medical and pregnancy

[kittyplant]

Here is the problem.

1ke has been with CAF for years. She has many posts.

You on the other hand have been here for for just over a week. With just a few posts.

So we look back at your posts. Many are starting a thread with a question, but never returning to answer questions or to give more information. Some are attacks on posters that are trying to answer your questions.

So, what are we to get from that?
How about you back off for a second?

You posted a question about “medical and pregnancy.” Your question had to do with taking medication and getting pregnant.

Pretty much anyone *can *answer that question. I don’t need to know anything about your illness. I just need to know that you are taking medication and you might want to get pregnant in the future. And that is all the information anyone needed to answer your question.

Sorry, but it just seems that you didn’t *like *1ke’s answer, rather than she gave you a bad answer.

no, you are wrong and you are proving my point further. this is a public internet forum. who cares if i just showed up? that is irrelevant. the site is here for people who want to engage in discussion, get answers and find ideas. the length of time you’ve been posting on forums is irrelevant. you are getting emotional because of sentimentality. i am talking about social norms and common sense.

yes, my post said “medical and pregnancy.” that can pique many people’s interest. BUT a quick reading of my short post shows the specifics i am looking for. ok then, here is the point where people without the relevant knowledge need to graze other grounds. no, i did not like her answer and i did not like the answers she gave on my other posts but this one was the last straw for me. from the first answer i received from her she rubbed me the wrong way. when i read this one, however, i said ‘you know what, please go away.’

 

[thewanderer]

me asking questions then not participating - not robotic… more like shy? cautious.
and the way you guys are acting now is making me remember why i was wary to begin with - people on internet forums get cliquey. are you all now just going to defend 1ke for some weird internet camaraderie? no, her comment was not relevant. just because i asked a question on a public forum doesn’t mean i want every person with an opinion to answer. obviously i am expecting that someone with knowledge and experience will answer. the chances of that are high because many people deal with meds and mental illness. if you don’t know, why would you run your mouth off? seriously. what attracts you to the question? if it’s not the ability to give a useful answer then what is it? just looks to me like the person is not all that wise. just runnin’ their mouth.

The reason people came to 1Ke’s defence is because one, she generally provides wonderful, informative posts (although I can definitely see why you would call them robotic, or devoid of emotion, she tends to just give a very straightforward answers rather than showing empathy), and two the response she gave was the best that she could with the knowledge she has of your condition (She does not know the details of you particular condition, the medications you are currently taking, or whether there are possible substitutes that you could take without harming an unborn child). To be honest, since none of us are aware of your particular medical history, with the specific medications you are taking, or are medical practitioners, all any of us can do is tell you to confer with your doctor as to how or if it will be possible for you in your condition to become pregnant. And, even if we did have all of the above information and were qualified medical practitioners it is specifically against the forums rules to provide medical advice on this forum, so even if that were the case none of us could give you a better answer than that which 1ke gave you, speak to your doctor about what it would take medically for you to be able to have a child, none of us here are qualified to help you with that question.

I hope you don’t take what I’ve said to be unsympathic, uncaring, or as trying to run my mouth off about something I don’t know anything about. I am someone with personal experience of the issues that can come along with mental health problems. My brother was diagnosed with Schizophrenia a couple of years ago, he has gone through multiple different drugs before finally finding something that at least helps him avoid becoming catatonic, but he is far from being perfectly healthy. What I have learned very clearly from this whole ordeal is that you can’t assume that just because a medicine worked for someone else with similar issues it will work for you. Which is precisely why all we can say is speak to your doctor, find out from him, the only person who knows you and your exact medical history and treatment, what your possibilities and options are, other people can give you uplifiting stories of how they had bi-polar and were still able to work through the medical issues to have kids, but they can not assure you that what worked for them will work for you, mental health issues are so complicated, and people react to the medications used to treat them so differently that there really isn’t much else we can say on the topic. Know that I will keep you in my prayers, I have great sympathy for all who either personally suffer from mental health issues or have loved-ones who do. God Bless.

 

[Rau]

me asking questions then not participating - not robotic… more like shy? cautious.
and the way you guys are acting now is making me remember why i was wary to begin with - people on internet forums get cliquey. are you all now just going to defend 1ke for some weird internet camaraderie? no, her comment was not relevant. just because i asked a question on a public forum doesn’t mean i want every person with an opinion to answer. obviously i am expecting that someone with knowledge and experience will answer. the chances of that are high because many people deal with meds and mental illness. if you don’t know, why would you run your mouth off? seriously. what attracts you to the question? if it’s not the ability to give a useful answer then what is it? just looks to me like the person is not all that wise. just runnin’ their mouth.

Perhaps you are shy and cautious. I believe you, assisted in that belief by you participating!

You can’t get expert medical advice here, and your question has a medical element. To target just the right people to answer your question, I could only recommend a catholic doctor. No one here, including an arbitrary bipolar sufferer on meds can know your specific medical situation, and the challenges (or otherwise) that pregnancies present for you. They can tell you their experience, (though you didn’t ask for that actually).

You can get expert moral and faith related information here, though what it means for you will depend on your medical situation. And you will certainly get opinion here. That’s the nature of a discussion forum. You can largely eliminate the opinion by using the “Ask an Apologist” part of the forum.

Going back to your original question, if you’ve not had the issued adequately answered, please spell out the gap.

 

[kittyplant]

I wasn’t really asking for medical advice, I was asking about NFP. TraderTif and at least one other poster got the gist of what I was going for and definitely answered my question adequately. I don’t know where people got the idea that I was upset at 1ke for not having medical advice. But I’ve already tried to explain where I was coming from with that to little avail. big sigh.

 

[thewanderer]

I wasn’t really asking for medical advice, I was asking about NFP. TraderTif and at least one other poster got the gist of what I was going for and definitely answered my question adequately. I don’t know where people got the idea that I was upset at 1ke for not having medical advice. But I’ve already tried to explain where I was coming from with that to little avail. big sigh.

Kitty, I think this post was made people respond about the medical issues.

But really, the thing that made me tell her not to answer my posts is she said that I should ask my doctor if I should have children at all. what. the. eff. really? And what makes her think that I can’t have children? Because I have bipolar? It’s such an offensive thing to put out there and shows she has zero knowledge about the topic, about people with mental illness. Maybe she didn’t mean anything by it, and it is my personal sensitivity, but still - it shows she doesn’t know anything about bipolar, so why did she answer? People with wisdom know when not to stick their nose into things.

Here, you are clearly upset at 1ke because she didn’t assume you will medically be able to have kids. Even if she suffered from bi-polar herself (and she very well may, I do not know what her medical history is) her response was still the best she would be able to give. That you will need to consult with your doctor about your medications to determine whether it will be possible for you, and, if possible, what will be the best route. 1ke answered your question about abstinence and then went out of her way to go even further by giving you more advice, more things that are important for a person with bipolar who is thinking about having children to consider and think about. And sure, maybe its something you’ve already thought about, or realize that you will need to do, but 1Ke meant her post to be helpful and thoughtful. The reason people focused on the medical aspect of all this is because that was the part of 1Ke’s response that you particularly singled out as having made you upset.

At any rate, I hope you can get past the hard feelings this misunderstanding has caused you and come to appreciate CAF for the great place that it is, there are so many wonderful and helpful people on here who are truly just trying to help.

 

[Corki]

no, you are wrong and you are proving my point further. this is a public internet forum. who cares if i just showed up? that is irrelevant. the site is here for people who want to engage in discussion, get answers and find ideas. the length of time you’ve been posting on forums is irrelevant. you are getting emotional because of sentimentality. i am talking about social norms and common sense.

’

Sorry to “pile on” but that’s not the way most internet forums work. The longer and more involved a person is on a forum, the more credibility they have and the more privileges are granted. Some forums have a “reputation” system (CAF did many years ago) others use a titling system. Every poster here has a title that reflects time and volume of posts. If someone has the title of Forum Elder, it means not only has she been here a while but she has been very involved and stayed out of trouble. That is very relevant.

yes, my post said “medical and pregnancy.” that can pique many people’s interest. BUT a quick reading of my short post shows the specifics i am looking for. ok then, here is the point where people without the relevant knowledge need to graze other grounds. no, i did not like her answer and i did not like the answers she gave on my other posts but this one was the last straw for me. from the first answer i received from her she rubbed me the wrong way. when i read this one, however, i said 'you know what, please go away.

Unlike Yahoo Answers, this isn’t the kind of place where the OP gets to grade the answers or decide which ones should stay. This is a discussion forum and while new topics and questions are always great, once posted, many threads include lots more information than the original poster intended.

And one last thing, although I know you are touchy on the subject, I know of at least one person in my family who cannot have children due to bi-polar. It’s not that she can’t physically get pregnant but she can’t be off her meds long enough to conceive and carry a child to term.

 

[kittyplant]

i’m tired of this.

 

[kittyplant]

whatever the dweeby rules are i’m thankful to 1ke for respecting my request.

 

[Rau]

… I know of at least one person in my family who cannot have children due to bi-polar. It’s not that she can’t physically get pregnant but she can’t be off her meds long enough to conceive and carry a child to term.

I was wondering if that situation could arise.

If one is in that situation and unmarried, and forms the view “I will not have children for so long as this medical situation persists” - does that then become an impediment to marriage? Or, because one’s attitude to children would change if medical science provided a solution down the track, could one marry?

 

[Corki]

I was wondering if that situation could arise.

If one is in that situation and unmarried, and forms the view “I will not have children for so long as this medical situation persists” - does that then become an impediment to marriage? Or, because one’s attitude to children would change if medical science provided a solution down the track, could one marry?

Only if it is so bad that the couple cannot consummate their marriage. Intending to permanently exclude children from the marriage is an impediment but a couple who would love to welcome children should it become medically feasible is not excluding children. They are delaying children until it is medically prudent.

 

[Rau]

Only if it is so bad that the couple cannot consummate their marriage. Intending to permanently exclude children from the marriage is an impediment but a couple who would love to welcome children should it become medically feasible is not excluding children. They are delaying children until it is medically prudent.

Thank heavens for common sense!

 

[thewanderer]

Only if it is so bad that the couple cannot consummate their marriage. Intending to permanently exclude children from the marriage is an impediment but a couple who would love to welcome children should it become medically feasible is not excluding children. They are delaying children until it is medically prudent.

And even then, thats only if its a physical inability to consummate the marriage. It would also be possible for them to have an unconsummated Josephite marriage so long as it is not physically impossible for them to consumate the marriage.

 

[Rau]

And even then, thats only if its a physical inability to consummate the marriage. It would also be possible for them to have an unconsummated Josephite marriage so long as it is not physically impossible for them to consumate the marriage.

The focus of my question was on the intention not to attempt to have children, not any suggestion of an inability to consummate. The former can be an impediment to marriage, eg if a couple simply does not want children. Corki’s answer points out that medical prudence eliminates that issue.

 

[underacloud]

kittyplant, you are not the first poster to take umbrage at 1ke’s rather blunt style. That said, as others have pointed out, 1ke does make some very helpful contributions on this forum, when you can accept her blunt manner.

obviously if i am catholic and care enough about it to try to find answers then i know about vocations and callings and have been wondering about them my whole life. give people credit, the benefit of the doubt, etc.

Unfortunately, it is not obvious. Many people who are Catholic and searching for answers do not know much at all about vocations/callings and have not stopped to consider the issue deeply. It’s great that you have, but it can’t be assumed of all posters. Many (most?) people coast along without much serious thought as to what God’s will for their life is.

As for wanting the benefit of the doubt, that is fair enough. Just consider whether you are offering 1ke the same benefit of the doubt that you want fom her. Her communication style might not be to your liking, but she is just trying to help.

 

[thewanderer]

The focus of my question was on the intention not to attempt to have children, not any suggestion of an inability to consummate. The former can be an impediment to marriage, eg if a couple simply does not want children. Corki’s answer points out that medical prudence eliminates that issue.

Oh, I understood that. I was just claryfing something Corki said. When he/she said that the only reason they couldn’t marry is if “it” was so bad that they couldn’t consummate their marriage. If what Corki meant by that is that they have a physical impediment to consummation then that is correct. If he/she meant only that they are so afraid of the consequences they decide it is unwise and unsafe to consummate the marriage then he/she is incorrect. In such a case they may still validly marry as there is no impediment to marriage.

 

[Corki]

Oh, I understood that. I was just claryfing something Corki said. When he/she said that the only reason they couldn’t marry is if “it” was so bad that they couldn’t consummate their marriage. If what Corki meant by that is that they have a physical impediment to consummation then that is correct. If he/she meant only that they are so afraid of the consequences they decide it is unwise and unsafe to consummate the marriage then he/she is incorrect. In such a case they may still validly marry as there is no impediment to marriage.

Thanks for the clarification of what I meant to say.

 

[MJJean]

And one last thing, although I know you are touchy on the subject, I know of at least one person in my family who cannot have children due to bi-polar. It’s not that she can’t physically get pregnant but she can’t be off her meds long enough to conceive and carry a child to term.

I knew two women who were advised against having children due to being bi-polar and on meds. Both did not respond well to other medications that did not cause harm to unborn babies and were not able to safely be taken off their regular meds. Both became a danger to themselves and others when off their medications. One of the women did become pregnant anyways and was weaned off her medication for the latter stages of pregnancy when the medication was known to cause the most harm to the developing baby. The mothers mental health declined. The baby was born early by scheduled c-section so that the mother could be put back on her meds. .

And even then, thats only if its a physical inability to consummate the marriage. It would also be possible for them to have an unconsummated Josephite marriage so long as it is not physically impossible for them to consumate the marriage.

I do know that some medications cause men erectile dysfunction. If a man were on medication that was necessary for his mental health and caused impotence could he validly marry the same as a woman who couldn’t safely become pregnant? I mean, if the woman is merely seen as delaying pregnancy until medical advancement makes it safe, than wouldn’t the man be seen as delaying consummation until medical science advanced enough to provide him with a medication that did not make him impotent?*

*yes, I know there are a few drugs that can help men with erectile dysfunction, but those drugs can interact badly with other medications, are not guaranteed to work, and can be dangerous for other health reasons,

 

[Corki]

I do know that some medications cause men erectile dysfunction. If a man were on medication that was necessary for his mental health and caused impotence could he validly marry the same as a woman who couldn’t safely become pregnant? I mean, if the woman is merely seen as delaying pregnancy until medical advancement makes it safe, than wouldn’t the man be seen as delaying consummation until medical science advanced enough to provide him with a medication that did not make him impotent?*

*yes, I know there are a few drugs that can help men with erectile dysfunction, but those drugs can interact badly with other medications, are not guaranteed to work, and can be dangerous for other health reasons,

There are two separate issues. One is that a couple marrying promised to welcome children lovingly from God. A permanent intention to avoid children is contrary to that promise. A desire to have children when and if it becomes medically prudent is not contrary to that promise.

A completely separate issue is the consummation of the marriage.

The canon law about consummation is about the ability to actually perform the act. Permanent impotence is an impediment to marriage. ED is not. Getting pregnant or not has no bearing on consummation. A woman who is advised not to get pregnant for medical reasons but who is physically capable of having sex with her husband has no impediment to marriage on those grounds.

Delaying pregnancy doesn’t have an effect on the character of the marriage. Delaying consummation does. An unconsummated valid marriage is dissoluble, a consummated one is not.

 

[thewanderer]

There are two separate issues. One is that a couple marrying promised to welcome children lovingly from God. A permanent intention to avoid children is contrary to that promise. A desire to have children when and if it becomes medically prudent is not contrary to that promise.

A completely separate issue is the consummation of the marriage.

The canon law about consummation is about the ability to actually perform the act. Permanent impotence is an impediment to marriage. ED is not. Getting pregnant or not has no bearing on consummation. A woman who is advised not to get pregnant for medical reasons but who is physically capable of having sex with her husband has no impediment to marriage on those grounds.

Delaying pregnancy doesn’t have an effect on the character of the marriage. Delaying consummation does. An unconsummated valid marriage is dissoluble, a consummated one is not.

Exactly