Medical professionals and baptizing dying infants

[Luna_Lovecraft]

This appears to be one Diocese guidelines, does the original doc ref Canon Law?

Yes.

 

[Castello]

Yes.

Since the link won’t work would you post one reference so I can look it up! thank you.

 

[Luna_Lovecraft]

Wow. Thanks for the info Luna. That is worse than I thought. I have the right to determine what organizations, if any, my infant is associated with. What a huge violation that baptism would be.

I have to change my mind, their behinds would be in court even if they weren’t intentionally going against my beliefs and values.

You would think you have the right, but some people think differently.

Luna

 

[Luna_Lovecraft]

Since the link won’t work would you post one reference so I can look it up! thank you.

Google emergency baptism catholics. It came from the Diocese of Dallas.

Emergency baptisms are sacramental. Sacraments must be recorded with the parish.

Luna

 

[Allegra]

A layperson who confers an emergeny baptism is bound to have it recorded with the Church and to give the person or the parents a copy of a Certificate of Emergency Baptism.

From cathdal.org/files/Emergency_Baptism_Records.pdf:

*When a Catholic baptism is conferred in an emergency situation, that is, in a non-parish facility such as a hospital or jail, ceremonies may be supplied at a later date. The baptism itself is to be recorded properly in the territorial parish of the hospital, jail or other facility. If the ceremonies are supplied at a later date (cf. 1973 Rite of Baptism for Children #31.3), a notation should be made in the margin of the baptismal entry of the territorial parish indicating the date and place the ceremonies were supplied.

After the conferral of the emergency baptism, the minister of baptism completes a Certificate of Emergency Baptism and gives it to the one who is baptized or, in the case of an infant, to the parents. The one baptized or the parents of the one baptized can then present this Certificate to the pastor of the parish in which he/she is a member so that the baptism can be noted in the baptismal register of that parish. The baptism itself will be recorded in the territorial parish where the baptism occurred. The Certificate will inform the baptized’s pastor that the baptism occurred and was recorded in the territorial parish where the baptism occurred. In this way, should the one receiving baptism (or the parents) forget where the baptism is recorded, the parish in which he/she was registered or was a member can supply this information.

The minister of baptism will notify Pastoral Services of the baptism, so that Pastoral Services can inform the territorial parish in which the hospital, jail or other facility is located so that the baptism can be so registered.*

I’m glad that rule exists, but I wonder if every person who would baptise a child in such a situation even knows that. Obviously, I didn’t know that, but then I’m not commonly around people whose lives are in danger so the chances of being in such a situation myself is pretty rare. If a layperson does perform a baptism and fails to report it to the parents or to the appropriate parish, would that invalidate the baptism?

 

[Allegra]

Your coworker is wrong. Agnostic and atheist refer to two different things, and it is possible to be both. Just like one can be an agnostic theist, a gnostic theist, or a gnostic atheist. But that’s another long discussion that I would be willing to have via private messaging so as not to derail the thread. Besides, convos like that are more fun to have privately.

I do see it as cruel. Just as I would see it as cruel if an atheist prevented the baptism of a dying baby of Catholic parents. Ignoring someone’s deeply held personal beliefs and morals when they are losing a child is needlessly rubbing salt in their wounds and robbing them of their few moments of being a parent to their child.

And you are reading too much in to this. I’m not denying god out of spite (that would be remarkably stupid-to believe in god but to choose eternal suffering?) But I am saying that any deity who would punish infants for eternity because they weren’t allowed by their parents to be baptized in the few moments they were alive is not an all loving and merciful god, and certainly nothing like the one that I was brought up believing in and worshipping.

I would be happy to discuss what the differences in different kinds of atheists or agnostics are in PM. I have never known either type of person on a personal level. I do take what my coworker said with a grain of salt. I think it may be true for some people, particularly those who have suffered tremendous loss in their life or who have gone through very hard times. I would imagine that this sort of condition has a tendancy to be temporary, because as you say, it would require a great deal of self-deception to adamently deny soemthing you believe in.

Anyway, a parent whose child dies without being baptised would be sorrowful because they fear that their child was harmed spiritually because of the lack of baptism. (Of course, we do trust unbaptised infants to God’s mercy) A child that is sprinkled with water has not been harmed, at least as far as I can see. That’s why I don’t understand why all the upset. Of course, I can understand being insulted that someone doesn’t respect your religious choices, particularly in the hypothetical case where your religious convictions were well known to the rogue baptist. But then again, if I’d just lost a child, I expect it would be the furthest thing from my mind.
Insulting parents in regrettable, but one has to consider if insulting the parents is enough of a concern to disuade one from performing the baptism. I may know a teenager whose body oder is attrocious. His parents may be anti-deoderant and livid that I didn’t consider their beliefs on BO. They may just be inattentive to hygiene and be perfectly thrilled that I’m thinking of their son. I don’t know, and frankly I don’t care. I’m going to find a unembarrassing way to get the kid deoderant. If the parents don’t want him using it, they will take it away. If the parents don’t want a kid to be Christian, they won’t raise them that way. I just don’t see the problem.

 

[BlueEyedLady]

You would think you have the right, but some people think differently.

Luna

It doesn’t matter what they think. Courts have held time and time again that parents have a right to decide matters of religion for their own children. Just as you are free to practice your religion and pass it on to your children without the interference of the hospital staff, so am I.

 

[BlueEyedLady]

I can’t help but wonder if some of these posters would change their minds about the issue if a religious organization that they were morally opposed to baptized their dying child and then put his name on their registration, despite their beliefs and values.

Sorry, but everyone has a basic right to decide matters of religion for their own child and decide what groups that child will be associated with.

 

[Allegra]

I can’t help but wonder if some of these posters would change their minds about the issue if a religious organization that they were morally opposed to baptized their dying child and then put his name on their registration, despite their beliefs and values.

Sorry, but everyone has a basic right to decide matters of religion for their own child and decide what groups that child will be associated with.

I’ve already said that I wouldn’t care. (Assuming they didn’t actually do anything harmful to my baby like tattoo a wiccan symbol on him or make him put a hot coal in his mouth.) If a letter arrived today informing me that my child had been baptised in such a manner I would file it into the big blue file cabinet with the triangle on the front and not give more than, “The nerve of some people…”

 

[BlueEyedLady]

I’ve already said that I wouldn’t care. (Assuming they didn’t actually do anything harmful to my baby like tattoo a wiccan symbol on him or make him put a hot coal in his mouth.) If a letter arrived today informing me that my child had been baptised in such a manner I would file it into the big blue file cabinet with the triangle on the front and not give more than, “The nerve of some people…”

And that’s fine that you wouldn’t care much. But the fact that I and many other parents would be devastated if that happened to our children (especially as they were dying) does need to be respected. It really is very easy to avoid the pain, anger, and lawsuits by just asking first.

 

[Castello]

Google emergency baptism catholics. It came from the Diocese of Dallas.

Emergency baptisms are sacramental. Sacraments must be recorded with the parish.

Luna

The Sacrament is to be recorded at the parish.

While a Diocese may have guidlines asking that the parents be given a certificate, there is no such requirement in the Canon (eta, interesting that the parents names do not even have to be recorded in the Sacramental register if the parents are unmarried)

Can. 878 If baptism was administered neither by the parish priest nor in his presence, the minister of baptism, whoever that was, must notify the parish priest of the parish in which the baptism was administered, so that he may register the baptism in accordance with can. 877 §1.

 

[Castello]

I can’t help but wonder if some of these posters would change their minds about the issue if a religious organization that they were morally opposed to baptized their dying child and then put his name on their registration, despite their beliefs and values.

Sorry, but everyone has a basic right to decide matters of religion for their own child and decide what groups that child will be associated with.

No, because I would recognize what ceremony they did as a meaningless thing that has no bearing on my life or my child’s eternity.

For me, I know that my beliefs are true. It gives me a comfort and confidence that no matter if someone baptizes me by proxy in a Mormon ceremony or gives my child a Buddhist funeral, those things have no power. Once, when a family member was in the hospital, a co-worker who is Wiccan came to visit and said she would pray for us. I did not flip out and get offended. What matters is Christianity, for me it is the only truth. Untruth, done by a well meaning person, is an act of charity on their part that does not hurt me or my child one bit.

 

[Bezant]

It’s a balancing act and a very delicate issue. On the one hand, what we perceive to be social injustices should always be pointed out and, more than that, fought to remedy. On the other hand, some Jews have a tendency to play the “race, or religion, card” too frequently, in my view. This has led to an almost paranoid attitude toward Christians. As I stated, we should never forget the injustices of the past, but we must also learn to trust others and realize we are not always the focus of their attention. I think African Americans have a similar issue, given their history of discrimination and persecution in the United States, as do other groups of people who have a history of being targets of prejudiced attitudes.

Yes.

 

[Alice86]

I will be forever grateful for the RN (a Catholic) who baptized my dying infant because I was unable to respond, she knew I was Catholic and there was no priest available.

 

[Zekariya]

double

 

[Zekariya]

vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/__P2W.HTM

Canon 861 §2. When an ordinary minister is absent or impeded, a catechist or another person designated for this function by the local ordinary, or in a case of necessity any person with the right intention, confers baptism licitly. Pastors of souls, especially the pastor of a parish, are to be concerned that the Christian faithful are taught the correct way to baptize.

vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/__P2X.HTM

Canon 868 §2. An infant of Catholic parents or even of non-Catholic parents is baptized licitly in danger of death even against the will of the parents.

 

[sw85]

I can’t help but wonder if some of these posters would change their minds about the issue if a religious organization that they were morally opposed to baptized their dying child and then put his name on their registration, despite their beliefs and values.

Sorry, but everyone has a basic right to decide matters of religion for their own child and decide what groups that child will be associated with.

To my knowledge, there are no Christian groups who practice invalid baptisms. So if a Greek Orthodox nurse or a Methodist doctor or even a Pentecostal passerby baptised my dying infant, it’d be valid and I’d be grateful. Even if for some reason it weren’t (e.g., the baptism was not done according to the Trinitarian formula, or there was lack of valid form), I would at least appreciate the sentiment.

I’ve said it before… I cannot imagine the extremes of irrational spite that would drive someone to react with rage to a gesture of love such as baptism, even if I thought it were misguided or even false. I mean, “devastated”? Come on.

 

[Zekariya]

To my knowledge, there are no Christian groups who practice invalid baptisms. So if a Greek Orthodox nurse or a Methodist doctor or even a Pentecostal passerby baptised my dying infant, it’d be valid and I’d be grateful. Even if for some reason it weren’t (e.g., the baptism was not done according to the Trinitarian formula, or there was lack of valid form), I would at least appreciate the sentiment.

I’ve said it before… I cannot imagine the extremes of irrational spite that would drive someone to react with rage to a gesture of love such as baptism, even if I thought it were misguided or even false. I mean, “devastated”? Come on.

Mormons and Jehovah’s Witnesses preform invalid Trinitarian formula baptisms.

Some groups, such as Oneness Pentecostals, preform invalid Jesus-Name-only formula baptisms.

 

[BlueEyedLady]

To my knowledge, there are no Christian groups who practice invalid baptisms. So if a Greek Orthodox nurse or a Methodist doctor or even a Pentecostal passerby baptised my dying infant, it’d be valid and I’d be grateful. Even if for some reason it weren’t (e.g., the baptism was not done according to the Trinitarian formula, or there was lack of valid form), I would at least appreciate the sentiment.

I’ve said it before… I cannot imagine the extremes of irrational spite that would drive someone to react with rage to a gesture of love such as baptism, even if I thought it were misguided or even false. I mean, “devastated”? Come on.

What if a group that you were deeply morally opposed to baptized your child knowing that you and your spouse were against it and then put your dead child’s name in their records?

Yes, I would be filled with rage. I’m not religious, much less Catholic. For someone to toss aside my values and overtake my role as parent for the short time that my child is alive would be spiteful and irrational, not to mention cruel.

No one will decide for me if my dead infant will be forever registered with a religious group.

 

[Castello]

What if a group that you were deeply morally opposed to baptized your child knowing that you and your spouse were against it and then put your dead child’s name in their records?

Yes, I would be filled with rage. I’m not religious, much less Catholic. For someone to toss aside my values and overtake my role as parent for the short time that my child is alive would be spiteful and irrational, not to mention cruel.

No one will decide for me if my dead infant will be forever registered with a religious group.

Prayers that you will let go of the anger that seems to build in your posts. May you find peace.