Meat on Lenten Friday = mortal sin = hell?

[gerard811]

Well, if you’re game to test your theory on a God who struck Annias and Sapphira dead for telling a teeny white lie …

Yes, but then we have the New Testament where Jesus (who is God) displays God’s compassion and mercy (mostly; we certainly don’t have any legitimate stories of Jesus bashing in the heads of infants or striking someone dead for a white lie).

When I think of Jesus in the New Testament, would he condemn me to Hell for eternity for being weak every now and then and eating a hamburger on a Lenten Friday? It sounds so ridiculous!

 

[gerard811]

But, the measuring stick is not a despot. The measuring stick is Jesus Christ. I find it troubling when I hear folks say something like hey it’s not like I am a hit man or something. The problem is we are called to be holy. Not being like a hitman, or some such thing ,is not nearly enough.

I am not saying we are JUSTIFIED in eating the meat. In fact, it is wrong in almost all cases. But to go to Hell because of it? Doubt it.

 

[gerard811]

• He that hears you hears ME; and he that rejects you rejects me; and he that rejects me rejects him that sent me – Luke 10:16
• Obey your leaders, and be submissive; for they watch over your souls – Hebrews 13:17

I don’t like getting into the Bible quote game, only because it is very easy to take things out of context.

 

[LilyM]

Yes, but then we have the New Testament where Jesus (who is God) displays God’s compassion and mercy (mostly; we certainly don’t have any legitimate stories of Jesus bashing in the heads of infants or striking someone dead for a white lie).

Think again - Annias and Saphira IS a New Testament story - Acts of the Apostles. They were the ones who were struck dead for their lies.

 

[Sir_Knight]

I don’t like getting into the Bible quote game, only because it is very easy to take things out of context.

What am I taking out of context? Please provide a different understanding of those passages if my interpretation is incorrect.

 

[Sir_Knight]

No, I’m saying the Church can, and does, error sometimes.

If that is the case, the Jesus lied when He promised to send His Holy Spirit to guide His Church in ALL truths and that the jaws of Hell would not overcome His Church and that whatever the Church bounded on earth would be bound in heaven.

That’s three lies right there. And if the Son of God lied even once, how can you trust ANYTHING that He said and taught?

Fasting from meat is a custom, not an infallible teaching. Should we make a very good effort to follow the custom? Yes, I think so. However, if we slip every now and then, I doubt we end up in Hell. It just sounds silly and preposterous…

In Hell for eternity for eating a little meat? I could see it being a venial sin. But a mortal one, no.

The divine law binds all the Christian faithful to do penance each in his or her own way. In order for all to be united among themselves by some common observance of penance, however, penitential days are prescribed on which the Christian faithful devote themselves in a special way to prayer, perform works of piety and charity, and deny themselves by fulfilling their own obligations more faithfully and especially by observing fast and abstinence, according to the norm of the following canons Can. 1249, emphasis added]. It is thus a matter of divine law that the faithful are to do penance (a fact we could have determined from Scripture), and the regulations regarding fast and abstinence are simply the Church’s specification of this divine requirement, made in keeping with Jesus giving the church the power to bind and loose (Matt. 16:18, 18:18).

And I already responded to the Adam and Eve example. In that case, God directly spoke to them. If God directly spoke to me, and ordered me NOT to do something, I’d follow his command. The Church coming up with a custom is much different.

And I’ve provided biblical references showing that whatever the Church binds on earth, will be bound in heaven just as if it was bound by God Himself.

 

[gerard811]

“If that is the case, the Jesus lied when He promised to send His Holy Spirit to guide His Church in ALL truths and that the jaws of Hell would not overcome His Church and that whatever the Church bounded on earth would be bound in heaven.”

No, Jesus did not lie. The Church is made of human beings, however. And human beings are not perfect. It could be that the flawed humans have made an error in their judgment about eating meat = a mortal sin.

If you look through Church history, there were some down right terrible Popes and “leaders” in the Church. There have also been numerous scandals within the Church. So, sometimes, the leaders fail to guide the faithful properly. They sometimes fail to discern what exactly they are supposed to “bound” on earth.

 

[gerard811]

Think again - Annias and Saphira IS a New Testament story - Acts of the Apostles. They were the ones who were struck dead for their lies.

You’re right, it is. I goofed. However, it still isn’t an example of Jesus cruelly killing someone because of his or her weak willpower. Jesus is compassionate and merciful. I can’t imagine he’d send us to Hell for all of eternity for eating a hamburger. think about it. Does that sound just? Merciful?

 

[SteveGC]

You’re right, it is. I goofed. However, it still isn’t an example of Jesus cruelly killing someone because of his or her weak willpower. Jesus is compassionate and merciful. I can’t imagine he’d send us to Hell for all of eternity for eating a hamburger. think about it. Does that sound just? Merciful?

Gerard,

It might be helpful for you to not think in terms of ‘eating a hamburger on Friday’. You’ll never connect with the understanding in this way.

Rather, think in terms of your motivations. IOW, maybe ask (and answer) for yourself, these questions…

1. Do you really know why we abstain from meat during Lenten Fridays? Or for that matter, why we are encouraged to sacrifice something (do some form of penance) on all Fridays of the year?
2. Do you know that it is Divine Law (and thus a law of the Church) to do penance, and not just penance associated with confessed sin, but routine lifelong penance?
3. Why do you want to eat meat on Lenten Fridays? Is it because you wish NOT to connect your spirit with the sufferings of Christ and pay homage to the 40 days before His Passion? Can you make a connection within yourself that in your heart you essentially are saying this when you simply say “I just like hamburgers and want to eat them when I want them” ?

So, my advice is to try and remember God’s directive to us to do penance (regardless of our sinful or righteous behavior), that Church law echoes this directive through specific Lenten practices, and that this is why it is grave matter to willfully, knowingly disobey the practice.

If you reduce it down to a seemingly unfair equation of “eat a burger = eternal Hellfire”, you’ll miss the point entirely.

God Bless

 

[Sir_Knight]

“If that is the case, the Jesus lied when He promised to send His Holy Spirit to guide His Church in ALL truths and that the jaws of Hell would not overcome His Church and that whatever the Church bounded on earth would be bound in heaven.”

No, Jesus did not lie. The Church is made of human beings, however. And human beings are not perfect. It could be that the flawed humans have made an error in their judgment about eating meat = a mortal sin.

But Jesus promised that WHATEVER they bind on earth WILL BE bound in heaven. If the Church binds something here on earth (such as eating meat), and it is not bound in heaven, then Christ’s words are not true. Pure and simple.

If you look through Church history, there were some down right terrible Popes and “leaders” in the Church. There have also been numerous scandals within the Church. So, sometimes, the leaders fail to guide the faithful properly. They sometimes fail to discern what exactly they are supposed to “bound” on earth.

Jesus refers to the Pharisees as hypocrites and a brood of vipers but despite their PERSONAL sinfulness, we see in Matt. 23:2-3 Jesus instructing the people to OBEY the Pharisees because their authority is valid – showing that a person’s personal sinfulness has NO bearing on their rightful authority. The sinful leaders of the Church have the authority of Christ and that authority is to be obeyed despite any personal sinfulness on the part of that leader.

 

[Tsuwano]

Yes, but then we have the New Testament where Jesus (who is God) displays God’s compassion and mercy (mostly; we certainly don’t have any legitimate stories of Jesus bashing in the heads of infants or striking someone dead for a white lie).

When I think of Jesus in the New Testament, would he condemn me to Hell for eternity for being weak every now and then and eating a hamburger on a Lenten Friday? It sounds so ridiculous!

Because it is ridiculous! Not only does it defy everything we are taught about a loving God, it also defies everything we are taught about a just God. As some have said, eating meat on Friday, if it is meant as a sign of one’s rejection of God and his Church, may be a mortal sin, but for the bloke who falls prey to weakness or simply forgets to fast, God’s mercy is always present. Anyone who believes otherwise must think God is an accountant who tallies our sins and condemns us without concern for extenuating circumstances. That’s not justice. That’s meaness. And I don’t believe God is mean.

 

[Sir_Knight]

Remember that a just and loving God had Jesus, who was blameless and without sin, suffer on the cross for the sins of others. If this was required of His own Son, what do you think will be required of us?

Jesus makes it very clear in Matthew 7:13-14 …

“Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.”

… Or, does that also not “fit in” with your image of a just and loving God – that MANY will enter into hell but only a few will enter into heaven?

 

[Tsuwano]

Remember that a just and loving God had Jesus, who was blameless and without sin, suffer on the cross for the sins of others. If this was required of His own Son, what do you think will be required of us?

Jesus makes it very clear in Matthew 7:13-14 …

“Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.”

… Or, does that also not “fit in” with your image of a just and loving God – that MANY will enter into hell but only a few will enter into heaven?

Jesus suffered on the cross for my sins because God loves me. Jesus suffered on the cross for your sins because God loves you. If God allowed Jesus to suffer so much because of his desire to bring us into his love, do you really think God would deny that love over a ham sandwich? Please don’t get me wrong. I think fasting and abstinance are good things to do. I support meatless Fridays and encourage all Catholics to keep these principles of the Catholic Church. I think such action on the part of the faithful draw us closer to God and helps us to understand his love for us in greater detail, but accidentally eating meat on a Friday during Lent will not deter God’s love for you or cause God to turn away from you in wrath. I agree that “the road that leads to life” is narrow, but that is because we are so easily pursuaded to think that those surface actions, such as not eating meat on Friday, are more important than the action that occurs in the human heart and which bends one’s will toward God; namely repentance for one’s offenses against God and his creation. You may never eat meat again in your life as a sign of repentance, but unless that repentance actually occurs within your very being, it matters little. Does that “fit in” with your image of God?

 

[SteveGC]

Jesus suffered on the cross for my sins because God loves me. Jesus suffered on the cross for your sins because God loves you. If God allowed Jesus to suffer so much because of his desire to bring us into his love, do you really think God would deny that love over a ham sandwich? Please don’t get me wrong. I think fasting and abstinance are good things to do. I support meatless Fridays and encourage all Catholics to keep these principles of the Catholic Church. I think such action on the part of the faithful draw us closer to God and helps us to understand his love for us in greater detail, but accidentally eating meat on a Friday during Lent will not deter God’s love for you or cause God to turn away from you in wrath. I agree that “the road that leads to life” is narrow, but that is because we are so easily pursuaded to think that those surface actions, such as not eating meat on Friday, are more important than the action that occurs in the human heart and which bends one’s will toward God; namely repentance for one’s offenses against God and his creation. You may never eat meat again in your life as a sign of repentance, but unless that repentance actually occurs within your very being, it matters little. Does that “fit in” with your image of God?

You weren’t addressing me, but I’d like to say…we’re not talking about “accidently” eating meat here. And yes, I think everyone here would obviously agree that authentic penance must be from the heart, not the actions alone. And God certainly DOES love us more than we can imagine, enough to humble Himself through kenosis, and die for us. But He did not swoop us all up in His immense love and carry us off to heaven…He left the Church to shepherd our free wills unto Himself, and the test of our free will (true love) response to Him is accomplished through faith and obedience to His commands. These commands come in many many forms, which as a Catholic, I know you understand. The discipline of penance happens to be one of those commands, and through The Church, God requires us to demonstrate the ascent of our will, and obediently observe the disciplines He puts before us. We willfully and knowingly disobey this command at our own peril.

God bless

 

[fix]

I am not saying we are JUSTIFIED in eating the meat. In fact, it is wrong in almost all cases. But to go to Hell because of it? Doubt it.

I am saying mortal sin involves more than murder. Disciplines can bind in a serious way. It is a matter of obedience. To intentionally disregard such binding is seriously wrong.

 

[Sir_Knight]

Jesus suffered on the cross for my sins because God loves me. Jesus suffered on the cross for your sins because God loves you. If God allowed Jesus to suffer so much because of his desire to bring us into his love, do you really think God would deny that love over a ham sandwich?

Why did God deny His love to ALL of creation (not just one person) over one bite from an apple?

 

[gerard811]

The sinful leaders of the Church have the authority of Christ and that authority is to be obeyed despite any personal sinfulness on the part of that leader.

I disagree and I think you’re misreading what I wrote. Maybe I didn’t explain it clearly enough. I meant that some leaders are not only sinful, but some of them also spread errors about what is right (which is different then a priest or leader, say, abusing someone and then trying to cover it up because they know what they did was wrong). If a group of sinful leaders came along in the Church and told people to participate in abortion for some kind of spiritual good, I would disobey them. We don’t just blindly follow authority. Do you think Jesus Christ would say, “Well, they have the authority. Go take part in the abortions. It’s not your fault. It’s the fault of the leaders”?

 

[gerard811]

But Jesus promised that WHATEVER they bind on earth WILL BE bound in heaven. If the Church binds something here on earth (such as eating meat), and it is not bound in heaven, then Christ’s words are not true. Pure and simple.

I disagree. Christ would want us to bound those things that are morally correct and holy—but because of human flaws, we could be incorrect about what He wants to be bound.

This is exactly why I don’t want to get into quoting the Bible. We are not Biblical scholars. How do you know that Jesus meant exactly “WHATEVER” was bound on earth is bound in heaven? It could be that when he said that he meant it in the sense that only GOOD things can be bound. Do you think his saying applies to binding blatantly immoral and evil acts? If the Church came out in support of abortion, say?

 

[gerard811]

I am saying mortal sin involves more than murder. Disciplines can bind in a serious way. It is a matter of obedience. To intentionally disregard such binding is seriously wrong.

Would you be obedient to the leaders if they came out in support of abortion? I wouldn’t. Sorry, while obedience is important, it does not override everything.

 

[Aislin]

What about those who have health issues and are unable to abstain from meat? I know for myself, I always feel bad about eating meat on Fridays but find it necessary to do so in order to keep my blood sugar balanced evenly or else I start to feel sick. Plus since I don’t eat any fish or seafood and am allergic to dairy, that leaves me kind of limited as to what I can eat for protein.