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rcwitness
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Yes, and no. We turn back to Him, who we rejected. He is already forgiving us, and even already compelling us to turn from our sins! But repentance/confession of sins (particularly serious offenses) cannot be in isolated from the body, since it affects the body as well!If I realized at any time during the activities of the day that I had failed I was taught that I can talk to Jesus anytime and ask for His forgiveness and that He would be eager to grant it to me instantly.
So the question becomes: Does Christ compel you to reconcile with His Church as well? And is it a condition of His forgiveness?
Your community tells you this because they know they do not have the gift of Absolution. Yet, I’m sure there are degrees of genuine forgiveness received in your genuine faith.
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Wannano
Guest
They might not call it The Gift of Absolution or whatever but I definitely know that when someone confesses a sin to the whole church in front of e everyone there have been wonderful times of forgiveness and restoration. In any of the times I witnessed this event I have always seen 100% degrees of genuine forgiveness within the body of beleivers.Yes, and no. We turn back to Him, who we rejected. He is already forgiving us, and even already compelling us to turn from our sins! But repentance/confession of sins (particularly serious offenses) cannot be in isolated from the body, since it affects the body as well!
So in the Catholic Church a serious sin (let’s say I was caught in adultery) which would affect the whole body, when confessed I would confess to the whole church or just to the priest?
So the question becomes: Does Christ compel you to reconcile with His Church as well? And is it a condition of His forgiveness?
Again is confessing to a priest reconciling me to the Church?
Your community tells you this because they know they do not have the gift of Absolution. Yet, I’m sure there are degrees of genuine forgiveness received in your genuine faith.
J
jmcrae
Guest
It is “grave matter.” The conditions for a mortal sin are:Thank you for replying, I have no hard feelings, hopefully no one else does either.
I understand defensiveness, I have experienced it here my self at Protestant ridicule.:sad_yes:
I can ask the questions straight up:
Question 1. Does the Catholic Church teach that it is a mortal sin to eat meat on Good Friday?
- Grave matter. (yes.)
- Knowledge that it is grave matter. (Did the person know that they weren’t supposed to be eating meat on Good Friday?)
- Free decision and full intent. (The person knew that they weren’t supposed to be eating meat, there were non-meat alternatives available, and they went ahead and ate meat anyway.)
Yes.Question 2. Does the Catholic Church currently teach this? CCC 1033 “to die in mortal sin without repenting and accepting God’s merciful love means remaining separated from Him forever by our own free choice”.
Yes, we certainly believe that Hell is real. The visionaries at Fatima saw souls falling into Hell as thick and fast as snowflakes in a November blizzard. That was in 1917; I can only imagine that the situation has not improved. Most of the people in Hell were not expecting to go there, but were unable to enter into Heaven because they had hardened themselves against the will of God through repetitive practice throughout their lives.As a result of previous replies I will ask another question:
Question 3. Does the Catholic Church teach that to be separated from God eternally means hell exists?
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rcwitness
Guest
Yes, I agree. Is this necessary, though? Or can we keep a serious sin a secret from our “brother” and pray privately to Jesus only?They might not call it The Gift of Absolution or whatever but I definitely know that when someone confesses a sin to the whole church in front of e everyone there have been wonderful times of forgiveness and restoration. In any of the times I witnessed this event I have always seen 100% degrees of genuine forgiveness within the body of beleivers.
We believe He calls us to confess to His “minister of Reconciliation” at minimum. And so Absolution is confirmed through him. It is praying directly to Jesus, with an ordained Christian present.
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Wannano
Guest
I think if the dirty laundry has not become public knowledge where it reflected badly on the church and community then it can be dealt with privately to Jesus.Yes, I agree. Is this necessary, though? Or can we keep a serious sin a secret from our “brother” and pray privately to Jesus only?
We believe He calls us to confess to His “minister of Reconciliation” at minimum. And so Absolution is confirmed through him. It is praying directly to Jesus, with an ordained Christian present.
You might have missed my questions on the previous post when I messed up the format. I was asking if confessing to a priest fulfills the obligation of Confessing to the whole church?Are there scripture verses that the action in your last paragraph are based on or is it stemming from tradition ?
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rcwitness
Guest
John 20I think if the dirty laundry has not become public knowledge where it reflected badly on the church and community then it can be dealt with privately to Jesus.
You might have missed my questions on the previous post when I messed up the format. I was asking if confessing to a priest fulfills the obligation of Confessing to the whole church?Are there scripture verses that the action in your last paragraph are based on or is it stemming from tradition ?
Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.”22And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit.23If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.”
2 Cor. 2
But if any one has caused pain, he has caused it not to me, but in some measure—not to put it too severely—to you all.6For such a one this punishment by the majority is enough;7so you should rather turn to forgive and comfort him, or he may be overwhelmed by excessive sorrow.8So I beg you to reaffirm your love for him.9For this is why I wrote, that I might test you and know whether you are obedient in everything.10Any one whom you forgive, I also forgive. What I have forgiven, if I have forgiven anything, has been for your sake in the presence of Christ (or in the person),11to keep Satan from gaining the advantage over us; for we are not ignorant of his designs.
James 5
Is any among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord;**and the prayer of faith will save the sick man, and the Lord will raise him up; and if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven.*Therefore confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed.
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Wannano
Guest
Yes, and no. We turn back to Him, who we rejected. He is already forgiving us, and even already compelling us to turn from our sins! But repentance/confession of sins (particularly serious offenses) cannot be in isolated from the body, since it affects the body as well!
So the question becomes: Does Christ compel you to reconcile with His Church as well? And is it a condition of His forgiveness? (Quote)
So what is your answer to your own questions?
Also you have not answered my question…a serious sin than cannot be isolated from the body since it affects the body, in your world does confessing it to your priest reconcile you with the Church? Is confession ever made to the whole affected body?
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rcwitness
Guest
Yes. You can’t have one without the other. Chris and His Church are one.So what is your answer to your own questions?
Also you have not answered my question…a serious sin than cannot be isolated from the body since it affects the body, in your world does confessing it to your priest reconcile you with the Church?
A “public” confession may happen in ways, such as testimonies or books. A confession to a Priest, is a confession to Jesus (who is present via Sacrament) and the Priest (who represents the Church).Is confession ever made to the whole affected body?
This is how I, personally, understand it.
C
clem456
Guest
Hypotheticals don’t often make for productive discussion. Hypotheticals lead to speculation and unfounded accusations.It is Good Friday and I have been reading about eating meat on Good Friday. If I understand the Catholic position the following scenario would be accurate:
A Catholic in good standing with the Church walks by a steak house on Good Friday and is suddenly tempted to have a good rib eye steak. He thinks about his temptation to eat the steak and admits to himself that he knows it is a mortal sin to succumb to his craving today but he willfully decides to eat one anyway. After he is finished eating he gets up from the table feeling very satisfied and immediately drops dead. No thought of confession or chance of confession occured. Does the Church teach that he would immediately have sent himself to Hell with this action?
Your question takes on an almost magical tone. A person destined for heaven with a life of virtue takes a tragic turn, makes one bad decision about meat on Good Friday and goes to hell. How does he make an intentionally ill-willed choice like that if he is of good will?
If he is habitually Ill-willed then you have your answer. He is practiced in his vice.
Hell is chosen. It is no accident or sudden tragic event, as if the fates suddenly have their way with a person.
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Wannano
Guest
How, why do we make those choices? I will confess it has happened to me. I wonder if Peter didn’t ask that a lot after he denied Christ.Hypotheticals don’t often make for productive discussion. Hypotheticals lead to speculation and unfounded accusations.
Your question takes on an almost magical tone. A person destined for heaven with a life of virtue takes a tragic turn, makes one bad decision about meat on Good Friday and goes to hell. How does he make an intentionally ill-willed choice like that if he is of good will?
If he is habitually Ill-willed then you have your answer. He is practiced in his vice.
Hell is chosen. It is no accident or sudden tragic event, as if the fates suddenly have their way with a person.
J
jmcrae
Guest
Because he was not thoroughly practiced in the habits of virtue. Notice how after a lifetime of self discipline he was finally able to go willingly to his martyrdom.How, why do we make those choices? I will confess it has happened to me. I wonder if Peter didn’t ask that a lot after he denied Christ.
C
clem456
Guest
And I guess the point that sticks out is that for this to be mortal, it’s not about the meat.How, why do we make those choices? I will confess it has happened to me. I wonder if Peter didn’t ask that a lot after he denied Christ.
It’s about knowing what you should do, knowing the mortal consequences, and choosing it anyway. Like spitting in God’s face.
Even Peter can claim duress. He didn’t simply deny Jesus out of an active ill-will. Because he loved Jesus, just not with perfection. He denies him out of weakness and fear. (doesn’t lessen the gravity of the act of course)
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RobertAD
Guest
If a person doesn’t know that eating meat on Good Friday is a grave matter, can it still be a mortal sin?And I guess the point that sticks out is that for this to be mortal, it’s not about the meat.
It’s about knowing what you should do, knowing the mortal consequences, and choosing it anyway. Like spitting in God’s face.
Even Peter can claim duress. He didn’t simply deny Jesus out of an active ill-will. Because he loved Jesus, just not with perfection. He denies him out of weakness and fear. (doesn’t lessen the gravity of the act of course)
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GodsGrace154
Guest
Wannano has a good point. Is it Jesus that makes up the rules we are to follow, or can a priest or the magesterium make them up?And I guess the point that sticks out is that for this to be mortal, it’s not about the meat.
It’s about knowing what you should do, knowing the mortal consequences, and choosing it anyway. Like spitting in God’s face.
Even Peter can claim duress. He didn’t simply deny Jesus out of an active ill-will. Because he loved Jesus, just not with perfection. He denies him out of weakness and fear. (doesn’t lessen the gravity of the act of course)
God gave us the 10 commandments and they are to be followed.
If the church makes up a rule, MUST it be followed and if it’s not, to the consequence of ending up in hell?? There seems to be something unjust here, and God is very just.
You say that Peter committed a grave act. Jesus knew Peter was going to deny Him 3 times before daybreak. But Peter denied KNOWING Jesus out of fear, he didn’t deny JESUS. IOW, Peter still loved Jesus, he didn’t deny him and walk away from him. God knows our heart and Peter’s heart was with the Lord.
Also, it does seem to me that sinning does NOT detach one from God. We all sin, every day and more than once a day. What detaches us from God is our conscious will to no longer desire to follow Him. To continue to walk in His direction, to not abandon Him.
I believe the church will eventually get farther and farther away from the idea that one could commit one mortal sin and end up in hell. The bible does not teach me this and if you have a scripture proving this, I’d be interested in knowing it.
If you are using Tradition, fine. But one should not be threatened with hell for not following Tradition but only for not following Jesus, who is our salvation.
GG
J
jmcrae
Guest
No.If a person doesn’t know that eating meat on Good Friday is a grave matter, can it still be a mortal sin?
J
jmcrae
Guest
First, the Church doesn’t “make up” rules. The laws of fasting come from God; how they are applied is the task of the Church. (Matt. 16:18-19)Wannano has a good point. Is it Jesus that makes up the rules we are to follow, or can a priest or the magesterium make them up?
God gave us the 10 commandments and they are to be followed.
If the church makes up a rule, MUST it be followed and if it’s not, to the consequence of ending up in hell?? There seems to be something unjust here, and God is very just.
The entire Holy Tradition comes from God, and it is the role of the Churchas our instructor to teach us how to apply these things in our lives. The Church’s requirements are not all that onerous; I imagine that most serious readers of the Bible fast more than twice a year and do penances more than once a week.
The Church simply gets us all together by providing days when we all do this together, since there is great grace poured out when everyone does it together.
If you are using Tradition, fine. But one should not be threatened with hell for not following Tradition but only for not following Jesus, who is our salvation.
Other than by means of the Tradition, how do you propose that we follow Jesus? The following and the Tradition are one and the same thing - the difference is in whether you are inventing your own, or following what was given by the Apostles.
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guanophore
Guest
“It was for this He called you through our gospel, that you may gain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught, whether by word of mouth or by letter from us.” 2 Thess. 2:15Wannano has a good point. Is it Jesus that makes up the rules we are to follow, or can a priest or the magesterium make them up?
God gave us the 10 commandments and they are to be followed.
If the church makes up a rule, MUST it be followed and if it’s not, to the consequence of ending up in hell?? There seems to be something unjust here, and God is very just.
You say that Peter committed a grave act. Jesus knew Peter was going to deny Him 3 times before daybreak. But Peter denied KNOWING Jesus out of fear, he didn’t deny JESUS. IOW, Peter still loved Jesus, he didn’t deny him and walk away from him. God knows our heart and Peter’s heart was with the Lord.
Also, it does seem to me that sinning does NOT detach one from God. We all sin, every day and more than once a day. What detaches us from God is our conscious will to no longer desire to follow Him. To continue to walk in His direction, to not abandon Him.
I believe the church will eventually get farther and farther away from the idea that one could commit one mortal sin and end up in hell. The bible does not teach me this and if you have a scripture proving this, I’d be interested in knowing it.
If you are using Tradition, fine. But one should not be threatened with hell for not following Tradition but only for not following Jesus, who is our salvation.
GG
Sacred Tradition is the Word of God living in the Church, equal with Scripture, which is the Sacred Traditions that have been written.
These should not be confused with the traditions of men, which are fine, so long as they don’t contradict God’s commandments. What God has given is on another level than man made “rules”.
Paul gives an example of Sacred Tradition here:
"… hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain. 3For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures,… I Cor. 15:3
This Sacred Tradition is what the Apostles believed and taught. It is the Word of God living in the Church. Many of these Sacred Traditions, like this one, have been woven into creeds.
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RobertAD
Guest
If a person doesn’t know that eating meat on Good Friday is a grave matter, can it still be a mortal sin?
Thank you.
G
GodsGrace154
Guest
I can understand that it’s nice to worship together and it can be very edifying.First, the Church doesn’t “make up” rules. The laws of fasting come from God; how they are applied is the task of the Church. (Matt. 16:18-19)
The entire Holy Tradition comes from God, and it is the role of the Churchas our instructor to teach us how to apply these things in our lives. The Church’s requirements are not all that onerous; I imagine that most serious readers of the Bible fast more than twice a year and do penances more than once a week.
The Church simply gets us all together by providing days when we all do this together, since there is great grace poured out when everyone does it together.
What I’m saying is twofold:
- It IS the church dictating when and how to fast. Jesus only said that one is to fast. One is to fast when one is doing so for spiritual reasons - not because the church says to.
Mathew 6:16 Jesus says WHEN we fast, so He did expect his disciples, and by extension us, to fast. He did not mention a specific time.
If the person is fasting for the correct reason, and not because the church has laid down this rule, then I believe something will be gained from it.
- If the church DOES want to impose this rule, that could be fine too. But at the expense of it being a MORTAL sin if one does not adhere??
Yes. This is going too far.
I agree that the church is the instructor on how to apply biblical principles, so:
The instruction should be proper. True fasting should be taught.
It should act as an “instructor” and not as a condemner.
The question to end all questions. The great divide.Other than by means of the Tradition, how do you propose that we follow Jesus? The following and the Tradition are one and the same thing - the difference is in whether you are inventing your own, or following what was given by the Apostles.
Tradition is good, but it MUST adhere to biblical principles or we go way out of line. This is a perfect example. Something good is taken, and turned into a man-made rule with dire consequences if not followed.
Mathew 15:3
"And He answered and said to them, "Why do you yourselves transgress the commandment of God for the sake of your tradition? "
In the above verse, Jesus was telling the pharisees that His disciples could ignore the tradition of men because it was not scriptural. He was referring here to the washing of hands, but it could refer to anything when done by rote instead of with spirituality.
I believe the church is changing in this regard - in following the spirit of the law instead of the letter of the law. Jesus elevated everything to the spiritual.
GG
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