thérèse of Lisieux, Hildegard of Bingen, Gregory of Narek…inter alia…

Or these famous Catholic scientists?

Galileo Galilei, René Descartes, Nicolas Copernicus, Louis Pasteur, Blaise Pascal, André-Marie Ampère, Gregor Mendel, Charles-Augustin de Coulomb, Pierre de Fermat, Antoine Laurent Lavoisier, Marin Mersenne, Alessandro Volta, Augustin-Louis Cauchy, Pierre Duhem, Jean-Baptiste Dumas, Roger Boscovich, Pierre Gassendi, and Georgius Agricola…inter alia…

Henry Ford, who gave us the automobile?

Johann Gutenberg, inventor, father of the printed word…

Simon Bolivar, “El Libertador”, Spanish Americas hero…

Christopher Columbus, Spanish explorer, discoverer of the Americas…

Fernan de Magellan ( Portuguese/Spanish navigator, the first expedition around the globe)…

Hernan Cortez, Ponce de Leon, inter alia…

Ferdinand & Isabella…former King & Queen of Spain…

Charlemagne…

Constantine…

Napoleon…

Evita Peron…

Oscar Schindler…

Blessed Mother Theresa…

Plenty of others, though this will have to suffice for now.
 
switalabe said:
Napoleon?
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:o I actually hesitated on him a bit, but he was a significant historical figure, and aside from his military prowess for which he is best know, he was also very instrumental in ending feudalism, establishing of legal equality, championing religious tolerance, of course, the Napoleonic Code, which has had a profound and enduring impact on western civilization in general. So I left him in. :cool:

…though, speaking of frenchies… I see I missed Joan of Arc (and frankly countless others; it was just a hodge podge, cut and paste throw together list assembled on the run; I have a much more comprehensive list somewhere on my hard drive at my office…maybe if I have the time, I’ll dig it out and post it).
 
Good luck
You won’t be able to fund a study that could be useful to answer this question.
 
How about this for a saying:

“Man can’t measure God, but God measures us.”
 
How about this for a saying:

“Man can’t measure God, but God measures us.”

or

“I can’t measure being Christian, but being Christian measures me.”
 
Some people say that religion makes people oppose science. Religious people usually respond with examples of famous religious scientists.

That’s all well and good, I don’t think that Catholic teaching is at all opposed to scientific inquiry. However, the culture within religious circles is somewhat anti-science in a rather subtle way, and here in this thread we have a perfect example. The culture does not say that science is bad, it simply tends to not bother to get scientific (name removed by moderator)ut on questions where scientific (name removed by moderator)ut is clearly relevant. When asked why science is being ignored, a brief hand-waving “it’s a religious matter,” or “it’s just common sense” excuse is offered.

There are a wide variety of things we could clearly, unambiguously, and uncontroversially measure that might differ between Catholics and other religions. For example: average educational level of members, divorce rate, representation in the prison population, self-reported life satisfaction, rates of STDs, charitable giving, or median incomes. We could then investigate if Catholicism actually had a causal role for those measures where Catholics were different.

Despite the existence of such obvious things to measure, posters here have instead invented a wide variety of reasons for thinking that “measuring” effects of Catholicism is inappropriate or impossible. This is not the traditional picture of anti-scientific thinking, where science is viewed as evil, but a more subtle denial of the usefulness of science in any subjects related to religion. Certainly there are questions related to religion which science can’t answer (e.g. measuring whether a soul is saved or not) but outward effects of Catholicism is clearly not one of them.
 
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