Mecca stone/Sivalingam in Hinduism-same?

[Ahimsa]

Thanks again Ahmisa!

But where are the documents that state this? Not in Koran, pure conjecture.

Peace man.

Damascus,

Are you saying that the Qur’an doesn’t contain the info under question, or that ONLY the Qur’an contains the info under question – thus making the info inherently not trustworthy?

 

[Damascus]

About the Kaaba, I’ve seen quite a few websites stating that polytheistic pagan Arabs used to worship in similar ways on the same spot. And of course, Muhammed was raised in this pagan Arab culture. You can look up “moon god” and Islam if your interested in that side of things. Of course, Catholicism is accused of being pagan by detractors, too. That being said, I think focusing on the violence in Islam and the scientific and historical inaccuracies in the Quran are a much more effective ways to refute Islam.

How about this one?

I am starting another thread: Fanaticism in Islam- different madha-hib schools of thought go by Imam and what he says.

 

[shirleytowers]

As I read the original post, Damascus said the Hindus worship a rock and he did NOT say the Muslims worship the stone in Mecca. Which they don’t.

As Meedo said

*It was a stone that has decended from Heaven and was used to build the Kaba. It reflects the sin of humanity. It was white when it decended but as humans sin it grew darker untill it became black.

It isnt worshoiped and it doesnt have any powers.*

However, personally, I would consider the absorbtion of sin to be a power. So the object has power, it seems, but is not worshipped? If it doesn’t have power then how does it absorb sin? And if it absorbs sin, does that mean we don’t have sin on us, because it absorbed all the sin? Or does it only absorb some sin? Or is it now saturated? How does that work, exactly?

Just wondering!

 

[Damascus]

Damascus,

Are you saying that the Qur’an doesn’t contain the info under question, or that ONLY the Qur’an contains the info under question – thus making the info inherently not trustworthy?

Only saying that Abraham does not tell anyone after all his hard work how to use it. Yes it is mentioned most likely in Koran but no details on how they are to use it. I mean the Bible is very clear on worship methods and this is —not.

Plus no specifics on the building measurements. Or how it was built in Koran that I know of.

 

[Ahimsa]

As I read the original post, Damascus said the Hindus worship a rock and he did NOT say the Muslims worship the stone in Mecca. Which they don’t.

Actually, Hindus don’t worship rocks either. Many Hindus do venerate certain stones, but worship (as Catholics mean it) is only done for the Great God.

 

[Damascus]

As I read the original post, Damascus said the Hindus worship a rock and he did NOT say the Muslims worship the stone in Mecca. Which they don’t.

As Meedo said

*It was a stone that has decended from Heaven and was used to build the Kaba. It reflects the sin of humanity. It was white when it decended but as humans sin it grew darker untill it became black.

It isnt worshoiped and it doesnt have any powers.*

However, personally, I would consider the absorbtion of sin to be a power. So the object has power, it seems, but is not worshipped? If it doesn’t have power then how does it absorb sin? And if it absorbs sin, does that mean we don’t have sin on us, because it absorbed all the sin? Or does it only absorb some sin? Or is it now saturated? How does that work, exactly?

Just wondering!

Thanks Shirleytowers!

I only thought that Hiduism condoned worship of their rock since that is what I was told from a Hindu. I welcome someone telling me I am wrong, And Ahimsa says they dont. But that is weird when they do other things that connect to it I dont understand - but I’ll take his word on it.

 

[Saint_Michael]

The silk wropper is nice. It gets replaced every year. I saw estimates on the cost of that and how many feet of silk thread takes to make the Arabic letters on it and I could not help but wonder if the homeless muslims from the tusami would need that money for housing since they are still in tents.

As Catholics this is a just a bad way of attacking Islam (we shouldn’t be attacking it anyway). How many Catholics in Africa could selling some art the Vatican owns feed?

Anyway, the fact that the Muslims bow down pray and always face the ka’ba appears to be idolatry, at least if they use the same standard they judge us by.

 

[Damascus]

As Catholics this is a just a bad way of attacking Islam (we shouldn’t be attacking it anyway). How many Catholics in Africa could selling some art the Vatican owns feed?

Anyway, the fact that the Muslims bow down pray and always face the ka’ba appears to be idolatry, at least if they use the same standard they judge us by.

No, I am not attacking Islam when I say this. Tsunami victims- a lot of them Muslim are in tents.

Catholic charities serves all faiths and is the largest world wide charity orginazation, hardly think you can say we should be selling stuff to do more!

Not like Vatican City State has all the oil!!!

If every muslim gave 1.00 for the cause - it would be done!

They do almsgiving like us, but why their people are so destitute in many lands?

Anyway—as you say- my point in that post was a value of life thing.

Muslims value the letter of the law above the golden rule.

Anyway —as you said, they say they dont like praise to anyone but Allah.

I’m not convinced. That was the point of the thread and understanding why no details on the construction of something so important -if Abraham did somethig- it was pretty darn important- why so many missing details- like what to do with worship in regard with this “house” - details of Moses are very clear- they even love Moses and liken Muhhamed to him!
So show me how this paralles Moses with detailed worship instructions!!!
Or details on its measurements and size.

Plenty of details on the Temple they call solomons temple.

 

[Damascus]

Actually, Hindus don’t worship rocks either. Many Hindus do venerate certain stones, but worship (as Catholics mean it) is only done for the Great God.

How many “gods” and idols do they worship Mr. Ahimsa expert on all religions?

 

[Ahimsa]

How many “gods” and idols do they worship Mr. Ahimsa expert on all religions?

Damascus,

Oh man, that is a complicated question – and a loaded one. To the Hindu, there is no “idol” – no object that is considered to be equal to the Great God. Instead, there is the “murti”, which is a particular type of representation of some Divine Person, or Divine Incarnation. There is only one Great God, but this one Great God has appeared in the form of many Divine Persons or Incarnations.

[The above reflects the beliefs of many Hindus. It does not necessarily represent the belief of any one particular Hindu.]

 

[Ahimsa]

I’m not convinced. That was the point of the thread and understanding why no details on the construction of something so important -if Abraham did somethig- it was pretty darn important- why so many missing details- like what to do with worship in regard with this “house” - details of Moses are very clear- they even love Moses and liken Muhhamed to him!
So show me how this paralles Moses with detailed worship instructions!!!
Or details on its measurements and size.

Plenty of details on the Temple they call solomons temple.

Damascus,

Are you an accountant or something? You seem to have a strong need for detailed instructions.

 

[Damascus]

Damascus,

Oh man, that is a complicated question – and a loaded one. To the Hindu, there is no “idol” – no object that is considered to be equal to the Great God. Instead, there is the “murti”, which is a particular type of representation of some Divine Person, or Divine Incarnation. There is only one Great God, but this one Great God has appeared in the form of many Divine Persons or Incarnations.

[The above reflects the beliefs of many Hindus. It does not necessarily represent the belief of any one particular Hindu.]

Peace Ahimsa and thank you again.
Can you see that you have been very judgmental of me? How do you know me to do that?
If you think I am being a basher by spending time learning other faiths and seeking answers to questions you may already know answers to - are you not being superior and arrogant?
I am a simple person with simple questions seeking ansers. you made me feel small. If your faith requires that of you, to make others feel that seeking or not knowing as much as you and you have to rub my nose in it and not be kind, who are you to do this?
Jesus never made anyone feel bad - he was a teacher and shared his infinate wisdom to us unworthy. You have falsely judged me.
I am really asking worthy questions since at least I ask and try to have an interest in more than me.
Knowing how small I am.

 

[Ahimsa]

Peace Ahimsa and thank you again.
Can you see that you have been very judgmental of me? How do you know me to do that?
If you think I am being a basher by spending time learning other faiths and seeking answers to questions you may already know answers to - are you not being superior and arrogant?
I am a simple person with simple questions seeking ansers. you made me feel small. If your faith requires that of you, to make others feel that seeking or not knowing as much as you and you have to rub my nose in it and not be kind, who are you to do this?
Jesus never made anyone feel bad - he was a teacher and shared his infinate wisdom to us unworthy. You have falsely judged me.
I am really asking worthy questions since at least I ask and try to have an interest in more than me.
Knowing how small I am.

Hi Damascus,

I apologize if I came across as judgmental. I guess you’re referring to the ‘loaded’ phrase, which was not meant as ‘judgmental’. It was ‘loaded’ simply because the word ‘idol’ has many negative connotations that Christians place upon it, that Hindus do not. And you really did ask a very complicated question!

 

[Damascus]

Hi Damascus,

I apologize if I came across as judgmental. I guess you’re referring to the ‘loaded’ phrase, which was not meant as ‘judgmental’. It was ‘loaded’ simply because the word ‘idol’ has many negative connotations that Christians place upon it, that Hindus do not. And you really did ask a very complicated question!

Lets be friends Ahimsa, I have no other wish. I mean no harm.
I value your knowledge, and hope you will help me find answers without seeking fault in me for asking is all.

Peace, and good will.

 

[silverwings_88]

How many “gods” and idols do they worship Mr. Ahimsa expert on all religions?

Well, it depends on what school of Hinduism you take: polytheistic, monistic (in my opinion, the majority of Hinduism), or monotheistic.

Hinduism is more of religiously infused culture. The concept of Hinduism as a collective religion is a Western innovation.

Plus, Catholicism isn’t a religion, nor really is Christianity in all. Catholicism is the universal Church on Earth.

But that phallic shivalingam reminds me of the tribal cultures that celebrate the phallus as a symbol of life, strength, harvest and fertility… shudders

 

[Damascus]

Well, it depends on what school of Hinduism you take: polytheistic, monistic (in my opinion, the majority of Hinduism), or monotheistic.

Hinduism is more of religiously infused culture. The concept of Hinduism as a collective religion is a Western innovation.

Plus, Catholicism isn’t a religion, nor really is Christianity in all. Catholicism is the universal Church on Earth.

But that phallic shivalingam reminds me of the tribal cultures that celebrate the phallus as a symbol of life, strength, harvest and fertility… shudders

Thanks for helping me out on that one.

See how different that thinking is in contrast to Islamic thought?
That is why I wondered about this… And which came first?
Whatever, It really does not look like there is enough of a connection here as I had thought.
I just find it odd that something so important like Allahs throne on earth as they call it would have more details and explanations involved in its begginings, and Abraham was so important you would think there would be much more on this.
Its hard to look at this as a special place when Meedo cant convince me why so little is said about it and its being buit and how to use it.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

I often wondered about the black stone in Mecca and the Sivalingam (rock that is worshipped in Hiduism) so I found the Hindu explanation of the word and wondered what the definition of the black rock in Mecca is all about…Anyone know? It seems to be the only 2 faiths I noticed that do stuff with rocks.

The word “linga” in Sanskrit means “sign” or “mark.” It also means “phallus” or “penis.” The Shivalingam at its most literal level represents the union of the male symbol, i.e., the phallus, with the female symbol, i.e., the yoni or vagina. The union of Male and Female may be viewed as a symbol of creation.

However, biological gender in Tantra is used as a metaphor for one being in two aspects. Men and women are human beings. In this aspect they are one. But the gender difference makes them also different, two different aspects of one humanity.

In a similar way Consciousness is one, but it has two aspects, a dynamic aspect and a static, witnessing aspect. The dynamic aspect in Hindu Tantra is represented by the Feminine, Mahadevi. She creates the world from her own being and plays in the world as all the forms we see, humans, animals, and plants, and all inanimate objects, also. The Witness aspect is represented by the Male aspect, Mahadeva, or Shiva. He merely watches the Mother’s play. So at its most abstract level the lingam represents Consciousness (cit) in its two aspects.

There is another purpose for the symbol. The goal of spiritual life is to realize directly the one Consciousness that has become everything, i.e., to see God everywhere. By representing the Deity in the form of sex organs, we are invited to see the Divine in sex as well as in other phenomena in this world. It is an affirmation of non-dual Truth. This applies also to the violent and horrific imagery we see in some tantric art. There is nothing in this world that is outside the Divine Being.

So, you see how rich is the symbolism of the Shivalingam that represents the Divine from its grossest to subtlest aspects.

The linga is a divine “body part” (that is the only phrase I can think of) which represents the god whose body part it is.​

The Black Stone is more like a sacred pillar (see Genesis 28) or a household god - it’s a material object which represents that which is divine, but not in quite the same way as a part of the body. IIRC, Siva is also known as Sthanu (= pillar)

Pictures of the linga remind me of an egg - is there a connection with the world-egg, or is that sheer fantasy ?

The problem I see in viewng everything as an expression of the divine, is that one cannot rule out the presence of the demonic; one is giving it room along with other manifestations of divinity. Shiva may be the great ascetic, but he is also the great destroyer. Sexuality as an expression of the divine is all very well, but it can lead to some very cruel developments. ##

 

[undeserving]

When Hindu’s worship at the Shivling a mans phallus is the last thought in their mind. They see it as a manifestation of their god,a symbolic presence you might say. They have a great devotion to Shiva, he is the god-guru of l the yogi’s, swamies, and those who have detached themselves from the world.

 

[Damascus]

When Hindu’s worship at the Shivling a mans phallus is the last thought in their mind. They see it as a manifestation of their god,a symbolic presence you might say. They have a great devotion to Shiva, he is the god-guru of l the yogi’s, swamies, and those who have detached themselves from the world.

That is a great explanation but one that is not sound in my mind., Thank you for giving me the details- But it makes no sense to me at all.
“their god” is not clear - their idea of a presence is somewhat different than what I can reconcile with. I agree they have a deep devotion to Shiva and many other images and dolls they bring to Fatima. God Love Them, May he be merciful to them as they know not better.

Jesus (Peace is him!) will patiently wait for them to get on board!

 

[undeserving]

I hope so Damescus, my dearest friend is a deeply devout Hindu, who is more like a Catholic in his spirituality.