Medieval Bible Christians

[solarguy17]

Synopsis - Martin Luther was a DB and I have him.

Lololololol
You clearly hate Martin Luther so much that you are ignoring well no historical facts. Including facts writing by him, the catholic church, and pretty much everyone.

The only thing I think he got wrong was that I’m pretty sure Luther was a friar, not a priest. I could be wrong though, I’m not a student of the reformation or Luther. But yeah, we’ll know. And acceptable history.

 

[Izdaari]

Lololololol
You clearly hate Martin Luther so much that you are ignoring well no historical facts. Including facts writing by him, the catholic church, and pretty much everyone.

The only thing I think he got wrong was that I’m pretty sure Luther was a friar, not a priest. I could be wrong though, I’m not a student of the reformation or Luther. But yeah, we’ll know. And acceptable history.

Yes, he was an Augustinian monk, but he already had a master’s degree when he joined. He pursued an academic career at his superior’s orders. He was ordained as a priest and taught theology at the University of Wittenberg where he also got his doctor’s degree. So, he was a friar, but also a priest and a theologian.

 

[Stilldreamn]

What if. . .wait for it. . .poor Martin thought he was choosing God, but instead was duped by Satan, and walked away from the Church (which is of God) and followed SATAN? (This is what many Catholics think happened. Had Martin repented at any point, he by now would probably be SAINT Martin Luther, revered throughout a UNIFIED CHRISTENDOM for his courageous views in seeking to reform certain wrongs done BY INDIVIDUALS in the Church, his OBEDIENCE to authority in that instead of insisting that it could only be done ‘HIS’ way, he would wait and work WITH the Church, and thus his humility and reverence to God in submitting his ‘will’. )

Suppose this is right - God intended to use Luther to spotlight and correct the abuses that had crept into the Church through corrupted individuals. And suppose that Satan, that father of lies, tried to thwart this by using Luther to split the church instead.

God used Satan’s plan to against him, in the end. The splitting of the Church had the effect of spreading the Gospel far and wide through the world (although liberally salted with errors thanks to the baggage Satan managed to send with the refugees/missionaries).

Perhaps the task of the Church now is the ingathering and healing of all the scattered descendants of the split…

 

[Eilrahc]

I’ve read this one article by fundamentalist archaeologist Jonathan Gray. He has this one theory about Joseph of Arimathea:

He and eleven sailed to Britain with documents about Jesus. A Christian community lived in Glastonbury peacefully for six centuries.
In 664, after Rome’s Saxon mercenaries invade and conquer most of Britain, the Roman Catholic Synod of Whitby orders the guardians of the Glastonbury records to surrender those “pagan non-Latin” documents for burning, and, giving up some, they continue to carefully guard the most precious of them. They stay “underground” during centuries of persecution.

Their invasions into Britain were supported, and often backed financially, from Rome. Basically, the Vatican (successor to the empire) was lending the money to build and fit out the ships for the Saxons. The deal was that once the Saxons had conquered Britain, the loans would be repaid, with interest, by the victorious Saxons.
Effectively the Vatican was using the Saxons as mercenaries to re-assert Roman control over Britain – because direct military control from Rome had been weakened, or effectively destroyed.

Once the mercenaries (Saxons) had conquered much of Britain, spiritual control (from Rome) was to be imposed on the British Isles. Religion was to be conducted according to the language and rites of Rome, and not Jerusalem.
Meanwhile, the descendants of Joseph enjoyed freedom outside Rome’s reach. It all came to a crashing halt with the Synod of Whitby. Rome had finally conquered Britain. The Synod of Whitby in 664 voted to standardize “Christianity” in Britain under Roman control – which would involve the use of Latin in the liturgy, acceptance of the papal authority of Rome, and of the Roman Catholic calendar. That Synod pretty well determined the shape of mainstream religion practiced in Britain until the Reformation.
Steps were taken to enforce acceptance of the decision. All non-Latin writings were to be destroyed. Book burnings took place, and groups holding documents from an earlier period, in Greek, Hebrew and Aramaic, were ruthlessly persecuted.

Thanks to Joseph of Arimathea, various documents from the early days were stored at Glastonbury. In line with the post-Synod of Whitby orders, most of these were burned. Book burning is something that appeals scholars – and many of the scholars and devout believers in Glastonbury were appalled at the orders to burn their books and records. They went through the motions of obeying orders, handing over some of their papers to be destroyed.
But they tried to hide and preserve some of their most valued treasures, including the scrolls Joseph of Arimathea had brought with him to Britain after Stephen’s murder in Jerusalem, over 600 years earlier. Church and civil authorities would continue hunting for the remaining documents for much of the following 1200 years or so. The Glastonbury community was raided repeatedly. Meanwhile, some of the faithful descendants of Joseph’s group (and their successors) blended into the community unrecognised, and hid the surviving scrolls.

Ever heard of such a claim?

 

[Dave_Noonan]

I’ve read this one article by fundamentalist archaeologist Jonathan Gray. He has this one theory about Joseph of Arimathea:

Ever heard of such a claim?

The part about the Synod of Whitby sounds familiar, otherwise–pretty out there. Let’s see some evidence maybe?

See also:

dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1337159/Glastonburys-2000-year-old-Holy-Thorn-Tree-hacked-vandals.html

 

[Publisher]

I think one of the difficulties with having a discussion along these lines is that Catholics confuse the Protestant concept of what exactly the Church comprises. For most Protestants, the Church is not a single heirarchal organizational structure identified with a “denomination”…and while I realize Catholics and Orthodox do not consider themselves “denominations” or “sects” of Christianity, they are not viewed that way necessarily by Protestants. If you are a religioua organization under a single umbrella of leadership OR a synod or what have you, your group is a “denomination”…not taking into account the logevity of your specific organization.

For most Protestants, the Church is made of those who have covenanted with God and share in His life, the Church meets together for corporate worship and it does not matter what the name is on the sign in front of the meetinghouse, but what matters is are those who meet together for corporate worship, sharing a common faith in Jesus of Nazareth…the Church comprises those who share in New Life in Christ in this world AS WELL as those who have gone on before us…but not everyone who sits in the pew and joins in the worshipping community is a member of The Church.

“Medieval Bible Christians” are no more members of Christ’s Church than anyone else IF they have not shared in Christs mercy and grace thru faith in His work for us. The Church is made up of the Redeemed, not made up of those who’s names are written in some church organizations baptismal records or membership rolls.

That those who lived before the Reformation were members of the Catholic or Orthodox or Coptic church groups is no guarantee they were members of Christ’s Church.

Until that distinction is understood between how Protestants view The Church and how Catholics or Orthodox view their particular organizations, there will be a whole lot of “talking past” one another. Being baptized Catholic, Orthodox, Baptist, Mennonite, Adventis makes no one a member of The Church if a New Life lived in faith proven by their good works and love of God and their neighbor. One becomes a member of The Church when they are Baptized into His Body through the work of the Holy Spirit and we share His divine nature and are New Creations in Him.

 

[andrewstx]

I’ve read this one article by fundamentalist archaeologist Jonathan Gray. He has this one theory about Joseph of Arimathea:

Ever heard of such a claim?

Yes I have heard of that claim from some Anglicans. The Glastonburry bushmyth is popularnin some Anglican circles.

 

[acarlson]

if they were trying to “reform the church” why did’t they remain catholic?

History was my minor in college, and I always loved studied the Renaissance and Reformation. From what I’ve learned from my secular, non-Catholic professors, when you become convinced as Martin Luther did that the Pope/the Papacy was the Anti-Christ, I guess it’s quite hard to see the Church lead by him as “reformable.” One thing I don’t get is how some Protestant denominations overlook this fact and somehow try to blame the split on Catholic corruption alone.

 

[1AugustSon7]

Come to think of it at that time the fantasy of veryone pouring over their bibles and nothing else to base beleiefs on would have been impossible.

During the middle ages very few could read, the printing press did not exist, and what bibles their were were extremely exspensive.

Not to mention the problem that there were hardly any copies of the Bible anything like widely available until the Printing Press, even when literacy was at its height in antiquity during the Roman Empire: literacy was common, books were not. Even when they were, they were in scroll form, which was most cumbersome for Christians who constantly needed to cross-reference between the OT prophecies and the NT; consequently, some argue, this is the reason why Christians nearly always used the codex form for our holy writings or, as we know it today, the book-form (as opposed to various scrolls).

Another problem: Christians liked to argue even in antiquity (and we didn’t let those annoying persecutions stop us from our arguing, either) and one thing we liked to argue about for centuries is what books belonged to the OT. Shrowded in mystery is what letters/writings belonged to the NT and how they came to be chosen for consistent reading by Churches, or why certain ones became so universally popular. The Corinthians, for instance, seemed insistent that two letters from Pope Clement belonged to the NT; other Churches were for a very long time suspicious of the Apocalypse of St. John.

 

[CopticChristian]

One such variation on this theme that presents a “history” can be found in the book Martyr’s Mirror, which I’m sure is available on the Internet.

I’ve also heard people say that it wasn’t that these Christians were “in hiding” necessarily, but that there were always a few true believers within the Catholic Church. These people would also probably contend that there are still a few true believers in the Catholic Church today for that matter.

Still others would locate the ancient “Bible Christians” within various of the Oriental Orthodox churches.

Dave,

Martyr’s Mirror is actually a Menonite book that is a history of Baptism through the ages. l It actually denounces some Protestants in it’s pages. There is a thread on this somewhere and this is discussed. I will look for the link.

 

[CopticChristian]

I think one of the difficulties with having a discussion along these lines is that Catholics confuse the Protestant concept of what exactly the Church comprises. For most Protestants, the Church is not a single heirarchal organizational structure identified with a “denomination”…and while I realize Catholics and Orthodox do not consider themselves “denominations” or “sects” of Christianity, they are not viewed that way necessarily by Protestants. If you are a religioua organization under a single umbrella of leadership OR a synod or what have you, your group is a “denomination”…not taking into account the logevity of your specific organization.

For most Protestants, the Church is made of those who have covenanted with God and share in His life, the Church meets together for corporate worship and it does not matter what the name is on the sign in front of the meetinghouse, but what matters is are those who meet together for corporate worship, sharing a common faith in Jesus of Nazareth…the Church comprises those who share in New Life in Christ in this world AS WELL as those who have gone on before us…but not everyone who sits in the pew and joins in the worshipping community is a member of The Church.

“Medieval Bible Christians” are no more members of Christ’s Church than anyone else IF they have not shared in Christs mercy and grace thru faith in His work for us. The Church is made up of the Redeemed, not made up of those who’s names are written in some church organizations baptismal records or membership rolls.

That those who lived before the Reformation were members of the Catholic or Orthodox or Coptic church groups is no guarantee they were members of Christ’s Church.

Until that distinction is understood between how Protestants view The Church and how Catholics or Orthodox view their particular organizations, there will be a whole lot of “talking past” one another. Being baptized Catholic, Orthodox, Baptist, Mennonite, Adventis makes no one a member of The Church if a New Life lived in faith proven by their good works and love of God and their neighbor. One becomes a member of The Church when they are Baptized into His Body through the work of the Holy Spirit and we share His divine nature and are New Creations in Him.

Publisher,

for the record…The Catholic Church is not a denomination. The word denomination has its origin long after the establishment of the Catholic Church…

Origin:
1350–1400; Middle English denominacioun < Late Latin dēnōminātiōn- (stem of dēnōminātiō ), in Latin: metonymy, equivalent to dēnōmināt ( us ) ( see denominate) + -iōn- -ion

and in consideration that Protestant groups did not come into being after the origin of the word, denomination does not apply to the Catholic Church.

 

[CopticChristian]

One such variation on this theme that presents a “history” can be found in the book Martyr’s Mirror, which I’m sure is available on the Internet.

I’ve also heard people say that it wasn’t that these Christians were “in hiding” necessarily, but that there were always a few true believers within the Catholic Church. These people would also probably contend that there are still a few true believers in the Catholic Church today for that matter.

Still others would locate the ancient “Bible Christians” within various of the Oriental Orthodox churches.

Dave,

Here is the link to Martyr’s mirror…Contarini produced another resource that was more accurate…My own position was changed as you will find as you read the thread…it is entertaing…

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=616531&highlight=martyrs+mirror

 

[Publisher]

Publisher,

for the record…The Catholic Church is not a denomination. The word denomination has its origin long after the establishment of the Catholic Church…

and in consideration that Protestant groups did not come into being after the origin of the word, denomination does not apply to the Catholic Church.

Friend, I think I stated that I understand Catholics do not believe they are a “denomination” or “sect” of Christianity, but I was not explaining the Catholic position, I was explaing that of many if not most Protestants. The Catholic, Orthodxo, Coptic…what have you that claim to be “apostolic” ARE denominations, as they are not in and of themselves the Church which comprises those redeeemed in Christ, they are an orgainization, just as Protestant groups are orgainizations, very human organizations through which the Body of Christ operates.

What ever meaning you wish to limit or extend to “denomination” is your choice to do so and the choice of your particualr ecclesial community, but in most Protestant minds and within the discussions we have on the nature of the Church, the Catholic church is a denomination in the same sense as Baptist, Nazarene, Methodist or Episcopalian in most Prtotestant minds. So any discussion on ecclesiology between our tradtions, that understanding must be takne into account, whether it is embraced by you and other Catholics or not on how you view yourselves, it is how Protestants view you…just one of many orgainizations thru which the mytical Body of Christ comprised of those whom Chirst shares New Life by grace thru faith further their work in our world.

 

[CopticChristian]

Friend, I think I stated that I understand Catholics do not believe they are a “denomination” or “sect” of Christianity, but I was not explaining the Catholic position, I was explaing that of many if not most Protestants. The Catholic, Orthodxo, Coptic…what have you that claim to be “apostolic” ARE denominations, as they are not in and of themselves the Church which comprises those redeeemed in Christ, they are an orgainization, just as Protestant groups are orgainizations, very human organizations through which the Body of Christ operates.

What ever meaning you wish to limit or extend to “denomination” is your choice to do so and the choice of your particualr ecclesial community, but in most Protestant minds and within the discussions we have on the nature of the Church, the Catholic church is a denomination in the same sense as Baptist, Nazarene, Methodist or Episcopalian in most Prtotestant minds. So any discussion on ecclesiology between our tradtions, that understanding must be takne into account, whether it is embraced by you and other Catholics or not on how you view yourselves, it is how Protestants view you…just one of many orgainizations thru which the mytical Body of Christ comprised of those whom Chirst shares New Life by grace thru faith further their work in our world.

Friend,

Then Protestants are wrong on this issue as they are wrong on other issues. They have no teaching body that satisfies “Pillar and Foundation of Truth”…if you can direct me to the Protestant Church that satisfies this passage from Timothy…let me know.

 

[Publisher]

Friend,

Then Protestants are wrong on this issue as they are wrong on other issues. They have no teaching body that satisfies “Pillar and Foundation of Truth”…if you can direct me to the Protestant Church that satisfies this passage from Timothy…let me know.

And that staement in and of itself is one of the most amazing things I have found comforting about being a Protestant in general and a Friend specifically. Even when I was attending an evangelical fellowship with my family in my youth, individuality and “working out” one’s “salvation in fear and trembling” was the hallmark of our thought. Each of us MUST make the deciions what to believe for ourselves. No one was allowed the luxury of saying "My church body teaches XYZ so I must believe that too.’

Together as a body of believers we chose to join in searching for Truth and then as a body examine our understanidng with those who have gone before us and those whose lives were exemplary in our midst. If the teachings we embraced did not inspire us to live lives dedicated to God and holiness, we knew we were on the wrong track…we “stood in the freedom we have in Christ”.

A governing teaching body that dictates to all members of our particular tradition has not been a large sticking point for us…mostly because each of us is willing to take that responsiblilty of how to frame our beliefs through scripture study, both indvidually and collectively, and understand we may be sincere in our beliefs…but be sincerly wrong…and if wrong, we were able to be secure enough, not in our beliefs and dogmas, but in the grace and mercy of God as revealed in Christ. We may indeed believe inmperfectly, but in Him is our Perfection, in Him is our Righteousness, in Him is our Trust…“For I am perusaded that He is able to keep what I have commited to Him against that day.”…HE is the Keeper of our souls.

Unless our beliefs inspire us to holy lives, lives that reflect “kindness, gentleness, patience, mercy, and compassion”, these doctrines weren’t of much use because they left us cold and alone.

I am a Friend not because I MUST embrace the “authoritive teachings” of my meeting…but because as a Friend I am able to abandon myself in the freedom I have in Christ Jesus to work out my own salvation. And where I am wrong…even sincerly wrong, on that Last Day, I will stand before a Just and Mercify Judge who knows me best and loves me most and who alone is able and worthy to Judge me…but I’ll have good company when I stand before the Judge…I’ll have His Son at my side…I’ll be able to say when I am asked to give account of myself, “I look to the cross on which the Price of Glory died, my richest gain, I count but loss and pour contempt on all my pride.” “The Cross” will be my answer, and I will place myself in His Hands…"Though He slay me, yet still will I trust Him.’

Most Protesants I know aren’t at all concerned whether they have adhered to the teachings of an “authoritve teaching magisterium”…but only that we have trusted in Him for mercy and grace as hown in Christ Jesus…that’s the only “authority” I can and will trust in…I know “He does all things well.”…How could I not rest in that astounding love, mercy and freedom?

 

[tabycat]

The part about the Synod of Whitby sounds familiar, otherwise–pretty out there. Let’s see some evidence maybe?

See also:

dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1337159/Glastonburys-2000-year-old-Holy-Thorn-Tree-hacked-vandals.html

The Synod of Whitby (c.660AD) was held to get the Celtic (mostly Irish) branch more in line with the Roman (Latin) branch of the Church. :knight1::harp::shamrock2::irish1:

 

[CopticChristian]

And that staement in and of itself is one of the most amazing things I have found comforting about being a Protestant in general and a Friend specifically. Even when I was attending an evangelical fellowship with my family in my youth, individuality and “working out” one’s “salvation in fear and trembling” was the hallmark of our thought. Each of us MUST make the deciions what to believe for ourselves. No one was allowed the luxury of saying "My church body teaches XYZ so I must believe that too.’

Together as a body of believers we chose to join in searching for Truth and then as a body examine our understanidng with those who have gone before us and those whose lives were exemplary in our midst. If the teachings we embraced did not inspire us to live lives dedicated to God and holiness, we knew we were on the wrong track…we “stood in the freedom we have in Christ”.

A governing teaching body that dictates to all members of our particular tradition has not been a large sticking point for us…mostly because each of us is willing to take that responsiblilty of how to frame our beliefs through scripture study, both indvidually and collectively, and understand we may be sincere in our beliefs…but be sincerly wrong…and if wrong, we were able to be secure enough, not in our beliefs and dogmas, but in the grace and mercy of God as revealed in Christ. We may indeed believe inmperfectly, but in Him is our Perfection, in Him is our Righteousness, in Him is our Trust…“For I am perusaded that He is able to keep what I have commited to Him against that day.”…HE is the Keeper of our souls.

Unless our beliefs inspire us to holy lives, lives that reflect “kindness, gentleness, patience, mercy, and compassion”, these doctrines weren’t of much use because they left us cold and alone.

I am a Friend not because I MUST embrace the “authoritive teachings” of my meeting…but because as a Friend I am able to abandon myself in the freedom I have in Christ Jesus to work out my own salvation. And where I am wrong…even sincerly wrong, on that Last Day, I will stand before a Just and Mercify Judge who knows me best and loves me most and who alone is able and worthy to Judge me…but I’ll have good company when I stand before the Judge…I’ll have His Son at my side…I’ll be able to say when I am asked to give account of myself, “I look to the cross on which the Price of Glory died, my richest gain, I count but loss and pour contempt on all my pride.” “The Cross” will be my answer, and I will place myself in His Hands…"Though He slay me, yet still will I trust Him.’

Most Protesants I know aren’t at all concerned whether they have adhered to the teachings of an “authoritve teaching magisterium”…but only that we have trusted in Him for mercy and grace as hown in Christ Jesus…that’s the only “authority” I can and will trust in…I know “He does all things well.”…How could I not rest in that astounding love, mercy and freedom?

Friend,

You frame your beliefs through Scripture study. Correct?

Do you, friend, believe as you study that the Scripture you study was given by God for study?

Do you, friend, believe tha the entire Scripture is the inspired word of God, infallible and inerrant as you study?

 

[Publisher]

Friend,

You frame your beliefs through Scripture study. Correct?

Do you, friend, believe as you study that the Scripture you study was given by God for study?

Do you, friend, believe tha the entire Scripture is the inspired word of God, infallible and inerrant as you study?

Friend, I read and study the scripture every day. My mornings begin around 4AM with coffee and scripture study for 30-40 mins…then I ‘enter into meeting’ for a period of time, seeking to Hear the Voice of God and seek to understand how what I’ve just read will impact my small portion of the world I live in…and I pray I will be known as “a friend of God”.

I believe the scriptures are an inspired witness of others search and understanding of God. They are not infallible because they were written by men, nor are they inerrant…as there is no single version, texual translation, manuscrpt that agrees 100% with each other…so for it to be inerrant one set of manuscripts would have to be 100% correct…but when we have different word choices, texual variants not every one of them can be inerrant…can they?

Within scriptue we can discern the Word of God, but the words themselves translated into English are not the Word…the Word of God is spoken inwardly, quietly, profoundly and calls us to service to our world. When the prophets wrote “The word of the Lord came to me saying…XYZ”, they wrote what they undestood God to be saying…I have a difficul time believeing they heard an audible voice.

They also testified that there would come a time when the word of the Lord would be spoken to each heart. Paul wrote that we have a “treasure in earthen vessels”, we have a Living God, not a God confined to a book. I believe it was Menno Simons who when confronted with scripture by the eccleiastics of his day…“We did not exchange a pope of flesh for a pope of paper.”

There is One Truth, but in this world we see “though a glass darkly”…One Day “face to face I will know…”, and until then as I taverse this mortal world I seek to discern what is the “word of the Lord” and how this Light Within, this Inner Word tell me how to live. God is not overly concerned in my estimation of telling me how many angels can dance on the head of a pin, or whether a great fish actually swallowed a man or if in fact the Earth stopped rotaiting on it’s axis for a time for Joshua to win his battle. The Word of the Lord is concerned on how I treat my neighbor, how I care for the “stranger within my gates”, if the child across the street has enough food to eat.

What brought me to the Society of Friends was not what they claimed to know about God, but what they claimed to know about how we should treat our neighbor and how scripture informs us in that respect…how do we as the People of God respond to those around us in need. We are His Body, we are His Presence in this world.

I care little of defining to the “nth degree” the meaning of “parthenagenesis”, or the subtle differenced between “penance” and “repentance” or what words must be used to make a water baptism valid, or what gestures and words make a eucharist “licit” vs “illicit”.

Authority to act in God’s name is not passed down like a keepsake. Authority to act in God’s Name lies in how well we reflect His Life, if we exhibit the “fruit of the Spirit” to those around us, if we bind up the wounded, and comfort the broken hearted, visit the captive or offer a cup of cold water in His Name to someone thirsty.

Working out one’s salvation in fear and trembling wouldn’t be so fearful or trembly if I had someone to tell me what I must do, when to kneel, when to pray, how to understand what I read…but I don’t other than the “Still Small Voice” within that calls me to view my neighbor as an opportunity to serve Him, for who knows, it just may very well be.

Theological certainty is of little comfort to me and has offered little hope to this world, in my opinion, the real changes have been when man and women of faith live His Life and share His love to those around us…I don’t find God in my meetinghouse, I find Him in the person sitting next to me at work, on the bus, in a movie theater, sleeping in a door way…I just need to figure out in “fear and trembling” what impact me ignoring the one who asks for bread or money as I walk by will have on my spiritual life…I find those times much more troubling than I do trying to decide was Jesus crucified on Passover or on the Day of Preparation.

 

[Swiss_Guy]

The Medieval Bible Christians: Monks.

 

[asd72]

Friend, I read and study the scripture every day. My mornings begin around 4AM with coffee and scripture study for 30-40 mins…then I ‘enter into meeting’ for a period of time, seeking to Hear the Voice of God and seek to understand how what I’ve just read will impact my small portion of the world I live in…and I pray I will be known as “a friend of God”.

I believe the scriptures are an inspired witness of others search and understanding of God. They are not infallible because they were written by men, nor are they inerrant…as there is no single version, texual translation, manuscrpt that agrees 100% with each other…so for it to be inerrant one set of manuscripts would have to be 100% correct…but when we have different word choices, texual variants not every one of them can be inerrant…can they?

Within scriptue we can discern the Word of God, but the words themselves translated into English are not the Word…the Word of God is spoken inwardly, quietly, profoundly and calls us to service to our world. When the prophets wrote “The word of the Lord came to me saying…XYZ”, they wrote what they undestood God to be saying…I have a difficul time believeing they heard an audible voice.

They also testified that there would come a time when the word of the Lord would be spoken to each heart. Paul wrote that we have a “treasure in earthen vessels”, we have a Living God, not a God confined to a book. I believe it was Menno Simons who when confronted with scripture by the eccleiastics of his day…“We did not exchange a pope of flesh for a pope of paper.”

There is One Truth, but in this world we see “though a glass darkly”…One Day “face to face I will know…”, and until then as I taverse this mortal world I seek to discern what is the “word of the Lord” and how this Light Within, this Inner Word tell me how to live. God is not overly concerned in my estimation of telling me how many angels can dance on the head of a pin, or whether a great fish actually swallowed a man or if in fact the Earth stopped rotaiting on it’s axis for a time for Joshua to win his battle. The Word of the Lord is concerned on how I treat my neighbor, how I care for the “stranger within my gates”, if the child across the street has enough food to eat.

What brought me to the Society of Friends was not what they claimed to know about God, but what they claimed to know about how we should treat our neighbor and how scripture informs us in that respect…how do we as the People of God respond to those around us in need. We are His Body, we are His Presence in this world.

I care little of defining to the “nth degree” the meaning of “parthenagenesis”, or the subtle differenced between “penance” and “repentance” or what words must be used to make a water baptism valid, or what gestures and words make a eucharist “licit” vs “illicit”.

Authority to act in God’s name is not passed down like a keepsake. Authority to act in God’s Name lies in how well we reflect His Life, if we exhibit the “fruit of the Spirit” to those around us, if we bind up the wounded, and comfort the broken hearted, visit the captive or offer a cup of cold water in His Name to someone thirsty.

Working out one’s salvation in fear and trembling wouldn’t be so fearful or trembly if I had someone to tell me what I must do, when to kneel, when to pray, how to understand what I read…but I don’t other than the “Still Small Voice” within that calls me to view my neighbor as an opportunity to serve Him, for who knows, it just may very well be.

Theological certainty is of little comfort to me and has offered little hope to this world, in my opinion, the real changes have been when man and women of faith live His Life and share His love to those around us…I don’t find God in my meetinghouse, I find Him in the person sitting next to me at work, on the bus, in a movie theater, sleeping in a door way…I just need to figure out in “fear and trembling” what impact me ignoring the one who asks for bread or money as I walk by will have on my spiritual life…I find those times much more troubling than I do trying to decide was Jesus crucified on Passover or on the Day of Preparation.

The Catholic Church also seeks to love God and neighbour. To love someone we must meet them where they are, but we must not affirm their sin. This is where right doctrine and theology comes in.

But it is a little off topic. You don’t believe the heretics over the years have actually been “bible Christians”. It is an anti-Catholic idea which a fringe group of fundamentalist Christians believe. I think it’s sad, they have this kind of romantic view of themselves as the remanent in the last days against the evil Catholic Church.