Meat on Good Friday...Mortal Sin?

[jmcrae]

Good morning Jmcrae
Some here understand the purpose of the fasting in the CC.
Some here know that not everyone who shows up for Mass on Sunday do.
Some here know that some really high ups do not practice what they preach.
Some here know that we must worship in spirit and in truth, NOT in Law.

It is the law that brings us to Spirit and Truth. They are not opposed. The Law is the staircase that leads us to the mountain top.

I cannot be FORCED to fast. It has NO VALUE.
And, to add going to hell for not doing it is adding injury to insult, IMHO.

You can be required to do many things that are good for you, and you will see the benefit of doing them after the fact.

Do you give your small children the option of whether or not to eat their meat and vegetables?

Do you give your employees the option of whether or not to complete their tasks on time and with excellence?

Many things in this life are not optional, because they lead to a good life here on earth - a temporary life that will be over before you expect it.

Why should the things that lead to eternal life - far more important than good health or profit - be optional?

I cannot agree. She didn’t hear it because it was never said. WHEN was she supposed to have heard it?

She should have attended Catholic school, and she should have been studying her faith for at least 45 minutes a day from the time she entered kindergarten until she finished high school.

She also should have had parents and godparents to guide her at home.

My suspicion is that she is well aware of the teachings of the Church, but is ignoring them for reasons of convenience or ego.

 

[GodsGrace154]

It is the law that brings us to Spirit and Truth. They are not opposed. The Law is the staircase that leads us to the mountain top.

I know what you mean but this is not N.T. and Christian teaching.
Do you really believe there is no difference between the Law and the Spirit?

The Law never led to the mountain top. That’s why the civil and ceremonial laws were abolished and why Jesus came to fulfill the moral law. Mathew 5:17

The Law kills but the spirit gives life.
2 Corinthians 3:6

In the O.T. times, the Law was given to Moses. God demanded that it be kept.
Deuteronomy 28:15
Did it work? No. The Law cannot be kept. It lets us know our faults and it let’s us know what we should do, but we cannot do it.
Romans 7:19

The Spirit gives life.
Romans 8:1

Jesus’ death changed everything. The Law still exists - it is not abolished. But now we have the POWER to live by the Law. It’s not the Law that brought us to this, it’s the Spirit that brought us to this.

The power is the Holy Spirit. When Jesus ascended, He sent the Holy Spirit to live within us and make us WANT to follow the Law.
John 14:16

it’s pivotal to understand this. Sins will still be committed, but they are definitely held to a minimum and forgiveness is available.

You can be required to do many things that are good for you, and you will see the benefit of doing them after the fact.

Do you give your small children the option of whether or not to eat their meat and vegetables?

Do you give your employees the option of whether or not to complete their tasks on time and with excellence?

Many things in this life are not optional, because they lead to a good life here on earth - a temporary life that will be over before you expect it.

Why should the things that lead to eternal life - far more important than good health or profit - be optional?

I agree with you. But, going back to the prior response, here’s what I see here:
I put the plate in front of my kids and tell them to eat the veggies and meat. Sometimes they do and sometimes they actually CANNOT. But, by my explanation above (which is not mine BTW, it’s Christianity - I’m just referring to it) the Spirit way would make them more likely to eat it because they would UNDERSTAND WHY they have to eat it and not just take my command.

I agree with the rest of what you’ve said. Employees MUST work but they’re Slaves and NOT Children! By the Law we were Slaves, By the Spirit we are Children.

And really, do you think following a rule could get you to heaven? Or do we have to believe? What if I follow all the rules but am not even sure God exists or don’t even believe in heaven and hell? Is there a difference? No, really…

She should have attended Catholic school, and she should have been studying her faith for at least 45 minutes a day from the time she entered kindergarten until she finished high school.

She also should have had parents and godparents to guide her at home.

My suspicion is that she is well aware of the teachings of the Church, but is ignoring them for reasons of convenience or ego.

My dear Jmcrae,
Coulda
Woulda
Shoulda

You’re a nice person, but this is real life here. Do you think Catholic schools are available everywhere? Or that everyone could afford them?

I sent my two grown children to Catholic schools from the first grade. (no kindergarten avx or they would have gone there too). They had a parent who was a believer (me, I won’t speak to my husband although he did “practice”) and always mentioned God in even casual conversation. My parents were also a good example to them. So, how does it end up? One is a believing Christian and one is not. That’s how it is. Not everyone who is taught will come to serve the Lord.

And, let me say that I wish ALL families would do what you’re recommending. Does every parent you know send their child happily to religious instruction or catechism? So, you see, I agree with you, but it’s not happening… The “whys” are too extensive.

But to get back: Law doesn’t work. Especially with people today. The Spirit works. I do believe the Catholic church is trying to get away from the Law. Do you agree?
(Amoris Laetitia)

GG

 

[guanophore]

I know what you mean but this is not N.T. and Christian teaching.

Do you really believe there is no difference between the Law and the Spirit?

That is not what was said. Take a deep breath, then read it again.

23Now before faith came, we were confined under the law, kept under restraint until faith should be revealed. 24So that the law was our custodian until Christ came, that we might be justified by faith. 25*But now that faith has come, w are no longer under a custodian; Gal. 3:23

The Law brings us to the Spirit. The Law has been our custodian.

The Law kills but the spirit gives life.
2 Corinthians 3:6

In the O.T. times, the Law was given to Moses. God demanded that it be kept.
Deuteronomy 28:15
Did it work? No. The Law cannot be kept. It lets us know our faults and it let’s us know what we should do, but we cannot do it.

You have been misinformed, GG. Of course the Law can be kept. We cannot do it by ourselves - it can only be kept by grace, through faith.

“5In the days of King Herod of Judea, there was a priest named Zechariah, who belonged to the priestly order of Abijah. His wife was a descendant of Aaron, and her name was Elizabeth. 6Both of them were righteous before God, living blamelessly according to all the commandments and regulations of the Lord.” Luke 1:5

Yes, the law informs us of how we fall short, but God’s method of salvation has never changed. People under the Law were also saved by grace, through faith. His grace enables the faithful to follow the Law.

Jesus’ death changed everything. The Law still exists - it is not abolished. But now we have the POWER to live by the Law. It’s not the Law that brought us to this, it’s the Spirit that brought us to this.

The Spirit enabled people to fulfill the Law before the death of Christ too.

The power is the Holy Spirit. When Jesus ascended, He sent the Holy Spirit to live within us and make us WANT to follow the Law.
John 14:16

Yes, this is an advantage that Christians have over those in the old covenant.

it’s pivotal to understand this. Sins will still be committed, but they are definitely held to a minimum and forgiveness is available.

The nature and seriousness of sin has not changed after Jesus died on the cross. There are still very serious (deadly) sins.

Forgiveness was available before Jesus.

I’m just referring to it) the Spirit way would make them more likely to eat it because they would UNDERSTAND WHY they have to eat it and not just take my command.

I agree with the rest of what you’ve said. Employees MUST work but they’re Slaves and NOT Children! By the Law we were Slaves, By the Spirit we are Children.

Yes, the Spirit filled life is one in which God conforms our desires to His own, and we are eager to fulfill His commandments.

And really, do you think following a rule could get you to heaven? Or do we have to believe? What if I follow all the rules but am not even sure God exists or don’t even believe in heaven and hell? Is there a difference? No, really…

People are judged in the light of what they have received. If a person does not know any better, but follows that which he does know, then God will judge them accordingly. Those without the Law are judged without it.

But to get back: Law doesn’t work. Especially with people today. The Spirit works. I do believe the Catholic church is trying to get away from the Law. Do you agree?
(Amoris Laetitia)

GG

No. There is no need to “get away” from that which comes from God. The Fulillment of the Law through Christ does not abolish it.

 

[GodsGrace154]

That is not what was said. Take a deep breath, then read it again.

23Now before faith came, we were confined under the law, kept under restraint until faith should be revealed. 24So that the law was our custodian until Christ came, that we might be justified by faith. 25*But now that faith has come, w are no longer under a custodian; Gal. 3:23

The Law brings us to the Spirit. The Law has been our custodian.

You have been misinformed, GG. Of course the Law can be kept. We cannot do it by ourselves - it can only be kept by grace, through faith.

“5In the days of King Herod of Judea, there was a priest named Zechariah, who belonged to the priestly order of Abijah. His wife was a descendant of Aaron, and her name was Elizabeth. 6Both of them were righteous before God, living blamelessly according to all the commandments and regulations of the Lord.” Luke 1:5

Yes, the law informs us of how we fall short, but God’s method of salvation has never changed. People under the Law were also saved by grace, through faith. His grace enables the faithful to follow the Law.

The Spirit enabled people to fulfill the Law before the death of Christ too.

Yes, this is an advantage that Christians have over those in the old covenant.

The nature and seriousness of sin has not changed after Jesus died on the cross. There are still very serious (deadly) sins.

Forgiveness was available before Jesus.

Yes, the Spirit filled life is one in which God conforms our desires to His own, and we are eager to fulfill His commandments.

People are judged in the light of what they have received. If a person does not know any better, but follows that which he does know, then God will judge them accordingly. Those without the Law are judged without it.

No. There is no need to “get away” from that which comes from God. The Fulillment of the Law through Christ does not abolish it.

I don’t mean to be discourteous in not answering you,
But the misunderstandings in your replies (of my posts) are so great that I’d have to spend all my time adjusting what you didn’t understand before I could even get to answering you.

For instance, your last paragraph. I NEVER said the fulfillment of the Law abolishes it.

I am truly sorry for this.

GG

 

[GodsGrace154]

That is not what was said. Take a deep breath, then read it again.

23Now before faith came, we were confined under the law, kept under restraint until faith should be revealed. 24So that the law was our custodian until Christ came, that we might be justified by faith. 25*But now that faith has come, w are no longer under a custodian; Gal. 3:23

The Law brings us to the Spirit. The Law has been our custodian.

You have been misinformed, GG. Of course the Law can be kept. We cannot do it by ourselves - it can only be kept by grace, through faith.

“5In the days of King Herod of Judea, there was a priest named Zechariah, who belonged to the priestly order of Abijah. His wife was a descendant of Aaron, and her name was Elizabeth. 6Both of them were righteous before God, living blamelessly according to all the commandments and regulations of the Lord.” Luke 1:5

Yes, the law informs us of how we fall short, but God’s method of salvation has never changed. People under the Law were also saved by grace, through faith. His grace enables the faithful to follow the Law.

The Spirit enabled people to fulfill the Law before the death of Christ too.

Yes, this is an advantage that Christians have over those in the old covenant.

The nature and seriousness of sin has not changed after Jesus died on the cross. There are still very serious (deadly) sins.

Forgiveness was available before Jesus.

Yes, the Spirit filled life is one in which God conforms our desires to His own, and we are eager to fulfill His commandments.

People are judged in the light of what they have received. If a person does not know any better, but follows that which he does know, then God will judge them accordingly. Those without the Law are judged without it.

No. There is no need to “get away” from that which comes from God. The Fulillment of the Law through Christ does not abolish it.

Just caught this. It just came up.

The Law was not our custodian.
FAITH was our custodian.

Hebrews 11: 1-13

GG

 

[guanophore]

Just caught this. It just came up.

The Law was not our custodian.
FAITH was our custodian.

Hebrews 11: 1-13

GG

Faith is the means by which we access saving grace.

How do you explain away Gal. 3:23?

 

[guanophore]

I don’t mean to be discourteous in not answering you,
But the misunderstandings in your replies (of my posts) are so great that I’d have to spend all my time adjusting what you didn’t understand before I could even get to answering you.

For instance, your last paragraph. I NEVER said the fulfillment of the Law abolishes it.

I am truly sorry for this.

GG

Just pick one spot, and start there. I am here to learn.

 

[GodsGrace154]

Faith is the means by which we access saving grace.

How do you explain away Gal. 3:23?

I think you must mean Galatians 3:24?
It says that the Law was our schoolmaster. (KJV)
In Young’s Literal Translation is says “child-conductor”.

Child conductor could mean guardian.

In verse 23 it says “We were kept under the Law” before faith came.
“Shut up under the faith which should afterwards be revealed.”

It would seem that the Law taught us more than being a guardian; although both could probably be argued.

This is from Gill’s:

Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster unto Christ
So the words should be read, as they are by the Syriac and Ethiopic versions; for the words “to bring us” are a supplement of our translators, and have nothing to answer to them in the original; and the sense of the passage is, that the law performed this office of a schoolmaster until the coming of Christ; which shows that till that time the church was in its minority, that the Jews were but children in knowledge and understanding, and therefore stood in need, and were under the care of a schoolmaster, the law, by which the whole Mosaic administration is designed. They were taught by the moral law, the letter, the writing on the two tables, with other statutes and judgments, their duty to God and men, what is to be done and to be avoided, what is righteousness and what is not, the nature of sin, its demerit and consequences; but these gave them no instructions about a Saviour, and life and righteousness by him.

GG
P.S. Faith saved us even in the O.T. It guarded us from being lost forever.

 

[GodsGrace154]

Just pick one spot, and start there. I am here to learn.

It doesn’t seem to me that you have much to learn, especially not from me.

GG

 

[guanophore]

I think you must mean Galatians 3:24?

It says that the Law was our schoolmaster. (KJV)
In Young’s Literal Translation is says “child-conductor”.

Child conductor could mean guardian.

tutor = παιδαγωγὸς

in this passage. In ancient times, children were in the keeping and under the guardianship of the schoolmaster during all their lessons.

In verse 23 it says “We were kept under the Law” before faith came.
“Shut up under the faith which should afterwards be revealed.”

shut up = held captive = ἐφρουρούμεθα

having been imprisoned = συνκλειόμενοι

Held captive under the law, imprisoned to the faith about to be revealed

It would seem that the Law taught us more than being a guardian; although both could probably be argued.

This is from Gill’s:

Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster unto Christ
So the words should be read, as they are by the Syriac and Ethiopic versions; for the words “to bring us” are a supplement of our translators, and have nothing to answer to them in the original; and the sense of the passage is, that the law performed this office of a schoolmaster until the coming of Christ; which shows that till that time the church was in its minority, that the Jews were but children in knowledge and understanding, and therefore stood in need, and were under the care of a schoolmaster, the law, by which the whole Mosaic administration is designed. They were taught by the moral law, the letter, the writing on the two tables, with other statutes and judgments, their duty to God and men, what is to be done and to be avoided, what is righteousness and what is not, the nature of sin, its demerit and consequences; but these gave them no instructions about a Saviour, and life and righteousness by him.

GG
P.S. Faith saved us even in the O.T. It guarded us from being lost forever.

Yes, as you referenced in the great praise of faith in Heb. 11.

The law was part of that guardianship, restraining people and holding them “imprisoned” until they could come under grace.

I don’t mean to be discourteous in not answering you,
But the misunderstandings in your replies (of my posts) are so great that I’d have to spend all my time adjusting what you didn’t understand before I could even get to answering you.

For instance, your last paragraph. I NEVER said the fulfillment of the Law abolishes it.

I am truly sorry for this.

GG

Did you mean that I don’t understand your posts? What I mean to say is that I am truly sorry about that too and I am happy to be corrected on my misunderstanding.

 

[GodsGrace154]

tutor = παιδαγωγὸς

in this passage. In ancient times, children were in the keeping and under the guardianship of the schoolmaster during all their lessons.

shut up = held captive = ἐφρουρούμεθα

having been imprisoned = συνκλειόμενοι

Held captive under the law, imprisoned to the faith about to be revealed

Yes, as you referenced in the great praise of faith in Heb. 11.

The law was part of that guardianship, restraining people and holding them “imprisoned” until they could come under grace.

Did you mean that I don’t understand your posts? What I mean to say is that I am truly sorry about that too and I am happy to be corrected on my misunderstanding.

See. You even know Greek!
I believe I have much to learn from you…

And yes, I didn’t mean that you don’t understand scripture. I meant that you don’t understand what I’M posting many times and so it makes it difficult for me to reply.

Maybe in the future you could go a little slower and try to understand what it is I’m saying?

GG

 

[guanophore]

See. You even know Greek!
I believe I have much to learn from you…

And yes, I didn’t mean that you don’t understand scripture. I meant that you don’t understand what I’M posting many times and so it makes it difficult for me to reply.

Maybe in the future you could go a little slower and try to understand what it is I’m saying?

GG

I will diligently endeavor to do so. But don’t hesitate to tell me I missed the point, so I can go back again.

Iron sharpens iron.

 

[jmcrae]

“The spirit of the Law” sometimes seems to be interpreted as “Do the exact opposite of what the Law requires.” So, if the Law requires fasting and abstinence from rich meats, then we stuff ourselves with rich meats and claim that we’re following “the spirit of the Law.” Because following the letter of the Law would be some kind of “bad thing.”



It seems to me that in following the letter of the Law, we are doing the least that is required.

When we properly follow the spirit of the Law, we add to the letter; we don’t completely subtract the letter altogether.

So for example, someone following the spirit of the law of abstinence from meat on Fridays would continue to abstain from meat on Fridays, and they would add something else to it - for example, they might take the money saved on their grocery bill and donate it to buy healthy lunches for poor children. Or they might use the time not spent cooking and eating to spend extra time in prayer.

Rather than stuff themselves with rich meats and claim to be following “the spirit of the Law.”

It seems to me that part of where people get confused is when they see that we, as Gentiles, are not required to follow the Old Testament laws that pertained to Jews regarding circumcision, kosher foods, and so on. The confusion is to think that those laws were “done away with.”

No, they weren’t. Those laws have never applied to Gentiles. Ever. Not even in Old Testament times. So, there is neither a spirit nor a letter to those laws that any Gentile needs to follow. Instead, we follow the laws of the New Covenant, by participating in the Sacraments, and by doing the works of mercy.

 

[GodsGrace154]

“The spirit of the Law” sometimes seems to be interpreted as “Do the exact opposite of what the Law requires.” So, if the Law requires fasting and abstinence from rich meats, then we stuff ourselves with rich meats and claim that we’re following “the spirit of the Law.” Because following the letter of the Law would be some kind of “bad thing.”



It seems to me that in following the letter of the Law, we are doing the least that is required.

When we properly follow the spirit of the Law, we add to the letter; we don’t completely subtract the letter altogether.

So for example, someone following the spirit of the law of abstinence from meat on Fridays would continue to abstain from meat on Fridays, and they would add something else to it - for example, they might take the money saved on their grocery bill and donate it to buy healthy lunches for poor children. Or they might use the time not spent cooking and eating to spend extra time in prayer.

Rather than stuff themselves with rich meats and claim to be following “the spirit of the Law.”

It seems to me that part of where people get confused is when they see that we, as Gentiles, are not required to follow the Old Testament laws that pertained to Jews regarding circumcision, kosher foods, and so on. The confusion is to think that those laws were “done away with.”

No, they weren’t. Those laws have never applied to Gentiles. Ever. Not even in Old Testament times. So, there is neither a spirit nor a letter to those laws that any Gentile needs to follow. Instead, we follow the laws of the New Covenant, by participating in the Sacraments, and by doing the works of mercy.

All good. Interesting about the gentiles never having had to follow the Law. But now we are grafted in. So we become Jew first. Jesus was still Jewish when He said this and He meant that we were grafted into the Jewish religion. What do you think? Do you think He purposefully set out to start a “Christian” religion, or do you think Jesus meant to bring spirituality back to the Jews? (and then they were separated between Jew and Christian and the rest is history).

The Law of the New Covenant:

" I will put My Law within them, and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
And they shall not teach again, each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying “Know the Lord,” for they shall all Know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, declares the LORD, for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more."
Jeremiah 31:33.34

GG

 

[rcwitness]

" I will put My Law within them, and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
And they shall not teach again, each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying “Know the Lord,” for they shall all Know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, declares the LORD, for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more."
Jeremiah 31:33.34

GG

Amen. Scripture has a lot of Teaching! Why doesn’t it just say, “Know the Lord”?

 

[jmcrae]

All good. Interesting about the gentiles never having had to follow the Law. But now we are grafted in. So we become Jew first. Jesus was still Jewish when He said this and He meant that we were grafted into the Jewish religion. What do you think? Do you think He purposefully set out to start a “Christian” religion, or do you think Jesus meant to bring spirituality back to the Jews?

Jesus is God. He wasn’t some kind of well-intentioned religious/political figure for whom things went horribly sideways. Everything He did was intentional, for the purpose of establishing the New Covenant.

He fully and consciously intended to establish One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, with Peter as its Chief Shepherd. I’m thinking He even knew it was going to be headed by the Bishop of Rome, because of St. Peter’s death in Rome.

 

[GodsGrace154]

Jesus is God. He wasn’t some kind of well-intentioned religious/political figure for whom things went horribly sideways. Everything He did was intentional, for the purpose of establishing the New Covenant.

He fully and consciously intended to establish One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, with Peter as its Chief Shepherd. I’m thinking He even knew it was going to be headed by the Bishop of Rome, because of St. Peter’s death in Rome.

Did I give the impression I think Jesus was a religious/political leader? I’m sorry if I did.
At Catholic bible studies a person will sometimes ask if Jesus knew He had to go to the cross. My question is legitimate, I think. Maybe I’m just reading too much into your reply. Sorry if I am…

He intended to establish. But I do think many times that He intended for the Jews to return to a more spiritual idea of God. There had been no prophets for a long period of time between Malachi and John the Baptist. (about 400 yrs). The New Covenant is intended for all - His kingdom shall be worldwide and shall have no end. The gentiles were grafted in. I DO wonder if Jesus really meant for a whole new “denomination” if you will, to be established, welcoming also the gentiles - or if He really wanted the gentiles to be welcomed into a more spiritual Jewish religion. The Wedding Banquet, for instance.
Mathew 22:1… The banquet was already going on and established. The “outsiders” were welcomed. But it was a parable and not more than necessary should be read into it…

But let’s end this conversation here.

GG

 

[GodsGrace154]

Amen. Scripture has a lot of Teaching! Why doesn’t it just say, “Know the Lord”?

Right!

Because our hearts had to be made right; soft and pliable so they could receive God in spirit and in truth.

GG

 

[rcwitness]

“I will put My Law within them, and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
And they shall not teach again, each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying “Know the Lord,” for they shall all Know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, declares the LORD, for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.”
Jeremiah 31:33.34

Amen. Scripture has a lot of Teaching! Why doesn’t it just say, “Know the Lord”?

Right!

Because our hearts had to be made right; soft and pliable so they could receive God in spirit and in truth.

I think you are right.

Ephesians 4
And his gifts were that some should be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers, for the equipment of the saints, for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ "

So we do require teachers among us, because we do not all receive in faith, and obey and submit to our leaders. So that is why some choose their own teachers.

2 Timothy 4

preach the word, be urgent in season and out of season, convince, rebuke, and exhort, be unfailing in patience and in teaching. 3 For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own likings, 4 and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander into myths.

This is why i did not look for a Church that i agreed with. I went to the Church who professes to be the One Church throughout the world and the ages. I allow this Church to teach me, to Shepherd me. Because i only have One Lord and Teacher.

 

[Wannano]

I think you are right.

Ephesians 4
And his gifts were that some should be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers, for the equipment of the saints, for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ "

So we do require teachers among us, because we do not all receive in faith, and obey and submit to our leaders. So that is why some choose their own teachers.

2 Timothy 4

preach the word, be urgent in season and out of season, convince, rebuke, and exhort, be unfailing in patience and in teaching. 3 For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own likings, 4 and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander into myths.

This is why i did not look for a Church that i agreed with. I went to the Church who professes to be the One Church throughout the world and the ages. I allow this Church to teach me, to Shepherd me. Because i only have One Lord and Teacher.

The first verse of 2 Timothy 4 contains the word “therefore”, I have heard in numerous sermons that if a chapter starts with a verse containing the word “therefore” we should read further back to the preceding chapter to see what the word is there for!

Have a look at chapter 3 and read it stopping at verse 8 in chapter 4.

I am sure the Catholic Church would teach that this time came at the Reformation, correct me if I am wrong. We need to ask ourselves seriously, did this time manifest itself in the first centuries of Church history and as a result we have Catholicism? A serious seeker would look at both propositions. Is it possible that both propositions are correct?