Meatless Fridays throughout the year may return to the United States

[jwinch2]

You misunderstand my view. I did not explain entirely.

I am not of the mind that reintroducing meatless Fridays through the year would totally solve our problems regarding doing penance, or our problems at large. Rather, this is part of the puzzle, as I see it. Of course this has to be accompanied by manifold, ongoing catecheses and examples of holy men and women. I do not pretend that restoring this or that liturgical practice or this or that traditional aspect of Catholic discipline will change the world. But I believe that, collectively, a gradual restoration of things which were perhaps too easily and quickly given up which (not always perfectly or as well as we would like, granted) supported the Faith in the past, combined with a gradual increase in conversion of heart and an increase in the quality of catechesis, will lead to a more effective New Evangelization, for example.

My point is that this is a piece of the solution, not the total solution nor the most important. Lots of us here have ideas as to improve this or that thing. One of the most common objections is, “Yes, but that is so small, that will not restore the Faith, blahhhhh blah.” I think this shows a tendency toward cynicism, and this is only partially correct. By itself, this or that will not restore the Faith, no. But collectively–and only inasmuch as they are consciously connected to Christ–they can have a sizable impact.

I understand where you are coming from and agree that small things can add up to big ones down the road. To me, and this is only my perspective, this is an issue of teaching on the part of the Church and, of ignoring what teaching has been provided on the part of many in the laity, far more than it is an issue of praxis. That being said, I tend to be a person who looks for the cause of something and tries to work on that, so my take on this issue is not all that surprising.

As noted by Jen above, things like this have a way of turning into a habit or a social aspect of the faith rather than a spiritual one. With that in mind, perhaps it would be better to see about 3 to 5 years of legitimate effort towards preaching and teaching on penance and then, re-institute meatless Fridays all year long. My thought is that it would be more effective to lay the ground work for why the change is coming prior to making the change.

However, at the end of the day I trust the Bishops to make the right decision on things like this. I will accept whatever decision they make.

 

[Rence]

People have ignored it since the specific instruction about the sinfulness of eating meat on Friday was dropped after Vatican II. They simply stopped taking it seriously. My guess is that if they re-institute it, a certain large lukewarm percentage will still not take it seriously, just like they don’t take lenten fasting seriously. This is collateral damage from the way these laws were changed and then announced after Vatican II.

You can’t leave it up to people to choose a penance the way they did after VII. Why? Because absolutely nothing happens. Anytime people don’t know what to do, they don’t do anything. Or they just hang around waiting for someone to do something, OR for something to happen – until they think no one is really paying attention – and they wander off and do what they want. That’s how people work. I’m always surprised when people who are SUPPOSED to be in charge don’t comprehend these basic facts about how people really work socially & cognitively.

But it sounds like, from your above post, that it doesn’t matter either way whether they reinstitute it or not, or leave it up to the parishioners or not.

Anyway, one can always add these thinks individually if they wish to. One doesn’t need for the Bishop to reinstitute if they feel they want to add on more penances.

 

[iloveangels]

I understand where you are coming from and agree that small things can add up to big ones down the road. To me, and this is only my perspective, this is an issue of teaching on the part of the Church and, of ignoring what teaching has been provided on the part of many in the laity, far more than it is an issue of praxis. That being said, I tend to be a person who looks for the cause of something and tries to work on that, so my take on this issue is not all that surprising.

As noted by Jen above, things like this have a way of turning into a habit or a social aspect of the faith rather than a spiritual one. With that in mind, perhaps it would be better to see about 5 solid years of effort towards preaching and teaching on penance and then, re-institute meatless Fridays all year long.

Jason, you’d reach less than 10% of the Catholics in the US that way. It’s just not going to happen like that. People won’t commit that kind of effort and attention to something like that without a reason to do it, and that reason simply does not currently exist in the Catholic environment.

 

[iloveangels]

But it sounds like, from your above post, that it doesn’t matter either way whether they reinstitute it or not, or leave it up to the parishioners or not.

That’s exactly what’s happened post Vatican II. And it’s exactly the take on it that many Catholics have. They just got rid of it. It enabled them to be like everyone else in their work and social environments and that’s what many cradle Catholics really wanted anyway. Many of them thought “good riddance” and didn’t give it another thought.

Anyway, one can always add these thinks individually if they wish to. One doesn’t need for the Bishop to reinstitute if they feel they want to add on more penances.

Oh, I’m sure. You can stand on your head with a shoe in your mouth or any other thing you take a liking to, if you want to. No one’s going to stop you. But that’s not at all the same thing as a corporate penance that the Church says everyone in the Church has to perform. Not the same thing at all. And for a lot of reasons, but perhaps the most important one being: The performance of this corporate penance will mark Catholics as belonging to the Catholic Church, and as being different than the general population. And it’s absolutely VISIBLE and UNMISTAKEABLE.

 

[jwinch2]

Jason, you’d reach less than 10% of the Catholics in the US that way. It’s just not going to happen like that. People won’t commit that kind of effort and attention to something like that without a reason to do it, and that reason simply does not currently exist in the Catholic environment.

Per your above post, it does not appear that much more than 10% of Catholics would get it regardless.

Re-evangelization is going to have to start with those who go to Mass on a regular basis and spread from there. If our parishes are not on fire for the faith, there will be nothing to spread to begin with. In that case, 10% sounds about right. 25% go to Mass, but only some of those are really engaged, participate in the life of the parish, and take their Faith seriously. I know that sounds harsh and perhaps even judgmental, but I believe it to reflect our unfortunate reality.

However in what I am proposing, those other 15% who are at Mass, would at least hear it, and hear it repeatedly. The 10% who are truly engaged would likely see an increase in their own personal holiness and spiritual strength, thus enabling them to more effectively share the faith with others.

 

[YoungTradCath]

That being said, I tend to be a person who looks for the cause of something and tries to work on that, so my take on this issue is not all that surprising.

As noted by Jen above, things like this have a way of turning into a habit or a social aspect of the faith rather than a spiritual one. With that in mind, perhaps it would be better to see about 5 solid years of effort towards preaching and teaching on penance and then, re-institute meatless Fridays all year long.

Yes but, here again, I think you have fallen back in to your earlier trap! It doesn’t have to be this or that, it can be an improvement in this and that, in this case teaching/practice of penance and an increase in the quality of preaching. The Church has lots of people and lots of resources; we can try multiple things at once without diluting our potency.

This kind of reminds me about the people who complained about the new translation of the Roman Missal. They asked, “Why waste time and resources on this? Why not spend this on social justice/catechesis/whatever insert here?” when in reality relatively few people and resources were spent on the new translation of the Roman Missal. It wasn’t like in the time we took to retranslate the Roman Missal we cut off funding from this or that other, more important thing.

We can do multiple things at once. It takes relatively little manpower and monetary resources to reintroduce this practice. It is quite cost-effective on practically all fronts.

Besides, I am not aware of a time in which the Church became more effective at Her mission while making the requirements and rigors of Catholic life easier.

 

[iloveangels]

Per your above post, it does not appear that much more than 10% of Catholics would get it regardless.

That may be a fact, Jason.

Something like 10% self-identify as ex-Catholic. We have quite the swinging door.

Something like 25% (probably a little less) of Americans currently self-identify as Catholic.
Only about 20% of those who self-identify as Catholic actually attend mass weekly.
What’s 20% of 25%? 5% of Americans?

10% ex-Catholic; 20% non-practicing Catholic; 5% practicing Catholic. What do you think?

 

[iloveangels]

Jason,

We have no drivers in place to motivate anybody to do much of anything in the Church. I hope you realize this. We have minimalism in the Church because we’ve allowed people to consider it normal and consider it acceptable. We can hardly complain when they give it back to us.

If you want people to do something, there has to be a reason. People don’t do things for no reason, Jason. Even more, if they’ve been punished for having reasons and voicing them, they will not volunteer. This is what happened after Vatican II, and it’s what happens now in many places.

Right now, my parish church is locked up tighter than a drum. Nothing is going on down there. That’s permission to do something else to almost everyone in town. The message is that church is for Sunday if you feel like it. And no one follows up if you don’t feel like it. There are NO consequences.

What we have is a complete LACK of understanding of how people work. The Church largely doesn’t want to hear it. It means that someone would have to actually work to change it and no one wants to change it.

 

[jwinch2]

Yes but, here again, I think you have fallen back in to your earlier trap! It doesn’t have to be this or that, it can be an improvement in this and that, in this case teaching/practice of penance and an increase in the quality of preaching. The Church has lots of people and lots of resources; we can try multiple things at once without diluting our potency.

This kind of reminds me about the people who complained about the new translation of the Roman Missal. They asked, “Why waste time and resources on this? Why not spend this on social justice/catechesis/whatever insert here?” when in reality relatively few people and resources were spent on the new translation of the Roman Missal. It wasn’t like in the time we took to retranslate the Roman Missal we cut off funding from this or that other, more important thing.

We can do multiple things at once. It takes relatively little manpower and monetary resources to reintroduce this practice. It is quite cost-effective on practically all fronts.

Besides, I am not aware of a time in which the Church became more effective at Her mission while making the requirements and rigors of Catholic life easier.

I am not falling into any sort of “trap” but I do think we are coming at this from different places. I am not suggesting a sequencing of things because it is hard to do or because we lack resources. I am suggesting a sequencing of learning before implementation because I believe it would lead to more effective results.

 

[iloveangels]

I am not falling into any sort of “trap” but I do think we are coming at this from different places. I am not suggesting a sequencing of things because it is hard to do or because we lack resources. I am suggesting a sequencing of learning before implementation because I believe it would lead to more effective results.

Except that’s not how people work.

Children learn to mimic words before they understand everything they express. They learn how to speak from listening to others before they learn the niceties of grammar. Children learn to add and subtract by writing little sums on paper before they comprehend algebra and calculus. Great pianists start by playing chopsticks, which is a nonsensical little ditty.

And as an ex-teacher, I can tell you that the most powerful driver in all of pedagogy is the social factor that always exists, if nowhere else, then between the teacher and the students. You imitate to please before you analyze or replicate anything for yourself.

This is how people work. It’s how this has to be done.

Create the atmosphere. Put the drivers in place. Then teach by imitation and social expectation. And the depth will follow, where it’s going to appear.

When the atmosphere and the expectation are absent, nothing except random activity will happen with the great majority of the population. Absolutely nothing.

 

[liturgyluver]

I am surprised that you don’t have meatless Fridays in the US. It is the norm in the UK, and interestingly most cafes and school refectories offer Fish and Chips as an option on Friday.

 

[jwinch2]

That may be a fact, Jason.

Something like 10% self-identify as ex-Catholic. We have quite the swinging door.

Something like 25% (probably a little less) of Americans currently self-identify as Catholic.
Only about 20% of those who self-identify as Catholic actually attend mass weekly.
What’s 20% of 25%? 5% of Americans?

10% ex-Catholic; 20% non-practicing Catholic; 5% practicing Catholic. What do you think?

Could be. I see it closer to 10% serious Catholics who are doing their best to live their faith, but to in the interest of candor I have no data to back that up. To me however, any attempt at the new evangelization has to start with that 5 - 10%. If we are going to reintroduce older disciplines we need to be honest and realize that this group is the only one really likely to follow them. With that in mind, we will get better results, and perhaps even pull in some of the other 15 - 20% who attend Mass weekly but don’t do much outside of that, if we preach about it first before we implement it.

There is a reason that universities sequence their coursework in the manner in which they do. They start with the theory of something and the basics of how it works. Then, they move to more applied classes, and then start mixing in the practical experiences along the way, until finally they are released into the world. Why is this done instead of just starting the application right away while they are learning the foundation knowledge? Because sequencing things in a systematic way leads to more effective learning, greater retention, and better professional practice. I actually am in the process of teaching a course on the science of learning from the basis of cognition but also the neurophysiology of the learning process, retention of knowledge, and transfer of that knowledge to a practical outcome. Adults do not learn in the same way that children do. Adults learn best and their retention and usability of knowledge is enhanced when the teaching is done in the proper manner.

Now, go back to our 5 - 10% of faithful Catholics. The Church should take the time to preach on this from the pulpit, provide information in the handouts, etc. so that when the change in praxis does come, they are as knowledgeable about why it is being done as they can be. They will more fully integrate the practice of penance into their lives, and will be more more able to explain the reasoning behind the changes to others when questions arise.

We can just jump in the deep end and try to do everything at once, but I really do not believe that will elicit optimal response. We have a massive and complex problem in the Catholic Church in America. Attacking that problem in a systematic and sequential way, I believe, will lead to a better result down the road. We can look to the implementation of the new translation of the Roman Missal. Well in advance of making the actual switch there were materials to provide catechesis, priests preached on the issue, parishes practiced the people’s parts, etc.

I don’t have any personal problem with the reintroduction of this discipline of meatless Fridays all year long. I do however, believe that if we take the time to do some learning first, it will provide better results when it comes to the doing. Even a year or 18 months of knowing that it is coming down the pike will allow diocese to develop and implement a teaching and preaching plan that I believe would yield good results.

 

[iloveangels]

Could be. I see it closer to 10% serious Catholics who are doing their best to live their faith. To me, any attempt at the new evangelization has to start with them. If we are going to reintroduce older disciplines we need to be honest and realize that this group is the only one really likely to follow them. With that in mind, we will get better results, and perhaps even pull in some of the other 15% who attend Mass weekly but don’t do much outside of that, if we preach about it first before we implement it.

There is a reason that universities sequence their coursework in the manner in which they do. They start with the theory of something and the basics of how it works. Then, they move to more applied classes, and then start mixing in the practical experiences along the way, until finally they are released into the world. Why is this done instead of just starting the application right away while they are learning the foundation knowledge? Because sequencing things in a systematic way leads to more effective learning, greater retention, and better professional practice.

Now, go back to our 10% of faithful Catholics. The Church should take the time to preach on this from the pulpit, provide information in the handouts, etc. so that when the change in praxis does come, they are as knowledgeable about why it is being done as they can be. They will more fully integrate the practice of penance into their lives, and will be more more able to explain the reasoning behind the changes to others when questions arise.

We can just jump in the deep end and try to do everything at once, but I really do not believe that will elicit optimal response. We have a massive and complex problem in the Catholic Church in America. Attacking that problem in a systematic and sequential way, I believe, will lead to a better result down the road.

I don’t have any personal problem with the reintroduction of this discipline of meatless Fridays all year long. I do however, believe that if we take the time to do some learning it will provide better results when it comes to the doing.

You’re going to want to kick me after what I’m going to say now, Jason.

Most people, even in that 10% or whatever it is, aren’t going to just toddle right along with what looks for all the world like–um, we were wrong, we take it back–when it comes to meatless Fridays. I mean, many Catholics are obedient but not all of them are lacking memories. We’ve had 50+ years of Friday night hamburgers etc and it’s not been sinful all that time, and now what? At whose decree? Because Why? No.

Rather we just have to get something started because we need to form a practicum of what it is to be a Catholic again. What do Catholics do? They show up at mass at least weekly, yes. But what else do they do that’s VISIBLE, that’s DISTINCTIVE. This will work and that’s a beginning. Anything distinctive and visible would work just as well, and this might not even be the best thing but it’ll certainly work. This is a beginning. The old meaning will come back once we get it going. Trust me, having to tell your co-workers–in the restaurant, at the bar, over the pizza lunch–that you can’t eat meat on Fridays will be penance done for the sake of being Catholic. You don’t have to tell people that. The context will make it as clear as a sunny day.

 

[YoungTradCath]

I am not falling into any sort of “trap” but I do think we are coming at this from different places. I am not suggesting a sequencing of things because it is hard to do or because we lack resources. I am suggesting a sequencing of learning before implementation because I believe it would lead to more effective results.

I fear with such a rigid flow of things we will make the Faith into something like a factory assembly line. We only have one time to reintroduce this. Meaning, not everyone’s experience with meatless Fridays is going to be a jolt; that jolt will only happen once, if it is restored. Catholics of the future will not have that experience if this comes to happen. Their experience of it will be more natural.

 

[iloveangels]

I fear with such a rigid flow of things we will make the Faith into something like a factory assembly line.

No. Anyone who works with human beings uses tools if they don’t want the interchange to turn into chaos. There’s absolutely nothing wrong with doing things like you know how to do them if you do. This is a huge mistake that many Catholics make and it’s part of why the church looks (and sounds) like it does.

Believe it or not, if you don’t practice the piano, you’ll sound like a train wreck.
If you don’t teach using efficient and sound methods, nothing will get taught.
If you don’t plan Churches to be hospitable and functional, they turn into chaotic messes.
IF you don’t let people know what they’re supposed to be doing, or why, they’re not going to do it.

It’s pretty much just that simple.

 

[Megan7]

That’s awesome news!

No matter how delicious a meatless meal can be, I still feel that it’s a bit of a penance to not eat meat on a Friday. In other words, whether I wanted to eat a meat dish at my favorite restaurant or whether I felt like cooking chicken, I have to go against my will and deny myself.

For those who are vegetarian, and don’t eat meat anyway, one can still do a penance, by not eating lasagna or pizza and maybe eating plainer fare.

One thing that is apparent in this day is that the lack of a Catholic witness is affecting all parts of society. I believe meatless Fridays are a great witness.

Great news!

I have read other Christians saying that we as Catholics have lost our Catholic identity
because we do not keep up with a lot of our old practices.
I also find it interesting that in a lot of the Midwest, people of all faiths knew of
& enjoyed fish frys, because it was something Catholics did all year long.
I think you can still find some restaurants in the Midwest with only fish on fridays.
I have also heard of people (non Catholics) who kept this custom because
it was observed in town, so it rubbed off

I already do this, but I wish it was a rule, so everyone would do penance on friday & remember why we are doing it.

Thanks for the thread & post.

God bless,
Pax,
Megan

 

[YoungTradCath]

No. Anyone who works with human beings uses tools if they don’t want the interchange to turn into chaos. There’s absolutely nothing wrong with doing things like you know how to do them if you do. This is a huge mistake that many Catholics make and it’s part of why the church looks (and sounds) like it does.

Believe it or not, if you don’t practice the piano, you’ll sound like a train wreck.
If you don’t teach using efficient and sound methods, nothing will get taught.
If you don’t plan Churches to be hospitable and functional, they turn into chaotic messes.
IF you don’t let people know what they’re supposed to be doing, or why, they’re not going to do it.

It’s pretty much just that simple.

Correct. I do not believe this should just be thrown down and we run with it. I think it should be accompanied by catechesis of a suitable period of time, but at the same time I do not think we should spend a year ruminating on it or something.

 

[pete_29]

Why? I’ve already agreed with her

Puleeeze! You need to veil your sarcasm better.

 

[iloveangels]

Correct. I do not believe this should just be thrown down and we run with it. I think it should be accompanied by catechesis of a suitable period of time, but at the same time I do not think we should spend a year ruminating on it or something.

Okay, yes, that’s closer to what we’d ought to do. Announce it’s going to happen in 6 weeks. All the bishops go home and have a paragraph or two read, both before and after every mass for about 3 weeks running with the how and why, put it in all the diocesan papers and facebooks, and then go with it.

Ruminate on it for a year and it turns into a big “cause” with pro and con camps and people fabricate all kinds of malarky about it, because that’s what some people do. No. That would be worse than not having it at all, and would defeat the purpose. Give it about 6 weeks and a standard intro and go with it, if they’re going to do it.

 

[YoungTradCath]

Okay, yes, that’s closer to what we’d ought to do. Announce it’s going to happen in 6 weeks. All the bishops go home and have a paragraph or two read, both before and after every mass for about 3 weeks running with the how and why, put it in all the diocesan papers and facebooks, and then go with it.

Yes, something like that seems appropriate.