So you don’t think creating a rule saying that one is not to eat meat on any particular day is NOT a MAN-MADE rule?
The Church is much more than that. It is the body of Christ in the world, speaking His Words and doing His work. To be a Catholic is to be incorporated into Christ both visibly and invisibly. It isn’t just a nice group to belong to that happens to worship together.
Correct. That’s why He established the Catholic Church with Peter as our first Pope. “What thou bind on earth I (God) shall bind in Heaven.” (Matt. 16:19) - the Pope makes a rule; God does not admit into Heaven any and all who break that rule. This promise to the Roman Catholic Pope is in the Bible.
Nor would I, and neither would the Church. People between the ages of 18 and 59 who are in good health fast on Good Friday, and the remainder abstain from “carne” meaning, warm-blooded meat. (Fish is cold-blooded, so it is permitted, but it’s certainly not required.)
JC
Jesus established the Catholic church?
People between the ages of 18 and 59 FAST ON GOOD FRIDAY.
The Mass is how the people of Christ’s New Covenant worship together. (See [First Corinthians chapter 11](1 Corinthians 11:17-34))
Yes. The Book of Matthew, chapter 16, and verse 18
The Pope is the Bishop of Rome. The Papacy is in Rome because that is where Peter, our first Pope, was first jailed (thus forcing the headquarters of the Church to change from Jerusalem to Rome) and then martyred (meaning that the Bishop of Rome succeeded him as Pope).
God works through the Pope to make the rules, just as He worked through Moses to give the Ten Commandments.
Matthew 16:19 -
Here’s a link to the story: Numbers 16 - The Revolt of Korah
And doesn’t end there. It continues on in “The Faith of the Early Fathers” by William Jurgens, and “The Sources of Catholic Dogma” by Denzinger, and “The Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma” by Ludwig Ott, which are compilations of the writings of those who came immediately after the Apostles, together with those who came after them - and continuing on up until the present day. The history of the Church isn’t finished yet, and you could become part of it, too, if you were to become a Catholic.
I know lots of Catholics who fast on Good Friday (very few of them know any Protestants in person, as it turns out), and now you know one too, because I do that, too.
I am talking about Latin; not Italian. Two different languages, with certain similarities, but not identical.
JMCRAE
They disagree with how the Church understands this (the Way, Christianity, the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church are all one and the same thing) - just because someone disagrees does not mean that the question has not been settled, years ago. (250 AD; Iraneaus against the Heresies)
Young was a Protestant; of course he would translate it in such a way as to promote Protestant ideas. The original in Greek shows that Peter is the Pope, and that he has authority to bind the Church to the rules that God shows him, and to release the Church from rules that no longer apply to our generation, as shown to him by God.
Does it matter? So long as the Pope gives them to us, and we follow the Pope - that’s the important thing.
That is not what you find when you read the original sources. The Catholic Church as we see it today was already in existence, with not a single “proto-Baptist” in sight, when St. Ignatius of Antioch was being taken away to be eaten by the lions in 110 AD, just five years after the death of St. John the Evangelist on the island of Patmos, and while the four Gospels and the Book of Revelation was just beginning to be made public.
Which it has to keep on doing, over and over again, which is why we need the Pope and the Magisterium. The Bible by itself cannot combat heresy, since the heretics take the Bible and misuse it to promote their false ideas, and then tell people that they aren’t allowed to look to the Holy Tradition to confirm their false interpretations of the Bible.
My apologies - I kept referring to those verses, and you kept skimming past them and ignoring them.
He gave His authority to the Apostles to choose a specific time. It is curious that you interpret this leadership as “dictating” rather than sherpherding. Let me ask you about this example:
Sanctify a fast,
call a solemn assembly.
Gather the elders
and all the inhabitants of the land
to the house of the LORD your God;
and cry to the LORD. Joel 1:14This seems somewhat narrow minded. In fact, fish is not always substituted for meat during the corporate fast, and fasting is not limited to not eating, although this is part of our corporate fasting. Or perhaps you think God is being hypocritical when He says through the prophet:
"Is not this the fast that I choose:
to loose the bonds of wickedness,
to undo the thongs of the yoke,
to let the oppressed go free,
and to break every yoke?
7*Is it not to share your bread with the hungry,
and bring the homeless poor into your house;
when you see the naked, to cover him,
and not to hide yourself from your own flesh? " Isa 58What you have done here is create a false dichotomy. The Church does not want people to “fast for the wrong reason”. Of course great spiritual benefit can be found in fasting. You seem to have an authority issue, in couching this in terms of “laid down the rule”. Leadership is not about dictating and “laying down rules”. It is about guiding the faithful into "fasting for the right reason.
Quite true. But it seems that you are again creating a false dichotomy. You seem to be assuming that Catholics are unwilling to fast, just because the Church calls for a fast. Why would you assume that?
It is the duty of the Church to warn the faithful when they are in danger. Refusing to participate in the corporate fast is a sign that one is not joined in heart and mind with the Church.
This is a common mistake made by “bible Christians”. But the Catholic faith, unlike the faith of “bible Christians” is not extracted from the pages of Scripture. Our faith is handed down to us from the Apostles, and is not limitied to only what can be found in the pages of the text (which was produced by, for, and about Catholics).
Yes. But there is nothing about fasting that violates the commandments of God.
So, are you saying now that it is no longer spiritual to fast?
Sorry. Too much stuff to get into and I’m worried you might be argumentative.He gave His authority to the Apostles to choose a specific time. It is curious that you interpret this leadership as “dictating” rather than sherpherding. Let me ask you about this example:
How are the faithful to learn that a fast has been sanctified? How are they to learn that a solemn assembly has been called? how are the elders to be gathered? Does this have to be “dictated” or can there be leadership functioning?Code:Sanctify a fast, call a solemn assembly. Gather the elders and all the inhabitants of the land to the house of the LORD your God; and cry to the LORD. Joel 1:14
23*And when they had appointed elders for them in every church, with prayer and fasting they committed them to the Lord in whom they believed. Acts 14:23
Who are “they”? Do you think “they dictated fasting”?
This seems somewhat narrow minded. In fact, fish is not always substituted for meat during the corporate fast, and fasting is not limited to not eating, although this is part of our corporate fasting. Or perhaps you think God is being hypocritical when He says through the prophet:
Apparently “biblical fasting” is much broader than you have imagined.Code:"Is not this the fast that I choose: to loose the bonds of wickedness, to undo the thongs of the yoke, to let the oppressed go free, and to break every yoke? 7*Is it not to share your bread with the hungry, and bring the homeless poor into your house; when you see the naked, to cover him, and not to hide yourself from your own flesh? " Isa 58
What you have done here is create a false dichotomy. The Church does not want people to “fast for the wrong reason”. Of course great spiritual benefit can be found in fasting. You seem to have an authority issue, in couching this in terms of “laid down the rule”. Leadership is not about dictating and “laying down rules”. It is about guiding the faithful into "fasting for the right reason.
A person who spurns the leadership appointed by Christ spurns Him as well. It is a sign that a person is not holding a humble attitude toward God, and is not having a teachable spirit. Such things can endanger the soul.
Yes. This is going too far.
Quite true. But it seems that you are again creating a false dichotomy. You seem to be assuming that Catholics are unwilling to fast, just because the Church calls for a fast. Why would you assume that?
It is the duty of the Church to warn the faithful when they are in danger. Refusing to participate in the corporate fast is a sign that one is not joined in heart and mind with the Church.
This is a common mistake made by “bible Christians”. But the Catholic faith, unlike the faith of “bible Christians” is not extracted from the pages of Scripture. Our faith is handed down to us from the Apostles, and is not limitied to only what can be found in the pages of the text (which was produced by, for, and about Catholics).
What you are saying is that your interpretation of what “biblical principles” are is better and more accurate than what was handed down to us by the Apostles. The above verses show that “biblical fasting” is much more than your narrow interpretation allows. By what authority should we accept your interpretation of what is “biblical” over that of the Apostles?
Yes. But there is nothing about fasting that violates the commandments of God.
Handwashing does not violate the commandments of God either.
There is nothing wrong with doing good things by “rote” either, though they are much more beneficial if they are done with spirituality.
So, are you saying now that it is no longer spiritual to fast?
It refers to the things God wants us to fast from in addition to food and drink, so as to make our fasting from food and drink spiritually fruitful.
Yes. I know.
The Church already teaches all of these things. Where are you getting the idea that it doesn’t?
Jmcrae
Right. Because they were misunderstanding the purpose of it.
Right. They wanted faith without works.
This is all exactly what the Catholic Church teaches.
If she didn’t hear it, it doesn’t mean it wasn’t taught. I took classes in Algebra for years when I was in school, but I can’t do it very well today - not because I wasn’t taught, but because I wasn’t interested in learning, and didn’t see any application in my own life.
This is curious, I find one at every liturgy.
Yes.
Yes. The Apostles filled the role of Overseer. The Pope is a Bishop.
This seems to set up a false dichotomy, as if the rules made by the Pope are not of God.
Not as much as I would like, but I am working on it.
The authority given to Peter?
YOu know a lot of people that fast on good friday?
There are some very ancient words and concepts that have different meanings than the modern uses of the words.
I hate it when that happens.
Of course you don’t! This is a foundation of the Papacy.
Why not?
The Church in the NT is the Catholic Church. The NT was written by, for, and about Catholics. It was first described as catholic in Acts 9:31. The Church throughout - there was no other Church. By the end of the first century the modifier became a proper noun.
Sometimes they can be recovered by going backward in your browser. The safest thing is to copy it before send, so if it gets lost in transmission you can paste it back, or write in a notepad then paste it to the window.
Its seems that you are looking at it, but you don’t process what it says.
How does one follow the spirit of the law “instead of” the letter of the law?
Good morning Jmcrae
Did they even want faith??
I agree. Too bad only those such as yourself know about it. I don’t need to ask you because I know that YOU are fasting for spiritual reasons.
I cannot agree. She didn’t hear it because it was never said. WHEN was she supposed to have hfeard it? At a special bible study that happens once every two weeks? Do you know how many people even go? Right. They’re not interested. SO, we never say it at any other time? How about when there are hundreds of people at Mass on Sunday? How about during the sermon? I know this could be done - I’ve seen it. Priests tell me it’s a Mass and not a schoolroom. So, then, WHEN is the teaching to take place?
HUH??This is curious, I find one at every liturgy.
Yes.
Yes. The Apostles filled the role of Overseer. The Pope is a Bishop.
This seems to set up a false dichotomy, as if the rules made by the Pope are not of God.
The authority for binding and loosing is a legislative power. We call them disciplines, rather than rules.
Not as much as I would like, but I am working on it.
The authority given to Peter?
YOu know a lot of people that fast on good friday?
There are some very ancient words and concepts that have different meanings than the modern uses of the words.
I hate it when that happens.
Of course you don’t! This is a foundation of the Papacy.
Why not?
The Church in the NT is the Catholic Church. The NT was written by, for, and about Catholics. It was first described as catholic in Acts 9:31. The Church throughout - there was no other Church. By the end of the first century the modifier became a proper noun.
Sometimes they can be recovered by going backward in your browser. The safest thing is to copy it before send, so if it gets lost in transmission you can paste it back, or write in a notepad then paste it to the window.
Its seems that you are looking at it, but you don’t process what it says.
I am not sure this is entirely true. Persons who are compulsed to do things they don’t want to know can benefit by the experience if they embrace the suffering with thankfulness and joy towards God. If you were imprisoned unjustly, could you not create value in it by accepting the suffering?
I think you are confused about mortal sins. A person who sins mortally is not “going to hell” unless they fail to repent. It is the duty of the Church to warn the faithful when they are going in the wrong direction. A soul that is not disposed to join with the Body in a corporal work such as fasting indicates that a disconnecton already exists.
We are certainly have a great deal of catechesis and spiritual formation before us.
This is an excellent question. Most Catholics only have a childhood level of education in their faith, and the opportunties for adult formation are still far too thin. My parish has absolutely no ministries in this area. All the resources are poured into the K-8 school.
Not often enough, surely, though there are some very good teachers/preachers that make great use of the homily. One can also find good homilies online now to compensate for those that lack such skills.
Frightening, isn’t it?
Or perhaps you should start? Have you ever considered that you are being called to the ministry of adult faith formation?