Meatless

[AlexV]

One amusing irony of the December 27 question is that the traditional breviary reminds us that St John used to preach only one sermon: Love one another.

 

[glendab]

Oh my goodness! You take me back to when I had all those things to learn. I only got half the picture when I went through RCIA. I was told there used to be a penance on Fridays, abstinence from meat, but it got changed. That is all they told me. It was okay to now eat meat on Fridays.

Well, guess what? I found out more as time went on.

First off we are still required to do penance on Friday for various reasons but the folks in the Third world felt excluded because they seldom have meat to eat to begin with and the Bishops from their countries brought it to the fore. So the penance was actually expanded that something not necessarily meat needed to be given up on Friday as penance. That way those who had no meat could participate in the observation of Friday’s penance.

Secondly we all have things that should be given up. Unless that is, you’re a Saint already. Bad habits are excellent stuff to get a handle on as a penance on Fridays. I’m a news junkie so some Fridays I go silent. I give up all media sources - no papers, magazines, radio, T.V., computer, etc. If I read anything it has to be a good book, i.e. my Bible or something spiritual. Some times it is hard to do and sometimes it is pretty easy. But it isn’t required of me under pain of sin. The universal penance on Fridays is still in force though it has changed a little.

I think it is wonderful that the grace of God is moving you to look at your sins. This is a very good thing. Don’t let anyone discourage you from penance. You will be making promises at your Baptism and if someone has influenced you to dismiss all the sin in your life, you’ll be at a loss on how to keep those same promises. You should also be getting instruction in your RCIA class on how to make a good Confession. If they don’t give you that, get a book!!!

Ask your RCIA sponsor. If they cannot answer your questions sufficiently, get some good reading material. Catholicism For Dummies is great! It is by Father John Trigilio. You could get it used at Amazon.

Welcome to the Family. I’m glad you’re home already.

Glenda

P.S. As for the picking of my own penance instead of just giving up meat, I got so jammed up about picking the “right” thing that I simply gave up meat. Now I simply give up meat on Fridays as penance and I’m good to go! DUH. If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it:thumbsup:

 

[AlexV]

Catholics in the USA were not “required” to do penance under pain of sin on Friday, 27 December, as others have amply demonstrated. Acts of penance are in laudable in se; the problem comes when self-appointed arbiters of orthodox Catholic practice seek to impose their wishes on everyone with the specter (whether more or less veiled or not) of sin.

 

[giuseppeTO]

Even though I’m not coming into the Church until Easter, I’ve been observing Friday penance and enjoying giving up something for the Lord. I’m more of a traditional person, so I’ve been observing Friday abstinence from meat on all Fridays. As I understand this, it is the international norm outside the US?

Couple of questions… This evening my future mother in law is making chili for dinner. So, I decided to skip lunch as my penance so I could eat the dinner. My MIL is Catholic. I don’t want to appear holier than thou refusing to eat her dinner. The problem is I feel guilty about this. It’s like I made a commitment on meatless Friday and broke it. How do those who do meatless Fridays handle such situations?

My other question is this: the couple of times I’ve screwed up and forgotten about the penance, I’ve done another penance. Is this the way to handle this? During lent, if you forget, would that be a sin?

Here are a couple of simple answers to your straightforward questions.

First off, one cannot sin by accident since sin is a act of our free will. If you forget to observe a practice or rule which may otherwise be sinful - for instance forgetting to assist at Mass on a Holy Day of Obligation, is never a sin as it is not an act of the will. The same applies to the laws of fasting and abstinence on the days which the church requires adherence.

Secondly, regarding abstinence from meat, it is generally regarded as an act contrary to charity to refuse to eat a meat dish you are served by your host. It is more charitable to accept the graciousness of the host without comments that would embarrass the host and perhaps observe another personal penance in its place as soon as practical, including the next day.

Hope that helps.

 

[Brendan_64]

I personally would partake in dinner and observe some other fast.
Do not feel guilty. You are not guilty of anything. Your fasting is not for the sake of fasting, it is done to bring you closer to God. You are enjoying a dinner made by your mother in law and I would think God would be pleased with your full participation in this meal. It you were breaking a mandatory Lenten fast, you would have a different situation.

 

[glendab]

Yo Guiseppe…

How on God’s green earth can you forget it is a Holy Day of Obligation? Why did you say that? You list yourself as Catholic. it is a Mortal sin to skip Mass on Holy Days, whether or not you forgot! You forget in the sixth grade, not as an adult! Hello!

Please don’t tell folks coming into the Church that sins that are mortal aren’t sins. That’s not good. Shame on you.

Here are a couple of simple answers to your straightforward questions.

First off, one cannot sin by accident since sin is a act of our free will. If you forget to observe a practice or rule which may otherwise be sinful - for instance forgetting to assist at Mass on a Holy Day of Obligation, is never a sin as it is not an act of the will. The same applies to the laws of fasting and abstinence on the days which the church requires adherence.

Secondly, regarding abstinence from meat, it is generally regarded as an act contrary to charity to refuse to eat a meat dish you are served by your host. It is more charitable to accept the graciousness of the host without comments that would embarrass the host and perhaps observe another personal penance in its place as soon as practical, including the next day.

Hope that helps.

Glenda

P.S. If I were your mother…

 

[Elizium23]

How on God’s green earth can you forget it is a Holy Day of Obligation? Why did you say that? You list yourself as Catholic. it is a Mortal sin to skip Mass on Holy Days, whether or not you forgot! You forget in the sixth grade, not as an adult! Hello!

Please don’t tell folks coming into the Church that sins that are mortal aren’t sins. That’s not good. Shame on you.

You need some catechism yourself, glenda, because you forgot the three essential conditions for a sin to be mortal: grave matter, full knowledge, and deliberate consent. Without all three of these conditions being true, a sin is not mortal. Whether it is sin at all is debatable, but as for having to go to confession or Hell because I forgot and ate meat, or because I didn’t know today was a HDO, you are incorrect.

 

[clem456]

whadda ya mean, you don’t eat no meat…

 

[Brendan_64]

abstaining might be a way of providing a good example for others.

Penance is something to be done in private, not as an example for others to follow. When you do penance, it is best that others don’t know about it at all.

 

[giuseppeTO]

Yo Guiseppe…

How on God’s green earth can you forget it is a Holy Day of Obligation? Why did you say that? You list yourself as Catholic. it is a Mortal sin to skip Mass on Holy Days, whether or not you forgot! You forget in the sixth grade, not as an adult! Hello!

Please don’t tell folks coming into the Church that sins that are mortal aren’t sins. That’s not good. Shame on you.

Glenda

P.S. If I were your mother…

Mom, I know this is you masquerading as Glenda! … and I didn’t say “skip” Mass.

I was referring to those mid-week Holy Days where one might conceivably (and honestly) forget it is a Holy Day of obligation - like New Years Day, or the feasts of the Immaculate Conception, Assumption. I have found that the best way to prevent this is to assist at Mass every day.

And remember Mom, you can’t commit a mortal sin accidentally.

 

[CathLifeHacker]

Everyone here would do well to research the Eastern Orthodox/Eastern Catholic mentality of fasting.

The Easterns would say when you are at someone else’s house you should accept what is in front of you, because the law of charity is more important than your personal fasting.

Here’s what an Eastern Orthodox website says about their fasting rules (which are much more strict than Roman Catholic rules)

This rule of fasting, to be sure, is not intended to be a “straight-jacket” for Orthodox believers, nor a source of pharisaical pride for anyone who keeps the letter of the Church’s law. It is rather the rule, the standard, against which each is to measure his own practice, and towards which one must always strive, according to one’s strength and circumstances. Whenever, for sickness or any other reason, one falls short of the rule, he applies to himself the spiritual medicine of self-reproach and strives to enter more fully into the spirit and discipline of fasting, which is indeed of great spiritual benefit to those who sincerely strive to follow it.

The question is…WHY do we fast…to obey a rule? To check off a box on a check-list? God does not need your fasting…YOU need to fast because you need to discipline the flesh and because of the other meanings of fasting (for example the Eucharistic Fast’s meaning is that of EXPECTATION)…you are preparing the way for Christ. You fast to mortify yourself…not to mortify others…therefore if you are the guest in a house and they put meat before you…just eat it, but when it is YOUR decision what to eat (when you are alone at home) be strict with yourself.

 

[clem456]

Everyone here would do well to research the Eastern Orthodox/Eastern Catholic mentality of fasting.

The Easterns would say when you are at someone else’s house you should accept what is in front of you, because the law of charity is more important than your personal fasting.

Here’s what an Eastern Orthodox website says about their fasting rules (which are much more strict than Roman Catholic rules)

The question is…WHY do we fast…to obey a rule? To check off a box on a check-list? God does not need your fasting…YOU need to fast because you need to discipline the flesh and because of the other meanings of fasting (for example the Eucharistic Fast’s meaning is that of EXPECTATION)…you are preparing the way for Christ. You fast to mortify yourself…not to mortify others…therefore if you are the guest in a house and they put meat before you…just eat it, but when it is YOUR decision what to eat (when you are alone at home) be strict with yourself.

The bolding is mine. Nice post.

 

[glendab]

I hate Liberals…

Oh dearie me! God died for you the least you can do is give up some of the meat in your teeth. Sheesh.

What would happen if the Church suddenly reverted to the older rules regarding fasting and abstinence? Total revolt around here at the Forums?

And then there’d be those Devil’s Advocates still trying to bargain away sins such as if you can not give a dictionary perfect definition of the sin stated then you haven’t sufficient knowledge enough for it to be a sin. How engaged was your will when you downed the meatballs on Friday? Hmmmmmmmm…did you give full consent to the extra helping of pork chops? Let’s see…what did Jesus do for you - died so you could eat some pan gravy with potatoes and meatloaf on Fridays outside of Lent. Yeah that’s it. What an example to follow for anyone seeking to get to Heaven. You can have your meatballs on Friday and eat them too!

Did I make my point?

Glenda

 

[Elizium23]

Glenda, nobody here is giving you a liberal interpretation, we are telling you what St. Thomas Aquinas said about mortal sin. Your rant came very close to something uncharitable; please stop hurling labels about when you don’t seem to know what you are talking about in the first place. Read your Catechism. Nobody is making excuses for a concrete instance of sin, we are just telling you the requirements. God protects us from our own mistakes and our own ignorance. Nobody ever entered Hell by accident. God is most just, but he is also the most merciful, do not forget that.

 

[Gary_Sheldrake]

Even though I’m not coming into the Church until Easter, I’ve been observing Friday penance and enjoying giving up something for the Lord. I’m more of a traditional person, so I’ve been observing Friday abstinence from meat on all Fridays. As I understand this, it is the international norm outside the US?

Couple of questions… This evening my future mother in law is making chili for dinner. So, I decided to skip lunch as my penance so I could eat the dinner. My MIL is Catholic. I don’t want to appear holier than thou refusing to eat her dinner. The problem is I feel guilty about this. It’s like I made a commitment on meatless Friday and broke it. How do those who do meatless Fridays handle such situations?

My other question is this: the couple of times I’ve screwed up and forgotten about the penance, I’ve done another penance. Is this the way to handle this? During lent, if you forget, would that be a sin?

They sell such a thing as meatless ground beef. You can make chili with it. I have been a vegetarian for over 10 years. When I make chili, I use the meatless ground beef and no one seems to notice the difference. Everyone says it tastes good. As a matter of honesty, everyone knows that when they eat at my house that they won’t be getting meat unless they specifically request it.

Thanks
Gary

 

[maryjk]

I hate Liberals…

Oh dearie me! God died for you the least you can do is give up some of the meat in your teeth. Sheesh.

What would happen if the Church suddenly reverted to the older rules regarding fasting and abstinence? Total revolt around here at the Forums?

And then there’d be those Devil’s Advocates still trying to bargain away sins such as if you can not give a dictionary perfect definition of the sin stated then you haven’t sufficient knowledge enough for it to be a sin. How engaged was your will when you downed the meatballs on Friday? Hmmmmmmmm…did you give full consent to the extra helping of pork chops? Let’s see…what did Jesus do for you - died so you could eat some pan gravy with potatoes and meatloaf on Fridays outside of Lent. Yeah that’s it. What an example to follow for anyone seeking to get to Heaven. You can have your meatballs on Friday and eat them too!

Did I make my point?

Glenda

Yes, you did.

Well, you made a point.

But it probably wasn’t the point you thought you were making.

 

[Jennifoo]

Penance is something to be done in private, not as an example for others to follow. When you do penance, it is best that others don’t know about it at all.

Yes and no. We as a Church do penance on Ash Wednesday, Good Friday and the Fridays of Lent- fast, abstinence and penitential prayers, such as the Stations of the Cross. Everyone knows, and we’re all in it together.

The Jews have penitential days as well.

Penance should not ONLY be done to be seen, but it doesn’t always have to be a secret, either. On one hand the Gospel cautions us not to do good works to be esteemed, but the Gospel also tells us to let our light shine before men so that others may see our good works and give glory to God.

 

[Brendan_64]

Yes and no. We as a Church do penance on Ash Wednesday, Good Friday and the Fridays of Lent- fast, abstinence and penitential prayers, such as the Stations of the Cross. Everyone knows, and we’re all in it together.

We come together to pray on , but our penance is private. Do people get up at Mass during Lent to announce what they are doing as penance? There are penitential days, and we pray together, but our individual fasting is done in private.

On one hand the Gospel cautions us not to do good works to be esteemed, but the Gospel also tells us to let our light shine before men so that others may see our good works and give glory to God.

The light that we are called to shine before men is the light of the Gospel and the works are acts of charity and love towards others. This does not include penance.

Specifically on fasting, Jesus said “And when you fast, do not look dismal, like the hypocrites, for they disfigure their faces that their fasting may be seen by men. Truly, I say to you, they have their reward. But when you fast, anoint your head and wash your face, that your fasting may not be seen by men but by your Father who is in secret; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you."

Jesus did not fast for 40 days in public, he did so in private. He did not do this so that others might see his fast and give glory to God.

 

[glendab]

Hello everyone. Just so you know I know the *minimum required *of Catholics regarding Fasting and Abstinence:

"Ash Wednesday and Good Friday are obligatory days of fasting and abstinence for Catholics. In addition, Fridays during Lent are obligatory days of abstinence.
For members of the Latin Catholic Church, the norms on fasting are obligatory from age 18 until age 59. When fasting, a person is permitted to eat one full meal. Two smaller meals may also be taken, but not to equal a full meal. The norms concerning abstinence from meat are binding upon members of the Latin Catholic Church from age 14 onwards.

Members of the Eastern Catholic Churches are to observe the particular law of their own sui iuris Church.

A Reflection on Lenten Fasting

If possible, the fast on Good Friday is continued until the Easter Vigil (on Holy Saturday night) as the “paschal fast” to honor the suffering and death of the Lord Jesus, and to prepare ourselves to share more fully and to celebrate more readily his Resurrection."

This quote was taken from the USCCB website: usccb.org/prayer-and-worship/liturgical-resources/lent/catholic-information-on-lenten-fast-and-abstinence.cfm

Here’s another: usccb.org/prayer-and-worship/liturgical-resources/lent/us-bishops-pastoral-statement-on-penance-and-abstinence.cfm

It begins by stating this: "A Statement Issued by the National Conference of Catholic Bishops November 18, 1966
“If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us… If we say that we have not sinned, we make [God] a liar, and His word is not in us” (1 Jn 1:8-10).

1. Thus Sacred Scriptures declare our guilt to be universal; hence the universal obligation to that repentance which Peter, in his sermon on Pentecost, declared necessary for the forgiveness of sin (Acts 2:38). Hence, too, the Church’s constant recognition that all the faithful are required by divine law to do penance. As from the fact of sin we Christians can claim no exception, so from the obligation to penance we can seek no exemption."

Some persons should read the whole thing. Note it says that the Universal obligation to penance hasn’t been lifted, just the means by which one can obtain it. If someone keeps no abstinence from meat on Fridays then he or she must find some other penitential practice. To not do so is a sin, the gravity of which I will not discuss because some accuse me of being scrupulous or not knowing my Catechism.

No, I am no expert. I do not pretend to be. But I am a good Catholic woman and I do keep the Laws. I agree with the Bishops that we are under obligation to do penance and since I couldn’t figure out my own, I simply accepted all Fridays as meatless including Lent, etc. I got told I was wrong to do so and didn’t know my catechism by someone who also said he does go meatless during the year himself. Oh I forgot, I’m ranting too. Ya know what? I’m doing more praying for folks since I jumped into this thread. So, it’s doing me some good.

Glenda

 

[ignatius777]

Even though I’m not coming into the Church until Easter, I’ve been observing Friday penance and enjoying giving up something for the Lord. I’m more of a traditional person, so I’ve been observing Friday abstinence from meat on all Fridays. As I understand this, it is the international norm outside the US?

Couple of questions… This evening my future mother in law is making chili for dinner. So, I decided to skip lunch as my penance so I could eat the dinner. My MIL is Catholic. I don’t want to appear holier than thou refusing to eat her dinner. The problem is I feel guilty about this. It’s like I made a commitment on meatless Friday and broke it. How do those who do meatless Fridays handle such situations?

My other question is this: the couple of times I’ve screwed up and forgotten about the penance, I’ve done another penance. Is this the way to handle this? During lent, if you forget, would that be a sin?

There is such a thing as scrupulosity and you seem to be venturing into here. To eat the chili at your mother in laws house on a Friday you decided to observe abstinence is NOT a sin. It would be sinful to create a scandal by going there and not eating it because you were abstaining. I wish catholics would get away from this guilt stuff. God knows our hearts, that’s what matters