Medjugorje - A True Confession

[setter]

setter

,
The points are that the Ordinary of Mostar, responsible for the discernment of apparitions in his diocese, spoke with the authority of his office in declaring that the Church does not believe that Mary appears or has appeared in Medjugorje; further, he instructed priests in his diocese that they may not proclaim the apparitions from the pulpit as though they were authentic. In the second place, the (then) Yugoslavian Bishops Conference, when so authorized, had the reponsibility to form its own investigative commission, with the result that its own declaration coincided with that of Bishop Zanic: that it cannot be affirmed that the apparitions are of supernatural origin. Thirdly, Bishop Brincard was authorized by the French Bishops Conference to formulate an official, authoritative response to the Medjugorje question on behalf of the Church in France, which response is a validation of the actions taken by the Church in Mostar and the Church in (then) Yugoslavia. Officially, the Church does not believe in Medjugorje…

I used the term responsible to denote competence: the competent authority is the one with responsibility. I’m sorry if that confused anyone here; I’m not always precise…The Ordinary is the competent authority in his diocese, and he is responsible for decisions in his diocese. This does mean that Bishop Peric today is a responsible voice regarding alleged apparitions in the Diocese of Mostar; Archbishop Franic or Cardinal Mahony or the St. Louis Cardinals simply do not have any responsibilities with regard to authenticating events in Medjugorje.
Thank you for the clarification.

Your suggestion that "those many Church authorities who do not support your contention…must…be…irresponsible"

is an interesting one; but they certainly are not competent authorities where Medjugorje is concerned. In fact, no one responsible Church authority has ever claimed that Medjugorje is authentic.
Note my clarification: “…who do not support your contention…”, which I have been attempting to objectively point out exceed the official and competent declaration by proper Church authorities: “that it cannot be affirmed that the apparitions are of supernatural origin.” Note: No official word of condemnation, just that the faithful cannot treat this alleged apparitions as authentic supernatural spiritual phenomenon. BTW – What about this about this simple and clear distinction do not the con-Mej folks not get?

I recommend source documents for facts

; I recommend magazine articles and promotional web sites for spin…
Fair enough and I agree. I did offer this article as more or less a balanced summary of the Medjugorje events and what is permitted and what is not permitted based on what proper Church authority has competently declared. As for spin, that is your take so be it.

 

[setter]

thistle:

Three Bishops Commissions have declared there is no evidence of anything supernatural taking place in Medjugorie. The Bishops are the competent Church authority. Do you deny this??

I will take the bait – of course I do not deny this as every one of my posts reflect odediance to proper Church authority on this declaration. Though I do note that some posters have a difficult time with anyone who chooses to operate within what is allowed with this declaration, and offer those organizations, people who abuse and disregard competent Church authority as a slam dunk rebuttal for what is allowed by the faithful.

 

[thistle]

setter:

I will take the bait – of course I do not deny this as every one of my posts reflect odediance to proper Church authority on this declaration. Though I do note that some posters have a difficult time with anyone who chooses to operate within what is allowed with this declaration, and offer those organizations, people who abuse and disregard competent Church authority as a slam dunk rebuttal for what is allowed by the faithful.

LOL. Sorry. I mixed you up with another poster.

 

[LambOfGod]

God Bless Everyone (*)

Well I went to the homepage of the newspaper which I gave a link to and you guys say has a bunch on nudes and so I looked for porno pics and did’nt see anything like what you guys are talking about.

Then again, I am on a very slow dial up and did’nt look very hard either because it takes way to long for things to load and beside I cannot understand anything of what is written in that language.

You guys are making a very big mistake by knocking Medjugorje and also Garabandal that someone happened to mention. Saints and messengers sent from God past and present always in most cases get the big backlash from everyone. In the bible God would say “go tell my people” and the prophet would say “but they wont listen to me” and God would say “tell them anyways”

And what happened? Gods messengers were always right and what happened to Gods people who did not listen (yikes) thats what happened. You guys all talk very smart and intelligent but you are missing sprituality, your intelligence is getting in the way …

You guys post alot of stuff that is just not legit, just a piece of paper posted on the web with a bunch of crummy slanders no real signature or anything just some guy saying “well this is what so and so said” I gave you as far as im concerned a legit photo from a newspaper, a picture says a thousand words with a real signature.

Pope John Paul II was/is the most marian pope ever (and that is legit) and there is a reason for that, because Mother Mary has never appeared more in history then she has in the 20th century.

She is appearing everywhere on all corners of the earth, in every state of America she has appeared, calling calling calling wheres my bishops wheres my priests wheres my religious. And most of the people turn a deaf ear, just like other denominations.

You hear but you are deaf, you see but you are blind, just like Jesus says.

To be Catholic is to be very blessed more blessed then any other denomination, but you guys are giving a very good example of giving your Catholic brothers and sisters the big backlash when the Virgin Mary or Jesus is said to be visiting them. Which in turn is not a good example for other denominations.

The 1st reaction is unbelief

The 2nd reaction is unbelief

The 3rd reaction is unbelief

Why don’t you try and believe for once, instead of always looking for a fault … unbelief keeps the heart hard like stone.

In Jesus Name Thy Will Be Done, Amen and Amen (*)

 

[LukeQ]

Hi LambofGod,

you wrote:

Well I went to the homepage of the newspaper which I gave a link to and you guys say has a bunch on nudes and so I looked for porno pics and did’nt see anything like what you guys are talking about.

Besides the humour at face value to what you wrote, (and by jingo, this thread needs a little light relief…), Seriously, the paper’s journalistic standard is not of the New York Times or the Sydney Morning Herald, given its pronographic content - (I am not going to tell you exactly where it is so as not to scandalise this site’s readers, but what I saw was clearly stated in my post of last week). Please re-read my post to verify what I have stated and how presumption was created that a Papal Blessing incorrectly translates into Papal Approval. Enough on this.

This thread is on Medj. but as you mention Garabandal, this false apparition was condemned by sucessive Local Ordinaries through the power of Apostolic Sucession as granted through the Magisterium of the Church from 1961. That is, it has been unapproved by the Church for 35 years! See this link and read the pdf files: theotokos.org.uk/pages/unapprov/garaband/garaband.html
Let’s not write on Garabandal here.

Pope John Paul II was Catholic and he had a special devotion to Our Blessed Mother. However, He not only used Faith but Reason as expressed in his Encyclical. We must test everything and be obiedient to the Church. There are only 11 or 14 approved Marian apparitions in 20Century but there has been 400 or so reports of alleged apparitions of which Medjugorje is one. 386 of those are either unapproved or condemned by the Church.
LambofGod - are you saying we should instantly believe all 400 appartions even if Holy Mother Church through Her Local Ordinaries, (Bishops), and the CDF have ruled there is no evidence of the Supernatural or that there is evidence of no Supernatural occurence?

Our Lord warned us in the Gospel not to run over here or there searching for Him and warned us that others would say that he is Him. St Louis de Montfort said:

“A counterfeiter usually makes coins only of gold or silver, rarely of other metals, because the latter would not be worth the trouble. Similarly, the devil leaves other devotions alone and counterfeits mostly those directed to Jesus and Mary … It is therefore very important, first to recognise false devotions to our Blessed Lady so as to avoid them, and to recognise true devotion in order to practice it.” (nn. 90-91)

theotokos.org.uk/pages/unapprov/unapprov.html

So, wWe must be prudent, patient and obiedient to the Church and give thanks for the approved appartions of Loudes and Fatima.

LambofGod - I can say that all people from both sides of this debate have indeed a strong Faith in God as expressed through His Church and also, I would never go as far as to question the spiritual suppleness of anyone’s heart.

To All - The dialogue in these last two posts highlights the polarisation of views on this topic very well. It is the reason why I post, in order to quell the divide as I have been on both sides of the fence.

Can we resume to Lux’s thought provoking analysis?

Luke

 

[Lux_et_veritas]

I won’t even address the generalizations that have been brought forth. Once again, people dismiss discussion of specifics, in favor of generalizations, and this does nothing.

This was my mistake. Luke says he has been on both sides of the fence. I was too. In fact, the man who confronted me, did so with a frying pan, repeatedly, as I threw all the same generalizations at him. But he kept hitting me with one thing: Obedience, or lack thereof, on the part of the seers. This is so totally incompatible with Divine Grace. It took me time to realize that.

Perhaps we need to look at: What is grace? It is a gift from God given freely, which gives us the power to overcome that which we would likely not be able to overcome on our own, or which would be difficult to overcome.

What increases grace? The Sacraments. However, people such as St. Bernadette were flooded with grace, which explains her high level of virtue and obedience. Her mother told her not to go to the grotto, she simply did not go, until her mother gave her permission to go back. Contrast that with the disobedience of Medjugorje “seers”, to their local Bishop, releasing messages daily when ordered on March 25, 1985 to cease their publication and release. This is not a “slam” it is a fact.

I did not understand grace and upon grasping it, is when I realized that it is no small thing when a “seer” disobeys their local Bishop or superior. That was the beginning of my turning point.

And, I am not obligated to believe in Medjugorje, even if a fourth commission were to ever approve the apparitions. But, I am obligated to dismiss it if they condemn it, which I have never proclaimed they had, and I am obligated to understand the position of the Ordinary and respect it. So, when he says messages should not be published, it is against virtue to even be reading them. Why? They were obtained through an act of disobedience.

I do wish we could get back on track to the 1978 Criteria for Apparition Discernment - the same document that all Bishops must use in discernment. This can keep us focused. However, for some reason I don’t think defenders of Medjugorje will bother because as long as they can continue talking in generalizations, they don’t have to discuss specifics. I should know…that is precisely the mistake I made. The discovery process was very difficult for me. And, for anyone who has not read the entire thread, you may not know that I lived there. I knew the “seers” as they came to the convent I was in. I personally knew Fr. Jozo and thought he was a fine and wonderful priest. Once I saw that this Franciscan I respected disobeyed his bishop, that too was revealing because obedience is not some kind of symbol for a Franciscan.

 

[blessedstar]

All these posts later and still no-one knows beyond all doubt whether this is a true apparition or not. It is dangerous to err on either side and Catholics should reserve any judgement at all until the Church makes declaration and upon declaration, follow that obediently.

When a person gets a bee in their bonnet for what they think is a just reason, the bee can turn around and in true justice sting them!

I have read through most of the posts here and I don’t want to be convinced here by either parties claiming true or false in regards to these alledged experiences. I hope no-one is hurt by their attachment to these apparitions and messages and I hope no-one regrets speaking out against a possible act of God and that is what is at risk when Catholics plunge in without being prudent and waiting for the Majesterium to speak.

I’m not trying to spoil the applecart here but it would be best not to discuss such topics as this even though the debate has been civil.

In my prayers

 

[setter]

blessedstar:

All these posts later and still no-one knows beyond all doubt whether this is a true apparition or not. It is dangerous to err on either side and Catholics should reserve any judgement at all until the Church makes declaration and upon declaration, follow that obediently.

When a person gets a bee in their bonnet for what they think is a just reason, the bee can turn around and in true justice sting them!

I have read through most of the posts here and I don’t want to be convinced here by either parties claiming true or false in regards to these alledged experiences. I hope no-one is hurt by their attachment to these apparitions and messages and I hope no-one regrets speaking out against a possible act of God and that is what is at risk when Catholics plunge in without being prudent and waiting for the Majesterium to speak.

I’m not trying to spoil the applecart here but it would be best not to discuss such topics as this even though the debate has been civil.

In my prayers

Well stated. Thank you for sharing your thoughts.

 

[setter]

Lux_et_veritas:

After reading more information and balancing it out with all of the good, I have come to a conclusion for myself that it is either a hoax or diabolical. This is not to say that good people aren’t finding God through their prayers there, but I cannot for the life of me understand how Our Lady would ever sanction disobedience disrespect, contempt, malice, defamation - in the name of “Queen of Peace”, all aimed at the Local Ordinary, who stuck well within the bounds of church doctrine. It would be one thing if the Bishops had told the kids to go commit murder. I mean, outright lying and pitting the Blessed Mother against the local bishop is unfathomable, and there is plenty of documentation that the “seers” did just this.

Buried beneath the good fruits, are many rotten fruits and those running around badmouthing a Bishop need to seriously evaluate their position.

I have given your conclusion some thought. Since there has been much, I mean alot, of authentic work of the Holy Spirit --conversion, reconversion, re-ignited and sustained desire and commitment to seeking greater personal holiness and participation in the sacramental life of the Church – as a consequence of Medjugorje, how do you explain such powerful and widespread working, outpouring of the Holy Spirit and the duping of many holy men and women if this alleged apparition is either a hoax or diabolical in origin as you conclude? I would be interested in your thoughts (and others) as this is often offered by pro-Mej folks as direct evidence of it’s authenticity. I believe that some non-flit or superficial explanation needs to be offered to further your cause since the good fruit it is an undisputed and compelling reality.

 

[Tominellay]

You’ve made a clever post, but I think all should keep in mind that the burden is not on the Church to disprove Medjugorje, and it’s not on Lux or anyone else on this board, either.

No one has asked you to prove that Medjugorje is authentic.

The facts presented to the investigators failed to authenticate these “apparitions”.

The facts need to be addressed before the “fruits”, in any case…

 

[setter]

Setter,

I think you are having difficulty understanding subjective from objective. The French Bishops area citing facts, which makes their statement objective. This was written in what, 2002 or 2004? The “Inside the Vatican” article you keep citing, repeatedly

, was written 10 years ago. I believe they have more recent articles discussing Medjugorje, which may not be on the web.
To correct your inaccuracy above, I cited the “Inside The Vatican” article one, as in 1 time only one, in only one, as in 1 post only, post #278. I would appreciate more thoroughness on your part before making incorrect emphasis in your feedback to me.

Your point that the article is dated does not change the import of the article that there are two sides to the fence in this debate.

Originally Posted by** setter**

I found the flavor of many posts less than objective in evidence presentation and willingness to argue from foregone conclusion beyond what has officially been declared. This despite not final ruling or exhaustive directive as to the approval/disapproval. IMO, this is presumptious, …I will stop here as I have already stated.

The aim of this thread is to get people to consider the position of the local Ordinary of Mostar first, and foremost. This is not being done on the vast majority of Medjugorje websites, nor in Medjugorje. Instead, this man is attacked at the worst, and disregarded at the least, which is equally as bad.

I revealed my own fall from grace as I slammed a local Ordinary whose job Holy Mother Church gives to discern the events in His diocese.

Any chance that your own personal experience may bias your ability to objectively evaluate the “facts”?

It is subjective to talk only about fruits and **how people “feel”. **

It is subjective to generalize and say that all that has been said is just “hearsay”. Is it?
I note your attempt to equate authentic fruit of the Spirit with “feelings”.

BTW – You repeatidly accuse me of not useful “generalizations”,when in fact you are blending my specific feedback with those of other participants on this thread–please distinguish when your feedback is specific to my scope of feedback and discussion and when more broad based.

Have you read all that the local Ordinary of Mostar-Duvno has asked us to read in order to balance out what we are getting on uncontrolled pro-Medjugorje websites which deliver “messages” obtained through an act of disobedience? Don’t you think it would be charitable and prudent to first seek out even the opinion of the local Ordinary? And, if you are going to blow him off, not respecting his wishes to disgest his speech at Maynooth Ireland, his latest statement and the Michael Davies book which he asks us to read, I would ask why? Is it because Medjugorje supporters have so convinced you that he is a bad man who won’t budge from his position? Have you read his conclusions to discern for yourself what he says, or have you taken it at the word of one, single Archbishop who clings to his view against 34 other bishops who sided with Bishop Zanic?

You insinuate my conscious ignorance and blatant disobediance to proper Church authority when I have committed neither. Why is this? You ask me “Don’t you think it would be charitable …”.

 

[setter]

(continue)

Here is your chance, and here is the chance for Irishgal to read what the Bishop wants us to read. If you refuse

, then I would ask that you search in your soul and ask why you would blow off the man, who by apostolic succession has been given the job of discernment.
Please cite me where I have “blown off” proper Church authority in the matter of approval for the alleged apprations at Medjugorje? I will not subject myself to be framed in such an uncharitable manner as you attempt.

Propoganda has stirred such resentment toward’s Bishop’s Zanic and Peric that people refuse to read and digest his opinions. If you disagree with him or any of his facts, please consider taking one issue at a time and discussing it. Once again, generalizations don’t work. That is subjective. It is objective to look at each item that is problematic and break it down into facts. Which are true facts, which are false? Who is promoting what is false and who bears the truth?

All this subjective versus objective stuff, need to get into the details to really understand the issue at hand. I all honesty you may want to try this one on for size as a plausible variant in this thread: Can’t see the the forest for the trees as in myopic vision.

Out of love and charity, and respect for this shepherd, won’t you please read what he asks us to read? If not, please tell me why so I can understand your reasoning?

I can make sound judgment on an as need to know basis based on my scope of participation in this thread. Time is a commodity not freely expended. It has to arrive at the need to know level of attention.

I can’t see anyone jumping into this thread to defend Medjugorje without first spending some time understanding the many concerns he and his successor have raised throughout the years. I ask all concerned to please do this and then talk about specific points you disagree with and why. Please be charitable in your response, not defensive.

I am neither a defender or opponent of this alleged apparition.

 

[setter]

Tominellay:

You’ve made a clever post, but I think all should keep in mind that the burden is not on the Church to disprove Medjugorje, and it’s not on Lux or anyone else on this board, either.

No one has asked you to prove that Medjugorje is authentic.

The facts presented to the investigators failed to authenticate these “apparitions”.

The facts need to be addressed before the “fruits”, in any case…

This does nothing to offset the point of view of folks who are swayed by the authentic works (“fruits”) of the Holy Spirit related to the events of Medjugorje. This was the entire point of my folks. Please do not confuse discussion of relevent periphery with being clever. You missed the point.

I am not in any way disputing that these alleged apparitions have been deemed by proper and competent Church authority that there is no evidence of any supernatural origin, and thus to be treated as thus. I am becoming amused that the con-Mej posters cannot receive discussion without accusing me of operating outside the realm of odediance to Church declaration. What gives?

 

[Jasny]

I’m new to this thead and it is so long I just couldn’t bring myself to read it all, so I’ll ask my stupid question: Has Medjugorje been condemed by the Church?

 

[Tominellay]

This may be a longer answer than you want…

The church has three possible judgement statements, or formulae, to give, not just two…

1. Constat de supernaturalitate
2. Non constat de supernaturalitate
3. Constat de non supernaturalitate

Formula number 1 is a statement of approval.

Formula number 2 is an opposite of number 1.

Formula number 3 is an opposite of number 1.

The official judgement of the Church is formula 2. The current bishop of Mostar has stated that he thinks both formula 2 and formula 3 might now apply…

 

[Jasny]

Tominellay:

This may be a longer answer than you want…

The church has three possible judgement statements, or formulae, to give, not just two…

1. Constat de supernaturalitate
2. Non constat de supernaturalitate
3. Constat de non supernaturalitate

Formula number 1 is a statement of approval.

Formula number 2 is an opposite of number 1.

Formula number 3 is an opposite of number 1.

The official judgement of the Church is formula 2. The current bishop of Mostar has stated that he thinks both formula 2 and formula 3 might now apply…

Sorry I have trouble with some complicated English is it condemded ? yes or no?

 

[Tominellay]

Jasny,

The Church has used the formula non constat de supernaturalitate regarding the events at Medjugorje.

Tominellay

 

[Jasny]

Tominellay:

Jasny,

The Church has used the formula non constat de supernaturalitate regarding the events at Medjugorje.

Tominellay

does that mean it is condemed? yes or no?

 

[Tominellay]

The Church uses the three formulae posted above…Sorry it isn’t easier.

 

[nkelly]

Greeting people.

This is a long thread an I haven’t had time to go throught it all. Forgive me if I’ve got my facts wrong, but isn’t the decision of bishop Peric
“constat de non supernaturalitate”? So if the apparitions are not supernatural (divine), the seers are either very good actors, or are mad or they have been deceived by the devil.

How can anyone accept apparitions the include messages such as:

“he told me that nowadays most souls go to Purgatory”
“All religions are equal before God,”

See geocities.com/athens/oracle/9463/medjugorje.html

God bless,
Noel.