"Mediatrix?"

[Chatter163]

Well, even St. Peter had his doubts, are you going to condemn him too?

It’s not the doubting, it’s the way that it is handled. Coming into a Catholic forum and asking if other Catholics “have problems” appears to be someone trying to stir up dissent. I don’t recall St. Peter trying to recruit others to justify whatever doubts he may have had. Better to ask in the way I mentioned above.

 

[TimothyH]

stewstew03;9097498:

DJK100, perhaps God is calling you to correct those misunderstandings (with a charitable spirit of course).

Hi Stew,

I guess I made myself misunderstood. I have no problem and understand of Mary’s role in God’s plan and in our lives. I just don’t like the term Mediatrix because people who don’t have a firm grasp of those things use that title as a source of confusion and dissent. Just look at the OP first comment.

In times such as these when the Christendom is so divided I think it is more important to explain the truths rather than sticking to a word that, wether justly or unjustly, is inflammatory for some and immediately a turn off for others so thay they do not open their minds to the what the teachings actually are. After all it is the teachings that are most important and not how you label what the teachings are.

I think CLmomry, says it very succiently in the post directly above mine. The point he makes is exactly point I was trying to make.

EDIT: HI Stew, I reread you post to me and I think I intially mistook the tone of your post. I think you were saying to correct others misundertanding rather than my own. Rest assured I do that the best I can with any opportunity that presents itself.

I’d be interested in how you would describe it. I ask sincerely.

Here in the deep south I am careful not to talk to people in terms that sould too Catholic becuase I understand that it can sound threatening to them. I fully understand what you are trying to say. Trust me, I live in Cobb County, Georgia.

But the truth is that all grace comes to us through the hands of Mary and I wonder if there is a way to address the doctrine which is less threatening than addressing Mary as “Mediatrix of all Grace”.

I have successfully introduced one man to the Catholic beliefs about Mary in a non threatening way by pointing out the Queens in the Bible, and how Mary was and is a Queen. It is a start.

But how do we explain that grace comes to us through the hands of the Mother of Jesus in a non threatening way?

-Tim-

 

[BListon]

It’s not the doubting, it’s the way that it is handled. Coming into a Catholic forum and asking if other Catholics “have problems” appears to be someone trying to stir up dissent. I don’t recall St. Peter trying to recruit others to justify whatever doubts he may have had. Better to ask in the way I mentioned above.

Yeah, I suppose I could have worded that differently… sorry

 

[TimothyH]

Yes and no.

Yes: It is unnecessarily confusing language about a subject that is of little importance except to those who want to beat the Catholic Church over the head with it.

No: What the concept is used to describe is theologically correct.

Chuck

But it is important.

Jesus came into creation through Mary…

And the Word became flesh
and made his dwelling among us,
and we saw his glory,
the glory as of the Father’s only Son,
full of grace and truth.
(John 1:14)

Jesus is grace. Jesus is truth. Since Jesus came into the world through Mary, then grace and truth came into the world through Mary. Truth comes into the world through Mary. Grace comes to the world through Mary.

All grace comes to us through the hands of Mary. Every conversion of every sinner occurs because Mary decides to touch their heart, convert them, and pour grace into their life. Every bit of sanctifying grace which we recieve in the confessional is given to us by Mary. Every grace from every prayer and every good work comes to us from the hands of Mary.

Jesus is grace, and Jesus came into the world through Mary. It’s quite logical, and theologically sound, and vitally important to us because that is how every single one of us are converted.

This idea of Jesus apart from his Mother was unheard of throughout most of Christianity. If you went back 100 years and asked if Mary was the Mediatrix of Grace, everyone would say “Of course” and no one would raise an eyebrow, and prayer to Mary was common, because they all knew that Mary was the quickest and easiest way to Christ.

-Tim-

 

[clmowry]

I don’t disagree.

I think the word “Mediatrix” is unnecessary and unimportant, not the theological concepts behind its creation and usage.

That said, I’m not sure what a better term would be. Many non-Catholics just seem, at least to me, to be overly sensitive to any thing that looks like “Mediate” or “Merit”.

Not that it much matters, folks take serious swipes at "Theotokos."

How anyone could object to Mary being the Mother of God is beyond me, but that doesn’t seem to stop it.

Chuck

But it is important.

Jesus came into creation through Mary…
And the Word became flesh
and made his dwelling among us,
and we saw his glory,
the glory as of the Father’s only Son,
full of grace and truth.
(John 1:14)
Jesus is grace. Jesus is truth. Since Jesus came into the world through Mary, then grace and truth came into the world through Mary. Truth comes into the world through Mary. Grace comes to the world through Mary.

All grace comes to us through the hands of Mary. Every conversion of every sinner occurs because Mary decides to touch their heart, convert them, and pour grace into their life. Every bit of sanctifying grace which we recieve in the confessional is given to us by Mary. Every grace from every prayer and every good work comes to us from the hands of Mary.

Jesus is grace, and Jesus came into the world through Mary. It’s quite logical, and theologically sound, and vitally important to us because that is how every single one of us are converted.

This idea of Jesus apart from his Mother was unheard of throughout most of Christianity. If you went back 100 years and asked if Mary was the Mediatrix of Grace, everyone would say “Of course” and no one would raise an eyebrow, and prayer to Mary was common, because they all knew that Mary was the quickest and easiest way to Christ.

-Tim-

 

[stewstew03]

But how do we explain that grace comes to us through the hands of the Mother of Jesus in a non threatening way?

It’s difficult - I live in the South as well.

I think the key is to be ready to respond to their misunderstandings about Mary.

I posted an explanation about Mary’s “highly favored” status here.

 

[TimothyH]

I don’t disagree.

I think the word “Mediatrix” is unnecessary and unimportant, not the theological concepts behind its creation and usage.

That said, I’m not sure what a better term would be. Many non-Catholics just seem, at least to me, to be overly sensitive to any thing that looks like “Mediate” or “Merit”.

Not that it much matters, folks take serious swipes at "Theotokos."

How anyone could object to Mary being the Mother of God is beyond me, but that doesn’t seem to stop it.

Chuck

OK. I got ya… Now I’m on the same page.

I live in the deep south. About the only place more Evangelical than rural Georgia is East Tennesee, and so I know exactly what you mean.

We have to be careful of what we say so that we don’t offend. It is difficult to approach subjects like this in the right way. Scott Hahn once said that you don’t grab a Southern Baptist by the collar and start telling him why he has to be wearing the Brown Scapular of Our Lady of Mount Carmel. It’s not the first thing he needs to hear.

Even Paul blew it in Acts 17 when he had everyone at the Acropolis in Greece listening to him and interested in what he had to say. He went too far though, and brought up the ressurection of the dead and that is when everyone walked away. It’s actually quite funny to read.

But I think Mary is one area where we often miss an opportunity to show the beauty of some basic Catholic beliefs. I am not afraid to speak about Mary if the opportunity arises, and often go to Revelation 12:17 to show where we get the fact that Mary is our Mother and that we are her “offspring”. I have also had success recently showing an aquaintance how all the queens of the Old Testament were the mother of the king, and therefor why Catholics call Mary a queen. My goal is to show one beautiful Catholic belief, that’s it, and leave it there. My goal is to have them walk away saying, “You know, that is pretty cool. I never thought of it like that.” and leave it there. God does the rest.

I think Catholics miss many opportunities to speak about the beauty of our faith by shying away from Marian doctrine out of fear of offending. Yes, we have to be careful, and we can’t beat people over the head, but I say to try it if the opportunity presents itself.

Mary is often the first place I go when speaking with non-Catholics. You really can’t go wrong with Mary, but have to be able to do so gently, as she would wish us to do.

-Tim-

 

[Carlan]

Sorry,i don’t understood it. http://www.ckyo.info/jpg

As Mediatrix, Mary the mother of Christ takes our prayers to her Son, he in turn, as the only Mediator between us and the Father, takes her prayer to the Father. Because of Mary’s closeness to Jesus we believe her prayers to be very powerful and that the graces given to us, in answer from the Father, because of her intercession flow back to us through her also. This is what the Church believes and what I believe.
Peace, Carlan

 

[DJK100]

DJK100;9099743:

I’d be interested in how you would describe it. I ask sincerely.

Here in the deep south I am careful not to talk to people in terms that sould too Catholic becuase I understand that it can sound threatening to them. I fully understand what you are trying to say. Trust me, I live in Cobb County, Georgia.

But the truth is that all grace comes to us through the hands of Mary and I wonder if there is a way to address the doctrine which is less threatening than addressing Mary as “Mediatrix of all Grace”.

I have successfully introduced one man to the Catholic beliefs about Mary in a non threatening way by pointing out the Queens in the Bible, and how Mary was and is a Queen. It is a start.

But how do we explain that grace comes to us through the hands of the Mother of Jesus in a non threatening way?

-Tim-

Initially I try and shy away from the “controversial terms” when trying to explain Mariology as I think the intial concepts are more important. At least for me, I have found that if I throw terms out there like Mediatrix or even intercessor initially, people focus and jump on those words as an “A-Ha, I knew it about those Catholics!” moment. It then becomes the person not really listening to what you are saying but beginning to marshal arguments in their head against you or just tuning you out all together. I have found it most useful to start kind of how like you about how all grace comes through Jesus and he is our sole mediator. Then I kind of go into how different people bring others to Jesus – just as most “born agains” had someone reignite their own passions. Then I bring up that it is no different for Mary as she wants to bring us to her son. Eventually you can get around to she is a intercessor par excellance and all the ususal arguements in favor of Mary. But I have found that if you couch the inital discussion about Mary in very Jesus terms people become more interested and are willing to explore more because “they didn’t know that” or view it as a less threatening belief rather than a usurption of a facet that only God can have.

 

[grandfather]

The Old Testament points to the New. We see types of Jesus in Old Testament figures.

Father Abraham who God promised to bless in his posterity is willing to sacrifice his only son. Moses frees the Jews from slavery and leads them to the promised land. The wise King Solomon is king of the Jews and builds a glorious kingdom and temple, with his mother sitting on a throne next to him.

It might be helpful to read the OT Book of Esther and ask why such a story would be in the Old Testament, part of salvation history. It might help give a perspective on the role of the Queen of Heaven in the salvation of her people.

It might also be helpful to read about Judith in the same light.

A Protestant friend was studying the Book of Esther with great enthusiasm as Protestants approach everything biblical. I mentioned that Esther reflected Mary. He was astonished. He said, “You mean to say that in typology Esther is seen as Mary?” I said, how could anyone not see that. He said, “Because we do not believe Mary intercedes for us.” I asked if he only sees in the Bible what he already believes, or is looking for to confirm his belief, or is he looking to see what is really there. The conversation ended, but his look acknowledged my point. He missed the obvious, was blind to it.

Mary should be extolled by the Church, because she is extolled by God. She is the Queen of Heaven. As with Esther the king cannot refuse her request. She puts herself at risk to come into His presence and plead for her people. The king does whatever she asks, saves her people and destroys the enemy of her people, because he is so taken with the great beauty of his queen.

There it all is, right in the Protestant Bible. If anyone has a problem with Mary’s mediation, go read the Bible. We are so worried about offending people with our faith. What is offensive is calling the Mother of God a common ordinary woman, no different than any other.