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Jo_Jo_G
Guest
I agree - Christian meditation is not Yoga or Eastern meditation. I would never “allow” the “Foundation for Human Understanding” to control my mind, even to achieve a relaxed state. 
- Status
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mrbean007
Guest
Some food for thought (from LETTER TO THE BISHOPS OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH ON SOME ASPECTS OF CHRISTIAN MEDITATION):
Now, for my two cents…
The error is not in using eastern-style meditation techniques themselves, which are neither sinful nor good in and of themselves, but in using them as a replacement for prayer.
Confusing the psychological peace and quiet that comes with this form of meditation for an authentic spiritual encounter with God is dangerous because we are sucked into ourselves. We stop examining our conscience; we stop searching for God, the external agent who redeems us, and instead wither and die, cut off from the vine.
But using eastern style meditation to empty your mind in order to find psychological peace, combined with a separate and proper externally-motivated prayer life, is not bad, and in fact could be very beneficial healthwise, particularly for those who have trouble with anxiety and OCD-like tendencies.
As in all things, a proper outlook that comes with a well formed conscience, dicipline and balance are all key to avoiding spiritual danger. Meditation isn’t any more dangerous than exercise, as long as one puts it in its proper place.
My two cents, anyway
In other words, they’re dealing with theological and spiritual concerns. They specifically exclude psychologically motivated practices.
Now, for my two cents…
The error is not in using eastern-style meditation techniques themselves, which are neither sinful nor good in and of themselves, but in using them as a replacement for prayer.
Confusing the psychological peace and quiet that comes with this form of meditation for an authentic spiritual encounter with God is dangerous because we are sucked into ourselves. We stop examining our conscience; we stop searching for God, the external agent who redeems us, and instead wither and die, cut off from the vine.
But using eastern style meditation to empty your mind in order to find psychological peace, combined with a separate and proper externally-motivated prayer life, is not bad, and in fact could be very beneficial healthwise, particularly for those who have trouble with anxiety and OCD-like tendencies.
As in all things, a proper outlook that comes with a well formed conscience, dicipline and balance are all key to avoiding spiritual danger. Meditation isn’t any more dangerous than exercise, as long as one puts it in its proper place.
My two cents, anyway
J
Jo_Jo_G
Guest
There are plenty of spiritually healthy ways to eliminate anxiety and OCD with cognitive therapy methods, and cognitive therapy has been shown to change the grooves in the brain caused by negative thinking and stress. The book “Brain Lock” by Schwartz comes to mind, and I believe there is another classic on cognitive therapy simply called “Feeling Good”. There is absolutely no excuse in today’s world to turn to New Age or eastern religion methods to find peace. In fact, not only are there many books written by theologians on the inherent heresies intrinsic to such things as Transcendental Meditation, which is based on Hinduism, and Buddhism or the New Age type meditations proliferated all over today, but there are now books written by* former Catholic teachers* of such types of meditation, how these form of meditation cannot be “kept in its proper place” or “kept in balance”. This is due not only to the intrinsic spiritual errors, but to the cult like aspects of the practices themselves - and the connection of “emptying ones mind” to satanism, whether this is the intention of the one practicing it or not. Modern man tends to think little of satan and his powers, satan’s connection to all false religions, and that is why so many people are drawn to cults and cult like practices, dismissing the dangers with their own “good intentions”. The dangers of yoga and such types of meditation have little to do with the “intentions” of the user. This is official Catholic teaching on the subject, not just my “two cents”.Some food for thought (from LETTER TO THE BISHOPS OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH ON SOME ASPECTS OF CHRISTIAN MEDITATION):
In other words, they’re dealing with theological and spiritual concerns. They specifically exclude psychologically motivated practices.
Now, for my two cents…
The error is not in using eastern-style meditation techniques themselves, which are neither sinful nor good in and of themselves, but in using them as a replacement for prayer.
Confusing the psychological peace and quiet that comes with this form of meditation for an authentic spiritual encounter with God is dangerous because we are sucked into ourselves. We stop examining our conscience; we stop searching for God, the external agent who redeems us, and instead wither and die, cut off from the vine.
But using eastern style meditation to empty your mind in order to find psychological peace, combined with a separate and proper externally-motivated prayer life, is not bad, and in fact could be very beneficial healthwise, particularly for those who have trouble with anxiety and OCD-like tendencies.
As in all things, a proper outlook that comes with a well formed conscience, dicipline and balance are all key to avoiding spiritual danger. Meditation isn’t any more dangerous than exercise, as long as one puts it in its proper place.
My two cents, anyway
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frobert
Guest
In answer to your last question, yes. One form, Relaxation Response developed by Herbert Benson, M.D.
“The relaxation response is a physical state of deep rest that changes the physical and emotional responses to stress… and the opposite of the fight or flight response.”
“Not thinking of anything” is not New age, it is a centuries’ old practice of quieting the mind which results in the relaxation response.
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Jo_Jo_G
Guest
Yes it is centuries old, and it also is New Age. Emptying the mind is a centuries old pagan religious practice that predates Christ, as well as New Age religious thought, which is simply based on those ancient pagan principles and religions. They are, in fact, the very same thing. Every new false religion is a resurrection or new twist on the old false religions.
This is one of the reasons real Christian meditations, like the recitation of the rosary, were seen as great cultural antidotes to those ancient pagan rituals, concentrating for example, on the mysteries of Christ’s life, rather than the pagan emptiness that “quieted the mind” and allowed satan to enter and influence. Quieting the mind is an attempt to find enlightenment and peace from the self, ( think of the old pagan gnosticism) which is self deception and delusion, whereas the true Christian turns to the Holy Spirit (*not *in a charismatic way, which is another deception) to make him/herself fully conscious, and aware of truth and reality, i.e., fully sane. That is why cognitive therapy is not only mentally, but spiritually healthy. It is mental exercise that trains the brain to focus on reality, rather than the habitual, unrealistically negative thought patterns that cause unnecessary stress in our lives. As well, the rosary trains the brain to focus on the reality of truth and God’s existence, rather than turning our minds into a vacant black hole to “enlighten” ourselves and “find peace.”
Luke 11:25 points to this danger of emptying the mind:
“When the unclean spirit goes out of a man, it passes through waterless places seeking rest, and not finding any, it says, ‘I will return to my house from which I came.’ 25"And when it comes, it finds it swept and put in order. 26"Then it goes and takes along seven other spirits more evil than itself, and they go in and live there; and the last state of that man becomes worse than the first.”
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frobert
Guest
Cognitive therapy is great for people who are suffering from an emotional or psychological disorder like depression or anxiety, it may help people with stress but for mild to moderate stress the relaxation response is much quicker and much less expensive.
People with strong religious convictions often conjure up religious symbolism with the relaxation response or when quieting their mind. On the positive side it a sense of oneness with the universe which can be explained neurobiologically. It is the same result that Buddhist monks achieve during meditation and devout Catholic nuns receive during prayer. There is some evidence that is has to do with the parietal lobes of the brain which mediate the boundaries of self.
Andrew Newberg, a neuroscientist at the University of Pennsylvania, has been scanning the brains of religious people for more than a decade. He has found that people who meditate, from Franciscan nuns to Tibetan Buddhists, go dark in the parietal lobe — the area of the brain that is related to sensory information and helps us form our sense of self.
In regard to demons, our brain and psyche can conjure up internal angels or demons all on its own without external preternatural assistance.
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Bookcat
Guest
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Jo_Jo_G
Guest
I am not talking about the “relaxation response” if by that you mean, simply slowly relaxing your muscles and letting go of stressful thoughts. Once again, let me reiterate, the danger comes in with then emptying of the mind to a nothing state, and letting that area of the brain empty, not filling it with God (as the Catholic nuns do, but the Buddhist monks don’t) to form our sense of self without conscious thought. Mental health is not something that can be determined from a brain scan. In other words - though the nuns and the Buddhist may have similar looking brains, sanity is only determined by how in touch one is with reality, not by looking at the brain. Also, I did not say that the relaxation response and emptying one’s mind doesn’t “work” to relax, at least in a superficial, temporary sense. That is not the point. The point is that to find true peace, and truly be at peace with oneself, whether one is mildly stressful or has a major mental disorder, one has to come to terms with reality and* those things that *contradict and unsettle the core of our very being, whatever they may be in the individual. Reality is we *are not one with the universe * despite what pop culture has convinced you is science. Frankly, that idea, that I am part you, and you are part me, is delusional in itself, total nonsense, and goes against the scientific law of noncontradiction, but is a reoccurring theme in false religions. The truth is, the atoms that make up my physical body belong to God alone, and when connected to my living body they are given to my soul to steward and take care of, not your soul, or anyone else’s. The truth, as they say, will always set you free. And sure it hurts at first, but it actually frees you, and gives you the power to do what you actually need to do, because you will no longer be clouded with a misleading belief. It means you aren’t spending your energy on all of the wrong things anymore, like dangerous forms of meditation. It means the confusion is lifted, and you know exactly what you need to be doing, why, and how to do it too. The truth also, can act as a guideline, in showing you what you need to do, but more importantly, how you need to do it.
I will give you two examples. Say you feel mild stress in your life and you don’t know why, so you try the relaxation technique, the emptying of your mind kind, and it results in some form of relief, so you do it again and again without really finding out why you felt stress stress in the first place. What if the stress you were feeling was based on some sin you felt guilty of committing? Satan has just successfully deluded you from examining your life in the hard cold truth of reality and fixing it, to reach true peace. Or say the stress in your life is based not on your sins, but on other people’s sins, someone repeatedly telling you are a bad person, and you are guilty of nothing, but now have engrained self doubting mental habits that you need to repair with cognitive therapy. Satan has just deluded you from realizing the truth of how much God loves you, you love Him, and therefore how much confidence and joy you should, and can have. Being on the side of truth, being unafraid to examine ourselves no matter how much it hurts, rather than running from that to a self-induced, semi unconscious state, brings a peace and joy which can carry you through any difficult situation.
Most people can benefit from cognitive therapy. You are in error about it being just for the mentally ill. It is not expensive. I think the book I used cost eight bucks. You don’t need a therapist or counselor to learn it.
And just because people can conjure up demons on their own (agreed) does not mean satan doesn’t exist. The people recovering from the types of cult like meditative “therapies” you evoke (like Buddhism) can attest to that.
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Jo_Jo_G
Guest
Thanks, this is excellent!
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frobert
Guest
The relaxation response is a documented response that one gets regardless of the meditation whether its Catholic nuns or Buddhist monks or lay people. I would warn Catholics, who believe your claims, against using any form of meditation other than prayer because our psyches are suggestible. If I believe that “emptying the mind” meditation opens me to a demon then I may likely awaken a demon from my unconscious mind without any preternatural assistance. It is the same reason why I believe that the current church demon drumming along with its new found respect for exorcisms will not end well.
If you have any evidence, not antidotes, that “emptying the mind” leads to inviting demons in, please share. I would welcome anything that I could explore and examine that challenges what I have learned from my education, professional training and experience.
I have much respect for cognitive therapy but there are simpler less expensive ways than therapy to treat mild to moderate stress. Of course if they don’t work in a reasonable time frame then a formal therapy is indicated.
Re: guilt and sin. The very first thing to do is your spiritual adviser.
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Jo_Jo_G
Guest
Like I said, the relaxation response* is *just a response, and by that you have no way of determining whether or not it is spiritually, or mentally, beneficial in the long term. You have willfully handed yourself over to a less than conscious state. But it is not a cure for stress, rather, it is like taking Tylenol to “cure” a cold, or worse, a more dangerous illness. It is not mental exercise at all, like cognitive therapy, in fact is not “therapy”, strictly speaking. Think about it, you are *paying * a “counselor” to read to you guided imagery, something you can learn from a book or the internet, while I bought a book (at the advice of a psychiatrist friend) and simply taught myself cognitive therapy for 8.99. The difference is you are paying someone to read to your mind, whereas I am willing to *exercise *my *own *brain. Someone *counseling you to relax *told you cognitive therapy is more expensive? Or worse, since you say you are “professionally educated”, you are getting paid to teach others New Age relaxation techniques? And who’s getting ripped off? I know that in some cult like evangelical churches they have “counselors” who get paid to do this sort of thing, but frankly, evangelicals are not known for their smarts. Also, demonic influence cannot be “evidenced” by me, or anyone really, as it is spiritual in nature. Demonic influence is not something that happens to people because they “fear” it can happen in their subconscous, that is called imagination. Rather, it is something that happens because they purposely rid their mind of conscious thought and will power, while conscious, opening their mind inappropriately. If you do not believe in the demonic, then you have no business being Catholic, as even the early Church fathers have written extensively on satan’s attempts to influence the soul during physical weakness in mind, body, or vulnerability, as in a state of hypnosis. He comes from without, not from within our beings. Christ Himself exercised demons before curing physical ailments, and that does not mean that all mental illnesses are caused by demons, or those who suffer from them demonically influenced. The quote from the bible speaking of the dangers of an empty mind (“sweeping the house”) was not an “antidote” as you say; in fact it was Holy Scripture, not an anecdote at all. Authentic exorcisms (not to be confused with Hollywood’s version of them) have always been the domain of the church, and that will never change. I was just talking about this with one of the leading retired psychiatrists in the DC area, who knew an actual exorcist, the very real powers of satan, and the very real power of holy priests. For you to deny a spiritual nature, and spiritual influence to the human mind, is a biased, purely Freudian form of psychology, and then a contradiction when you claim a spiritual “oneness” with the “universe” and each other.
Here is a good link for you, with a lot of “evidence” of the danger inherent in this false psychology:
catholiceducation.org/en/religion-and-philosophy/apologetics/the-danger-of-centering-prayer.html
I am also giving you this link fortrefuge.com/Ritual-Abuse-Common-Programs.html if you doubt the use of psychology by the satanic or the occult. Emptying the mind, centering, and hypnosis are not a far cry from the practices taught to the victims of satanic cults to disassociate.
As well, Today’s Destructive Cults and Movements, by Rev. Lawrence Gesy, forward by Mother Teresa, is a good read. I have met and spoken with Father Gesy at length.
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frobert
Guest
Then you agree that there is nothing demonic with eliciting the relaxation response through meditation.
That is a Catholic belief. Non-Catholics have their own beliefs.
BTW, I am Christian but I am not Catholic.
Common Programs Observed in Survivors of Satanic Ritualistic Abuse is a blog article about the services their counseling center provides. It has no information about the psychotherapists except their names and their degrees and some other general information. They may be good therapists and counselors there but there is no way to determine from their blog.
Neither one of the links have any documented evidence that meditation, any type of meditation is demonic or will lead to preternatural interference.
I don’t care if Catholics believe that certain types of meditations are not for them but to tell others they are demonic without documented proof is wrong and may elicit the very demons through the power of suggestion that you want to avoid. In the end drumming the demon beat may damage the credibility and trust in the hierarchy of the church.
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Jo_Jo_G
Guest
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frobert
Guest
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Jo_Jo_G
Guest
"I am not demanding documentation for demons but I would welcome documented evidence to challenge my knowledge from my education, professional training and experience. You are presenting the church’s beliefs which I already I am aware of and don’t have any objections to. I presented alternate theories on how meditation works neurobiologically and within our own psyches through the power of suggestion. I believe it is wrong for the church to drum the demon beat without talking about alternative explanations if for no other reason than to show how their belief in demons is superior. I have some theories along the lines, that it is as much a political decision as a religious decision, of why this may be but they need further investigation on my part. The basis is that a large part of the laity are energized when the church takes a strong orthodox stance and doubles down against opposition such as it is presently doing on demons. The problem for the church, besides the potential for harm, is it puts in doubt the credibility and trust in the hierarchy. I have no reason to see this happen but the hierarchy has been misguided numerous times in the past and I believe they are misguided on this topic.
See: The Power of Suggestion: What We Expect Influences Our Behavior, for Better or Worse"
So, let me get this straight, you are now asking for me to provide documentation saying the power of suggestion doesn’t work? Why would I do that? I didn’t say the power of suggestion doesn’t work. I said the power of suggestion, simply by being afraid you’ll conjure up a demon, can’t conjure up a demon. It can conjure up a demon in your own imagination, possibly even delusions if you are mentally unstable, and particularly so, I would think, if one engages in the mental experiments you promote that decrease your self control. You are confusing psychology with spirituality here, and it is you who have no evidence that these “fear” inspired demons are actual, real demons. On the other hand, the type of demonic influence that I believe is instrinsic to these New Age practices of meditation is one of a more subtler variety. At the bottom of this post I’ll include a link where well intended Christians used these meditation techniques, with no fear of the demonic, only to find out the objective reality of how they worked much different.
Also you make the ridiculous subjective accusation and assumption that the church is motivated “to prove their belief in demons is superior.” This casts doubt on your own credibility, because the church’s stand on demons is simply the same it has always been since the time of Christ, when the Church was instituted. This is not debatable. Historical records prove this. The Church has no authority to change what Christ taught to adapt to pop psychology masquerading as science. If people reject the Church because of this, they reject the Church, so what? Christ was rejected by the world as well.
“Across many studies, research has shown that deliberate suggestion can influence how people perform on learning and memory tasks, which products they prefer, and how they respond to supplements and medicines, which accounts for the well-known placebo effect.”
Agreed.
“BTW, new age is not a protestant phenomena.”
I didn’t say it was. I said many cult like evangelical churches retain New Age and self esteem counselors. This is known even to anti-Catholics:
On the contrary, if anything, the liberals in the hierarchy are not drumming it loud enough:
newoxfordreview.org/dossier.jsp?did=dossier-new-age
“New age was a misguided crock which is on its last leg if it is not already completely in grave.”
New Age isn’t new. And neither are your visualization and emptying meditation techniques. They are not in the grave, and they are one and the same thing, and they are as old as the serpent himself, related to the occult and gnosticism. The occult has always walked hand in hand with psychology, to influence its victims; whereas the Church has always walked hand in hand with science, reason and truth:
letusreason.org/current86.htm
See: The Power of Suggestion: What We Expect Influences Our Behavior, for Better or Worse"
So, let me get this straight, you are now asking for me to provide documentation saying the power of suggestion doesn’t work? Why would I do that? I didn’t say the power of suggestion doesn’t work. I said the power of suggestion, simply by being afraid you’ll conjure up a demon, can’t conjure up a demon. It can conjure up a demon in your own imagination, possibly even delusions if you are mentally unstable, and particularly so, I would think, if one engages in the mental experiments you promote that decrease your self control. You are confusing psychology with spirituality here, and it is you who have no evidence that these “fear” inspired demons are actual, real demons. On the other hand, the type of demonic influence that I believe is instrinsic to these New Age practices of meditation is one of a more subtler variety. At the bottom of this post I’ll include a link where well intended Christians used these meditation techniques, with no fear of the demonic, only to find out the objective reality of how they worked much different.
Also you make the ridiculous subjective accusation and assumption that the church is motivated “to prove their belief in demons is superior.” This casts doubt on your own credibility, because the church’s stand on demons is simply the same it has always been since the time of Christ, when the Church was instituted. This is not debatable. Historical records prove this. The Church has no authority to change what Christ taught to adapt to pop psychology masquerading as science. If people reject the Church because of this, they reject the Church, so what? Christ was rejected by the world as well.
“Across many studies, research has shown that deliberate suggestion can influence how people perform on learning and memory tasks, which products they prefer, and how they respond to supplements and medicines, which accounts for the well-known placebo effect.”
Agreed.
“BTW, new age is not a protestant phenomena.”
I didn’t say it was. I said many cult like evangelical churches retain New Age and self esteem counselors. This is known even to anti-Catholics:
- If one wants to know what EFCA stands for, one only need look at the teachings of Charles Swindoll. Swindoll was the senior pastor of First Evangelical Free Church of Fullerton, California for 23 years (before resigning in 1994 to take the post of president of Dallas Theological Seminary), and thus is perhaps the best known E-Free pastor/spokesperson. Swindoll’s “résumé of heresy” is seemingly endless. To briefly summarize, he recommends the books of many of the worst psychologizers, New Agers, and occultists imaginable, all under the banner of “All Truth is God’s Truth”; he teaches a psychological self-love/self-esteem gospel that is virtually indistinguishable from that of the atheistic psychologists, in effect, denying the doctrines of grace and redemption; he openly supports ecumenical cooperation with Catholics and charismatics, all under the guise of “grace” and non-judgmental “acceptance”; he endorses the occultic practices of visualization and inner healing/victimization therapy; and he teaches that believers can be demon possessed. use, ritual-abuse
rapidnet.com/~jbeard/bd psychology, self-love/self-esteem, codependency/recovery, demonization of believers, signs & wonders charismania, the non-material resurrection of the believer,m/Psychology/efca.htm
Evangelical Free Church of America (EFCA)
On the contrary, if anything, the liberals in the hierarchy are not drumming it loud enough:
newoxfordreview.org/dossier.jsp?did=dossier-new-age
“New age was a misguided crock which is on its last leg if it is not already completely in grave.”
New Age isn’t new. And neither are your visualization and emptying meditation techniques. They are not in the grave, and they are one and the same thing, and they are as old as the serpent himself, related to the occult and gnosticism. The occult has always walked hand in hand with psychology, to influence its victims; whereas the Church has always walked hand in hand with science, reason and truth:
letusreason.org/current86.htm
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frobert
Guest
Prease read what I wrote.
Perhaps I was unclear about why I choose the term secular term “relaxation response” of what happens during meditation. The relaxation response is elicited in Catholic nun meditation and Buddhist monk meditation as evidenced in actual brain scans during meditation. Regardless what you call it you will likely find it in all legit forms of meditation.
I am questioning why some believe that Buddhist monk meditation–emptying the mind" leads dangerous when brain scans show it is neurobiologically identical to Catholic nun meditation.
Again if someone believes that a type of meditation is dangerous they should avoid it. It is they who are playing with danger not because of demons but because of how suggestion works on our psyche. I don’t care one bit that you or Catholics or anyone else chooses not to practice a type of meditation, my point is that until there is scientific evidence for an assertion of dangerousness it is misguided to say more than it is our belief.
No. The link was for your information about what the church is not considering when drumming the demon beat.
I gave you my opinion of New Age. Why would you think I would change my opinion based on conservative, liberal or religion belief? I provided a link to a blog by John Micheal Greer who does a much better job at dismissing New Age than I could do. New age idealization is dangerous for the same reasons I stated above about other religious, they do not consider scientific evidence or the power of suggestion relevant.
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Jo_Jo_G
Guest
You wrote:
"Perhaps I was unclear about why I choose the term secular term “relaxation response” of what happens during meditation. The relaxation response is elicited in Catholic nun meditation and Buddhist monk meditation as evidenced in actual brain scans during meditation. Regardless what you call it you will likely find it in all legit forms of meditation.
I am questioning why some believe that Buddhist monk meditation–emptying the mind" leads dangerous when brain scans show it is neurobiologically identical to Catholic nun meditation.
Again if someone believes that a type of meditation is dangerous they should avoid it. It is they who are playing with danger not because of demons but because of how suggestion works on our psyche. I don’t care one bit that you or Catholics or anyone else chooses not to practice a type of meditation, my point is that until there is scientific evidence for an assertion of dangerousness it is misguided to say more than it is our belief."
Honestly at this point I don’t know what to say, if you think just because a neurobiological response in the brain is the same in two people - a Catholic nun and a Buddhist monk - it has anything to do with, or can prove, whether or not Satan enters our subconscious during meditation. You don’t know how to separate psychology (in which little, if anything, is actually observable in the brain - one cannot “see” thoughts, and whether or not they are good or bad ) from spirituality. Neurobiology has nothing to do with whether or not one is influenced by satan. If you expect me to provide* neurobiological
"The link was for your information about what the church is not considering when drumming the demon beat. "
The Church has always considered the power of suggestion for false signs and wonders, calling in scientists to examine phenomena very careful before declaring anything supernatural or anyone a saint. For example, the Church has held that even a stigmata (wounds in the hand resembling Christ’s) can be auto suggested. You simply don’t know anything about what Catholicism is all about, or how it works hand in hand with science, not at odds with it. Your accusations are ridiculous, and you should do your homework first, about the history of the spiritual dangers emptying the mind way back to gnosticism, before you accuse the Church of having any motives other than preserving the faith as handed down to it from Christ and the apostles. The power of suggestion, and auto suggestion, and mental illness, and a multitude of subjective psychological variables, are the reasons apparitions are not part of what Catholics consider necessary for the faith, even those approved by the Church. Unless auto suggestion and delusions can be completely ruled out by independent scientists. apparitions are not approved anyway, and considered a danger to the faith.
You say we are “playing with danger”. And how are Catholics playing with danger when we avoid putting our minds in a semi hypnotic state? Are you saying if we avoid this state the demons are going to come after us? Or, are you saying by Catholics believing this eastern religious practice is dangerous, we will “suggest into the mind” demonic delusions in those who don’t think it is dangerous? Or are you saying, if people don’t think it’s dangerous, they might worry that it is, and the demons are gonna get them? Come on, your argument doesn’t even make sense.
You said:
"I gave you my opinion of New Age. Why would you think I would change my opinion based on conservative, liberal or religion belief? I provided a link to a blog by John Micheal Greer who does a much better job at dismissing New Age than I could do. New age idealization is dangerous for the same reasons I stated above about other religious, they do not consider scientific evidence or the power of suggestion relevant. "
Yes, you just gave your opinion on New Age. Is your John Micheal Greer the same man all over the internet promoting witchcraft “prayer beads” saying they are just the “equivalent” to the Catholic rosary? Yet amazingly, you still have not responded to anything I posted proving the link between your meditative practices of emptying the mind and the New Age movement, even though Eastern Religions, gnosticisms and the old paganisms are filled with this occult practice of emptying the mind to achieve a higher sense of self. You simply refuse to consider the evidence that I submitted relevant. This is historical evidence, not a conservative, liberal or religious bias. It is your emptying of the mind that has absolutely nothing to do with science, but historically, occult religous practice. You cannot deny that historical reality. That you want to call it psychology, i.e., pop psychology, go ahead, but keep in mind the occult has always used psychological means to influence people. The old pagans were wrong; but it is a modernist bias to believe they were stupid.
"Perhaps I was unclear about why I choose the term secular term “relaxation response” of what happens during meditation. The relaxation response is elicited in Catholic nun meditation and Buddhist monk meditation as evidenced in actual brain scans during meditation. Regardless what you call it you will likely find it in all legit forms of meditation.
I am questioning why some believe that Buddhist monk meditation–emptying the mind" leads dangerous when brain scans show it is neurobiologically identical to Catholic nun meditation.
Again if someone believes that a type of meditation is dangerous they should avoid it. It is they who are playing with danger not because of demons but because of how suggestion works on our psyche. I don’t care one bit that you or Catholics or anyone else chooses not to practice a type of meditation, my point is that until there is scientific evidence for an assertion of dangerousness it is misguided to say more than it is our belief."
Honestly at this point I don’t know what to say, if you think just because a neurobiological response in the brain is the same in two people - a Catholic nun and a Buddhist monk - it has anything to do with, or can prove, whether or not Satan enters our subconscious during meditation. You don’t know how to separate psychology (in which little, if anything, is actually observable in the brain - one cannot “see” thoughts, and whether or not they are good or bad ) from spirituality. Neurobiology has nothing to do with whether or not one is influenced by satan. If you expect me to provide* neurobiological
- evidence for satan’s presence in eastern religion’s forms of meditation, than I expect you to provide neurobiological evidence for his lack of presence. Neurobiology just doesn’t apply. It has to do with the relaxation response only, and nothing else.
"The link was for your information about what the church is not considering when drumming the demon beat. "
The Church has always considered the power of suggestion for false signs and wonders, calling in scientists to examine phenomena very careful before declaring anything supernatural or anyone a saint. For example, the Church has held that even a stigmata (wounds in the hand resembling Christ’s) can be auto suggested. You simply don’t know anything about what Catholicism is all about, or how it works hand in hand with science, not at odds with it. Your accusations are ridiculous, and you should do your homework first, about the history of the spiritual dangers emptying the mind way back to gnosticism, before you accuse the Church of having any motives other than preserving the faith as handed down to it from Christ and the apostles. The power of suggestion, and auto suggestion, and mental illness, and a multitude of subjective psychological variables, are the reasons apparitions are not part of what Catholics consider necessary for the faith, even those approved by the Church. Unless auto suggestion and delusions can be completely ruled out by independent scientists. apparitions are not approved anyway, and considered a danger to the faith.
You say we are “playing with danger”. And how are Catholics playing with danger when we avoid putting our minds in a semi hypnotic state? Are you saying if we avoid this state the demons are going to come after us? Or, are you saying by Catholics believing this eastern religious practice is dangerous, we will “suggest into the mind” demonic delusions in those who don’t think it is dangerous? Or are you saying, if people don’t think it’s dangerous, they might worry that it is, and the demons are gonna get them? Come on, your argument doesn’t even make sense.
You said:
"I gave you my opinion of New Age. Why would you think I would change my opinion based on conservative, liberal or religion belief? I provided a link to a blog by John Micheal Greer who does a much better job at dismissing New Age than I could do. New age idealization is dangerous for the same reasons I stated above about other religious, they do not consider scientific evidence or the power of suggestion relevant. "
Yes, you just gave your opinion on New Age. Is your John Micheal Greer the same man all over the internet promoting witchcraft “prayer beads” saying they are just the “equivalent” to the Catholic rosary? Yet amazingly, you still have not responded to anything I posted proving the link between your meditative practices of emptying the mind and the New Age movement, even though Eastern Religions, gnosticisms and the old paganisms are filled with this occult practice of emptying the mind to achieve a higher sense of self. You simply refuse to consider the evidence that I submitted relevant. This is historical evidence, not a conservative, liberal or religious bias. It is your emptying of the mind that has absolutely nothing to do with science, but historically, occult religous practice. You cannot deny that historical reality. That you want to call it psychology, i.e., pop psychology, go ahead, but keep in mind the occult has always used psychological means to influence people. The old pagans were wrong; but it is a modernist bias to believe they were stupid.
J
Jo_Jo_G
Guest
Like a true materialist, you question “why some believe that Buddhist monk meditation–emptying the mind” leads dangerous when brain scans show it is neurobiologically identical to Catholic nun meditation."
Further information on the differences between material, neurobiological effects, and spiritual beings and spiritual effects:
The non-material can basically fall into two categories: 1) non-material things; and 2) non-material beings. Non-material things would be, for example, something like an idea. Do ideas have physical boundaries - height, weight, depth, etc.? No. Can you see an idea? You can see the fruit of an idea - an invention, a poem, etc. - but can you see the idea itself? No. Now, a materialist would say that an idea is merely an electrical impulse firing through the neurons of your brain. Maybe so, but what about concepts such as freedom, love, rights, hope, truth, and so on? Are these merely electrical impulses traveling through the mind - well, no such thing as a “mind” in a materialist-only universe - traveling through the brain? Is freedom not an objective reality? Would a materialist who was locked in a jail cell, and who demanded to be set free, be satisfied with the jailer’s response of, “Freedom is all in your head, there’s no such thing!”?
Still, though, the materialist might say, “Yep, all those things are simply in one’s brain as electrical impulses.” Which would mean that they essentially have no argument for the existence of such a thing as human “rights”. Rights are non-material. If they only exist as impulses in a person’s brain, if they are not objective realities in and of themselves, then no one has any rights. There is no right to life. To happiness. To freedom of speech. To freedom of religion. To freedom…of any kind, period. Pretty grim world we would be living in.
But, what about truth? Here is where the materialist has all sorts of problems that they just can’t claim can be solved by an appeal to electrical impulses firing through neurons in the brain. What is the material universe governed by? Non-material laws of physics. These laws are true. The law of gravity is true. The laws of thermodynamics are true. The laws of chemistry are true. The laws of mathematics are true. Has anyone ever seen gravity? Does gravity have height, weight, length, width, or depth? What about time? Is time real? Is it material? What about truth? Does it have spatial dimensions? Is it a material item? What about the mathematical concept of pi? You can’t slice it because it isn’t material. But it’s true! It exists!
So, I contend the existence of non-material things - concepts, laws, truth, and such - that every single human being is aware of and affected by, whether they will admit that they objectively exist or not.
Further information on the differences between material, neurobiological effects, and spiritual beings and spiritual effects:
The non-material can basically fall into two categories: 1) non-material things; and 2) non-material beings. Non-material things would be, for example, something like an idea. Do ideas have physical boundaries - height, weight, depth, etc.? No. Can you see an idea? You can see the fruit of an idea - an invention, a poem, etc. - but can you see the idea itself? No. Now, a materialist would say that an idea is merely an electrical impulse firing through the neurons of your brain. Maybe so, but what about concepts such as freedom, love, rights, hope, truth, and so on? Are these merely electrical impulses traveling through the mind - well, no such thing as a “mind” in a materialist-only universe - traveling through the brain? Is freedom not an objective reality? Would a materialist who was locked in a jail cell, and who demanded to be set free, be satisfied with the jailer’s response of, “Freedom is all in your head, there’s no such thing!”?
Still, though, the materialist might say, “Yep, all those things are simply in one’s brain as electrical impulses.” Which would mean that they essentially have no argument for the existence of such a thing as human “rights”. Rights are non-material. If they only exist as impulses in a person’s brain, if they are not objective realities in and of themselves, then no one has any rights. There is no right to life. To happiness. To freedom of speech. To freedom of religion. To freedom…of any kind, period. Pretty grim world we would be living in.
But, what about truth? Here is where the materialist has all sorts of problems that they just can’t claim can be solved by an appeal to electrical impulses firing through neurons in the brain. What is the material universe governed by? Non-material laws of physics. These laws are true. The law of gravity is true. The laws of thermodynamics are true. The laws of chemistry are true. The laws of mathematics are true. Has anyone ever seen gravity? Does gravity have height, weight, length, width, or depth? What about time? Is time real? Is it material? What about truth? Does it have spatial dimensions? Is it a material item? What about the mathematical concept of pi? You can’t slice it because it isn’t material. But it’s true! It exists!
So, I contend the existence of non-material things - concepts, laws, truth, and such - that every single human being is aware of and affected by, whether they will admit that they objectively exist or not.
- Status