Medical issues with having children and contraception

[ryecroft]

From trosch.org/phi/dbl-efft.htm, on the principle of double effect:

In my opinion, taking birth control pills to “minimize your bleeding” or whatever, then rejoicing at the loophole, fails criteria (2) and (4). That is just my opinion.

I understand why you would say that - but I was taking abc since I was 13 deffinately before I was ever sexually active. Secondly, we tried NFP and it deffinately did NOT work for us no matter what we did plus I was having to get transfusions and we wound up having two pregnancies even though we stuck like glue to the rules and I got really as sick as you can get without dying - thirdly, we got a priest to attest that yest, the doctrine of “double effect” did exist in our case. Also it was not to just “minimize bleeding” - we’re not talking a little - we’re talking copious amounts for months that caused me to have to get transfusions - a little different than an occaisionally heavy menstruation.
I’m sorry that you don’t rejoice as we do in getting two birds with one stone from a complicated medical history. And your entitled to your opinion - there are some on here that will argue that double effect will never allow the use of abc - but we have fulfilled the requirements.

 

[choose_to_love]

These kinds of posts make me so sad.

Where to begin . . .

Kage ar, BioBrain, 1ke, monorail, thank you for your concise posts.

Rye, with regard to a bunch of unmarried men making the “rules”, wow, you are really not seeing this for what it is. The unmarried men in question here collectively act through the guidance of the Holy Spirit - - you know, the Lord, the Giver of Life, who created us male and female in His image. He knows all about sex because He created it, and He created us male and female so we could image and know about the Trinitarian life and love. So, given that that is where the “rules” - - I would say truth - - is coming from, you can trust them (collectively) because it is the Lord who is acting.

Second, if you have not read any of JPII’s theology of the body material, or C. West’s books like Theology of the Body for Beginners or Good News About Sex and Marriage, may I suggest them as good material? Maybe you will see some of these issues in a different way or a new light. If you see living a Christian life as following a long list of oppressive rules, perhaps you need a different perspective. Freedom is not the freedom to do what we want, but to the freedom to choose what is right, and good, and true.

Third, as regards abortifacient effects. How do you propose that an IUD works? Bio has provided you references from the manufacturers. As far as oral contraceptives/ IUDs and the thinning of the uterine lining, as far as I remember, that is a demonstrated effect of their use. Breakthrough ovulation - - i.e., ovulating even though on oral contraceptives- - is also a documented effect, with estimates varying substantially of how often that occurs, both because of the type used, how used, individual effects, etc., but I recall estimates from single digit percentages to 25% of cycles/months have breakthrough ovulation. The also demonstrated fact that oral contraceptives have a failure rate at all also supports this.

So, if there is a documentable number of breakthrough ovulations, it is also possible that fertilization - - a new life - - can occur. I think it is correct to say that we do not know how often that happens. However, we also know that the uterine lining is thinned and less capable of supporting the new life, so failure to implant can, and presumably does, occur. The problem is that there is no way of designing an experiment that could conclusively show that a new life failed to implant, both ethically (let the new life die to prove a point?!) and practically (how to measure or show what happens). Incidentally, I think the manufacturers put that info in originally to reassure users that even if method 1, stopping ovulation, and method 2, inhibiting sperm transport and motility, didn’t work, there is still a third way that is operative. Why would anyone want to risk the life of another under these circumstances?

As regards fairness, was it fair that God’s own Son came to us, and we beat, scourged, and crucified Him? Was it fair that He died for our sins?

Island, while I take your point, abstinence would not be forever, as at some point natural fertility would ebb. Speaking for myself as a husband, I would not place my orgasm over my wife’s health and certainly not over her life. I think you are speaking really to the level of culpability that would attach, as none of us really know how we would react in such a situation until we are in it.

Guys and gals, please do not think that I am thinking I have it all together - - I do not; there are so many areas of my life that if you all looked in from the outside you would say, hey, choose to love, don’t you know that this is not really the way God intended you to live? I acknowledge I am a work in progress, and I have particular challenges in dying to myself, denying myself, learning to grow in virtue and self-giving love, getting out the beam, etc. I know it is always easier to see fault in others, and I am not assigning culpability here. But I do think it is our fraternal duty to point out the objective truth as revealed by God through the Church. Christ trusted the Father. Mary trusted. We can trust in God too. Can we do it alone? No, we need the grace He gives us. I can say that when we (my bride and I) have trusted God, He has never been outdone in generosity.

 

[BiologyBrain]

there are some birth control pills that are not considered abortifacients - instead of going blindly by the physicians desk reference, you should ask a catholic gyn if your really interestd

I hazard a guess to say that the PDR is a more definitive source than any ob/gyn - since it is updated yearly and does not have biases. To blindly go by your chosen gyn is more short-sighted than to rely on product information & the PDR. I have a Catholic ob/gyn that assures me that hormonal bc by its very nature can be abortifacient. Sorry, my ob/gyn disagrees w/ yours. Mine would NEVER put a married woman who is sexually active on hormonal bc w/o telling her to abstain from marital relations. As a matter of fact, my ob/gyn doesn’t use bc at all to my knowledge. He actually **treats the cause **of the problems to ensure the health for the woman.

Obviously, I’m not going to change your mind - however, you’re not going to change mine either. Again, I’m sorry you feel that NFP didn’t work out for you. It is difficult and takes a lot of effort to abstain when you’re fertile. It also has a learning curve in which you must follow all the rules (like abstaining for at least a month to get a base-line read on your fertility). I am a firm believer that NFP can help every woman out there b/c it actually tailors itself to the woman’s body - not forcing the woman’s body to fit some ‘norm’.

I pray that you’re one of those lucky women that doesn’t have break-through ovulation. I pray that you’re one of those lucky women who’s bc doesn’t fail. I pray that the decision you have made (and continue to make) doesn’t have any un-intended side-effects. Mostly I pray that you find peace and healing.

 

[Sillara]

I thought I’d put in my (probably unwanted) two cents here.

I am one of those women with awkward fertility signs. I also live in Japan. Good luck finding an NFP teacher!

Oh, and I have five children. I nearly died twice with #2 and #3. The nurses are quite concerned about me because I my bleeding is growing worse each time. My youngest is four months old tomorrow. My next youngest isn’t quite two.

I was put on birth control prior to my marriage, too. I had health problems. I bled for six solid months. Yet, despite being Protestant at the time, I could not continue using the birth control. After I’d been married about 9 months, I gave it up. I just couldn’t do it. It seemed wrong somehow. Now, of course, I understand why.

And my husband and I are working on learning NFP as best we can, despite the fact that I have no teacher and I am breastfeeding. We’re converts to Catholicism, so we have no support from our families, either.

And we still do it. As my husband has said, “If it’s too dangerous to get pregnant, then just don’t have sex.”

After all, this life is short. Eternity is long.

 

[Seatuck]

I thought I’d put in my (probably unwanted) two cents here.

I am one of those women with awkward fertility signs. I also live in Japan. Good luck finding an NFP teacher!

Oh, and I have five children. I nearly died twice with #2 and #3. The nurses are quite concerned about me because I my bleeding is growing worse each time. My youngest is four months old tomorrow. My next youngest isn’t quite two.

I was put on birth control prior to my marriage, too. I had health problems. I bled for six solid months. Yet, despite being Protestant at the time, I could not continue using the birth control. After I’d been married about 9 months, I gave it up. I just couldn’t do it. It seemed wrong somehow. Now, of course, I understand why.

And my husband and I are working on learning NFP as best we can, despite the fact that I have no teacher and I am breastfeeding. We’re converts to Catholicism, so we have no support from our families, either.

And we still do it. As my husband has said, “If it’s too dangerous to get pregnant, then just don’t have sex.”

After all, this life is short. Eternity is long.

Thanks you for your testimony. May God Bless you .

 

[BiologyBrain]

And my husband and I are working on learning NFP as best we can, despite the fact that I have no teacher and I am breastfeeding. We’re converts to Catholicism, so we have no support from our families, either.

And we still do it. As my husband has said, “If it’s too dangerous to get pregnant, then just don’t have sex.”

After all, this life is short. Eternity is long.

Congrats & I hope everything works out for you! :extrahappy:

 

[Sillara]

Congrats & I hope everything works out for you! :extrahappy:

Thank you! We’re trying. It can get difficult at times during this learning period, but we’re doing our best. So far, so good!

 

[mtnutt]

Needless to say this is no longer something I have to worry about as we have found that the doctirine of second effect does work for us and we have a priest to back us up -so your wondering if it was in effect for birth control - in our case it deffinately is -

Ryecroft,

Based on this quote your intention seems to be to use birth control as birth control, not for the medical reason which gives you the double effect loophole you are so glad of. I am not sitting in judgement of you and neither are the other posters who are advising you against using ABC. The one who will judge is GOD and he knows your heart. He will judge you based on the intention in your heart and treat you accordingly.

God bless.

 

[Bonbar]

We just had out third last month. Beautiful girl. Grateful to God.

My wife, however, has spent the past month in the hospital. Internal bleeding, massive hemotoma, transfusions, emergency gall bladder surgery, ovarian blood clots, massive infection, and to top it all off, a pulmonary embolism leading to a collapsed lung and a brush with death…

She will now be on blood thinners for a year, and the Ob/Gyn says her uterus is kaput. The hematologist, Ob/Gyn, general surgeon, and infectious disease specialist (we’ve had a great team of doctors…) have all told us that she will DIE if she gets pregnant again and there is no way a baby could make it to term.

We have a good catholic doctor. He made it clear that this is not a case of praying and hoping for the best. To the contrary, he was very specific and adamant that my wife’s blood condition and trauma as a result of this month’s surgeries will lead to further blood clots and most likely death if she gets pregnant.

Essentially, my wife is now infertile.

That is, even if she wanted to, she could not give birth to a child. (Of course, she could conceive, but that alone does not constitute reproduction.)

The risks are so high regarding her death if she became pregnant, that I feel it would be a grave and mortal sin to put her at risk… even diligent use of NFP is not 100%, and it would be reckless to play Russian roulette with my wife’s life.

Insofar as there is no realistic possibility of my wife bearing a child, a vasectomy would have no effect on our ability to procreate. It wouldn’t be birth-control… it would be death-control.

The Catechism seems to frown upon thwarting one’s ability to procreate, either as a direct motive or indirect.

But, a vasectomy in this case doesn’t seem contrary to the Catechism as it has nothing to do with reproduction, either directly or indirectly.

To rephrase the issue far more concisely, IF one was married to a woman who had a hysterectomy (i.e. infertile), would it be immoral for the husband to get a vasectomy?

 

[Jennifer_J]

To rephrase the issue far more concisely, IF one was married to a woman who had a hysterectomy (i.e. infertile), would it be immoral for the husband to get a vasectomy?

Yes, but not for the reason you seem to think. It is morally problematic to mutilate a healthy person. A vasectomy doesn’t “cure” anything. It is purely for stopping fertility. If a vasectomy was a secondary effect of some other surgery, say prostate surgery for cancer (I have no idea, but something like that), then it would be an unintended consequence of the surgery.

You’re wife’s case is certainly severe. However, marriage is in sickness and in health and sometimes we must deal with these things. What would happen if your wife or you were permanently disabled and unable to perform sexually? Why is this different? If it were my husband’s life or if it were my life, I’d think I could find the will to not expect sex. No one is saying this wouldn’t be difficult… but a bit of perspective would help.

 

[dkoinzan]

I have health issues that make it very difficult to carry a child full term. I have buried two stillborn children. We very much wanted more children, but felt we really couldn’t handle the death of another child. We abstained for a long time because the doctor said that getting pregnant one more time, would only lead to another child dying.

I Thank God that he knows better than any doctor. Lots of prayers led us to Pope Paul VI institute and Dr. Hilgers. He began treating me for a thyroid issue. Because I was using NFP he also notice a possible infection that was undetected. He also found I didn’t produce the right amount of progesterone.

God did for us what we were to chicken to do and we conceived Isabella Rose. Don’t fool yourself NFP works, WE chose to be together on a day when I had fertile sighs. I have fertile show when I have even a slight infection. I knew I had a yeast infection and figured the fertile signs were because of the infection.

I prayed my heart out for the life of this child as did countless other people. She survived with a lot of work…lots of tests…lots and lots of shots…

I think this thread shows how very little people know about the Theology of the Body. I find the people more concerned with their orgasm than their place in eternity. How very sad. There is one thing that I have learned that gives me great comfort. Suffering can be good. The hardest thing I ever did was to bury my little Theresa and Joseph. Carrying their little caskets to their graves was unbearable. God was with me! He gave me the strength. I felt him with me in my suffering. He brought me closer to him and I would have never become that near to him if not for the suffering. I would never want to go through such suffering again, yet I miss feeling him so near.

Don’t assume a bunch of unmarried men made up some stupid rules in their free time. God made the rules and the Pope, guided by God Himself, has brought the precious Word to us so that we may get to heaven. To thumb you nose at NFP is to spit in the face of God, not some unmarried man. God calls us to be Saints! It isn’t easy and it shouldn’t be. Jesus, the Son Of God, did not make it out of here without suffering it would be pretty darn arrogant to think that I should.

 

[Bonbar]

Yes, but not for the reason you seem to think. It is morally problematic to mutilate a healthy person. A vasectomy doesn’t “cure” anything. It is purely for stopping fertility.

In the case I described, it has nothing to do with stopping infertility.
Vasectomy or not, my wife will not be able to carry a child to term.

As for as mutilation goes, a vasectomy wouldn’t be mutilation for it’s own sake. It would be to preserve the health of the wife. (It is also completely reversible unlike the numerous boob jobs, face lifts, ear rings, tummy tucks, gastric bypasses, liposuctions, circumcisions, and other procedures I see evidence of every Sunday at Mass… Are you sure you are not going out of your way to find a reason to condemn a vasectomy in this case?

What would happen if your wife or you were permanently disabled and unable to perform sexually? Why is this different?

It’s different because we are not permanently disabled and unable to perform sexually…

What’s your point?

Sex is great.
Sex is fun.
Sex is enjoyable.
And, sex has great value beyond mere procreation.
Why would a couple refrain from sex if they did not need to?

If it were my husband’s life or if it were my life, I’d think I could find the will to not expect sex. No one is saying this wouldn’t be difficult… but a bit of perspective would help.

Sex does not put my wife’s life at risk.
Pregnancy does.

 

[Em_in_FL]

Sex is great.
Sex is fun.
Sex is enjoyable.
And, sex has great value beyond mere procreation.
Why would a couple refrain from sex if they did not need to?

Sex does not put my wife’s life at risk.
Pregnancy does.

But that’s just it… Sex is supposed to be ORDERED toward LIFE… it’s DUAL in nature - for BOTH the good of the spouses AND for procreation - those cannot be separated.

From the Catechism… (this link)

2363
The spouses’ union achieves the twofold end of marriage: the good of the spouses themselves and the transmission of life. These two meanings or values of marriage cannot be separated without altering the couple’s spiritual life and compromising the goods of marriage and the future of the family.

The conjugal love of man and woman thus stands under the twofold obligation of fidelity and fecundity.

2366
Fecundity is a gift, an end of marriage, for conjugal love naturally tends to be fruitful. A child does not come from outside as something added on to the mutual love of the spouses, but springs from the very heart of that mutual giving, as its fruit and fulfillment. So the Church, which is "on the side of life,"151 teaches that "it is necessary that each and every marriage act remain ordered per se to the procreation of human life."152 "This particular doctrine, expounded on numerous occasions by the Magisterium, is based on the inseparable connection, established by God, which man on his own initiative may not break, between the unitive significance and the procreative significance which are both inherent to the marriage act."153

 

[ALLGIRLS]

Essentially, my wife is now infertile.

If she’s infertile why do you need a vasectomy?

And no form of birth control, vasectomies and tubals included, are 100% effective. Why does everyone trust pills, devices, and surgeries, but not NFP? When someone has an unplanned pregnancy w/ NFP, they scream from the rooftops how it doesn’t work. How come no one is on a campaign to discredit the pharmaceutal companies, condom manufacturers and surgeons when their products fail? I just don’t get it…

In Christ,

Ellen

 

[Bonbar]

There is no more fecundity in our marriage.

This is not the case of ‘double-effect’ or something similar.

My wife and I CANNOT HAVE CHILDREN.

There is no potential for fecundity.

For all intents and purposes, my sperm has no effect on my wife other than possibly causing death.

Would wearing a condom when you are having sex with a woman who has a hysterectomy be a sin?

Citing passages of the catechism that deal with fecundity misses the point. If the couple is infertile, wearing a condom has no moral effect. Correct?

Condoms in and of themselves are not immoral…
Likewise, vasectomies (particularly reversible vasectomies) in and of themselves are not immoral.

They are when their use thwarts, either directly or indirectly, the procreative purpose of marital sex.
Their use by a couple that cannot have children, on the other hand, neither directly nor indirectly thwarts the procreative purpose.

 

[Bonbar]

Essentially, my wife is now infertile.

If she’s infertile why do you need a vasectomy?

Just to clarify, I am dealing with a situation where my wife could CONCEIVE but could not bring the child to term… that is, within a month or two – due to the hormonal changes of a pregnancy and their effect on a serious blood condition my wife has – my wife would miscarry and my wife would most likely die. (I’ll spare you the details…)

And no form of birth control, vasectomies and tubals included, are 100% effective. Why does everyone trust pills, devices, and surgeries, but not NFP? When someone has an unplanned pregnancy w/ NFP, they scream from the rooftops how it doesn’t work. How come no one is on a campaign to discredit the pharmaceutal companies, condom manufacturers and surgeons when their products fail? I just don’t get it…

In Christ,

Ellen

You raise a good point, but realistically a vasectomy (and tubal) is many orders of magnitude more effective than any other of the methods. NFP, after all, is neither designed nor intended to eliminate the possibility of pregnancy.

 

[dkoinzan]

Just to clarify, I am dealing with a situation where my wife could CONCEIVE but could not bring the child to term… that is, within a month or two – due to the hormonal changes of a pregnancy and their effect on a serious blood condition my wife has – my wife would miscarry and my wife would most likely die. (I’ll spare you the details…)

You raise a good point, but realistically a vasectomy (and tubal) is many orders of magnitude more effective than any other of the methods. NFP, after all, is neither designed nor intended to eliminate the possibility of pregnancy.

I was told I wouldn’t bring a child alive into this world by doctors also. God must be laughing in heaven because I have a wonderful five month old. God is supposes to be in control not you.

Sex is awesome! God intended it to be, but you are misunderstanding the purpose. You are totally uneducated about the gift he has given. You really need to study your faith more.

 

[Jennifer_J]

In the case I described, it has nothing to do with stopping infertility.
Vasectomy or not, my wife will not be able to carry a child to term.

As for as mutilation goes, a vasectomy wouldn’t be mutilation for it’s own sake. It would be to preserve the health of the wife. (It is also completely reversible unlike the numerous boob jobs, face lifts, ear rings, tummy tucks, gastric bypasses, liposuctions, circumcisions, and other procedures I see evidence of every Sunday at Mass… Are you sure you are not going out of your way to find a reason to condemn a vasectomy in this case?

It’s different because we are not permanently disabled and unable to perform sexually…

What’s your point?

Sex is great.
Sex is fun.
Sex is enjoyable.
And, sex has great value beyond mere procreation.
Why would a couple refrain from sex if they did not need to?

Sex does not put my wife’s life at risk.
Pregnancy does.

I really pray that you study the Theology of the Body and read the Catechism with an open heart. You are missing the point entirely. Your wife is effectivly “disabled” because of her condition. SEX does put her at risk, because SEX makes babies as well as bonds partners. I also agree with a previous poster who wonders at the faith in a “snip” but not in NFP. What happens when you go to these great lengths and your wife still gets pregnant (it does happen)? Honestly, the safest course of action if things are as serious as you intimate, is to totally abstain until your wife is no longer fertile at all. Alternatively, you could get really good at NFP and use the most conservative rules for phase 3 and you would be as safe as any form of immoral contraception and it would be moral. NFP allows for each and every act of sex to be ordered properly–it’s licitness isn’t whether a woman or man is actively fertile, it’s keeping the act whole and integrated. The act is inherantly unitive AND procreative and you can’t intentionally separate these aspects without damaging the act that God created. btw, going without sex won’t kill you, won’t ruin your marriage, and could be quite virtuous.

 

[Bonbar]

I was told I wouldn’t bring a child alive into this world by doctors also. God must be laughing in heaven because I have a wonderful five month old. God is supposes to be in control not you.

I really don’t want to get into the complete details of our medical situation.

If it were only the risk of miscarriage, of course, there would not be an issue.

But, perhaps unlike your situation, the reason the baby would not make it to term would be because the mother would have died long before 9 months expired. There are some issues relating to her uterus and damage that was done as a result of some emergency surgery. This is coupled with a blood disorder which cause clots all over her body… these are fatal. It was a miracle she survived this time around. But, because of the surgery that went along with saving her, she will not be so lucky next time.

God is in control, of course.
But, it is reckless and sinful to expose someone to a grave risk of death (a ‘certain’ death according to the doctors).
If you had been told that you would die if you became pregnant – not miscarry, but die – I seriously doubt you would have said, “oh well! God’s in control! Let’s go roll in the hay, sweetie!”

 

[Bonbar]

I really pray that you study the Theology of the Body and read the Catechism with an open heart. You are missing the point entirely. Your wife is effectivly “disabled” because of her condition. SEX does put her at risk, because SEX makes babies as well as bonds partners. I also agree with a previous poster who wonders at the faith in a “snip” but not in NFP. What happens when you go to these great lengths and your wife still gets pregnant (it does happen)? Honestly, the safest course of action if things are as serious as you intimate, is to totally abstain until your wife is no longer fertile at all. Alternatively, you could get really good at NFP and use the most conservative rules for phase 3 and you would be as safe as any form of immoral contraception and it would be moral. NFP allows for each and every act of sex to be ordered properly–it’s licitness isn’t whether a woman or man is actively fertile, it’s keeping the act whole and integrated. The act is inherantly unitive AND procreative and you can’t intentionally separate these aspects without damaging the act that God created. btw, going without sex won’t kill you, won’t ruin your marriage, and could be quite virtuous.

Much better answer.

Thanks.

Not entirely in agreement, but it seems you recognize the issue.

Let me ask you this, though. It’s just logical loose end that I need to nail down in my mind…

Would it be immoral for a man to wear a condom if his wife had no uterus?
(Why would he want to, you ask… Why would he need to, you ask again… Just bear with me, however, and assume he has a good reason. Maybe he has poison ivy on his member. Who knows… Whatever the reason, would it be immoral to use a condom in this situation?)