Medjugorje - A True Confession

[setter]

irishgal:

Continuation of my previous post No. 1:

As you can see by the end of my last post, Catholics are HAVE NOT BEEN FORBIDDEN to go to Medjugorje.

…continuing on with the letters from Catholic heirarchy regarding Medjugorje and the Catholic Church:​

A clarification from Cardinal Schonborn:

The letter of Archbishop Bertone to the Bishop of Le Reunion sufficiently makes clear what has always been the official position of the hierarchy during recent years concerning Medjugorje: namely, that it knowingly leaves the matter undecided. The supernatural character is not established; such were the words used by the former conference of bishops of Yugoslavia in Zadar in 1991. It really is a matter of wording, which knowingly leaves the matter pending. It has not been said that the supernatural character is substantially established. Furthermore, it has not been denied or discounted that the phenomena may be of a supernatural nature. There is no doubt that the magisterium of the Church does not make a definite declaration while the extraordinary phenomena are going on in the form of apparitions or other means. Indeed it is the mission of the shepherds to promote what is growing, to encourage the fruits which are appearing, to protect them, if need be, from the dangers which are obviously everywhere.

It is also necessary at Lourdes to see to it that the original gift of Lourdes not be stifled by unfortunate developments. Neither is Medjugorje invulnerable. That is why it is and will be so important that bishops be very conscientious about their mission as shepherds for Medjugorje, so that the obvious fruits that are in that place might be protected from any possible unfortunate errors.

I believe that the words of Mary at Cana: “Do whatever He tells you,” make up the substance of what s he says throughout the centuries. Mary helps us to hear Jesus and she desires with her whole heart and with all her strength that we do what He tells us. This is what I wish for all the communities of prayer which were formed from Medjugorje; this is what I wish for our diocese and for the Church.

…Personally, I have not been to Medjugorjre, but in a certain way I have been there many times through the people I have met and the people I know. And in their lives I am seeing good fruit. I would be lying, if I said this fruit did not exist. This fruit is concrete and visible and I can see in our diocese and in many other places graces of conversion, graces of a supernatural life of faith, graces of joy, graces of vocations, of healings, of people returning to the Sacraments - to confession. **All this is not misleading. Therefore, as far as I am concerned, as a Bishop, I can only see the fruit. If we had to judge the tree by it’s fruit, like Jesus, I must say that the tree ia fruitful! **

Cardinal Christoph Schonborn

Cardinal Schonborn, the Archbishop of Vienna, **who gave the Holy Father and his Papal Household their 1998 Lenten Retreat ** (and who was head of the church’s commission responsible for the “Catechism of the Catholic Church”), gave the preceeding testimony in Lourdes on July 18, 1998. The Cardinal’s words were published in “Medjugorje Gebetsakion”, #50, and in “Stella Maris”, #343, pp. 19, 20. "

Thank you for posting the clarification by this respected Bishop of the Church. I am amazed and disturbed that the con-Mej folks on this thread would have us believe otherwise/beyond than what proper Church hierarchy has declared otherwise.

 

[setter]

irishgal:

If one searches hard enough on the internet one can find a wealth of information about Unity Publishing and its founder. If anyone is using their web site and its publications for your source of anti-Medjugorje information, you should investigate further what its true agenda is.

Out of curiosity and a growing suspicion I just completed a google search of **Unity Publishing ** and some of their adherents – **Rick Salbato, Phil Kronzer, and Michael Davies ** – these folks are basically frothing at the mouth in their enterprise to smear Medjugorje and anyone who does not agree with their agenda. Some scarry and wacked-out stuff. No wonder I felt not drawn and cautious about following through with the con-Mej posters who kept repeatidly insisting that I need to read this material.

Here is a sampling of some of what I found, which I believe is relevent to the thread discussion at hand, because at least for me big yellow caution lights now go on when any of these folks or those associated with Unity Publishing are offered as required reading source documents to *really understand * Medjugorje:

WHAT THE CHURCH REALLY SAYS

Mother Angelica of EWTN is also apparently a member of the Catholic elite …Father Stefano Gobbi is another “celebrity priest”, …Another case that can be called to mind is the fact that Hans Urs Von Balthasar … by the fact that he is considered safely within the camp of the “neo-conservative elite”

unitypublishing.com/Apparitions/BrianF.html

Una Voce, Defending our Traditions in a Legal and Orthodox Way, Which Unity Publishing Supports. Its current International President is Mr. Michael Davies of London, England.

Una Voce+Unity Publishing+Michael Davies

Clearly, Michael Davies, the head of Una Voce International, is moving farther and farther astray, and is openly “consorting,” as one person put it, with the most extreme and distempered opponents of the Holy Father who have sprinted down the road to schism, as witness the following September, 2001, advertisements from The Remnant, the ultraist St. Paul, MN bi-weekly (published out of the editor’s mother’s cellar). These unfortunate enemies of the Holy Father are to the “right” what the National “Catholic” Reporter is to the left. Both crucify our suffering Pope and thrive financially by constant opposition to him.
From The Remnant —September, 2001:
“Michael Davies to speak at The Remnant Forum in October”

.
tcrnews2.com/davies2.html

. Rick Salbato, head of the San Jose-based Unity Publishing, Inc, is a fierce critic of Medjugorje. He has joined forces with **Philip Kronzer ** to expose the “deception” of Medjurgorje through literature and videos. Kronzer, a successful businessman with $12 million in assets, has produced two videos on the Medjugorje apparitions, …The videos, “Visions on Demand” and “Divine or Deceived?”, were filmed on location in Medjugorje and Rome and feature such well-known Catholic authors and Medjugorje critics as **Michael Davies ** and E. Michael Jones, editor of the Catholic journal, Fidelity. “Visions on Demand” portrays the Medjurgorje apparitions as a font of lies and disobedience to Church authority, while “Divine or Deceived?” attempts to show the Marian center as a cover for an immense money smuggling operation.

sffaith.com/ed/articles/1998/1198cz.htm

From the Unity Publishing web page unitypublishing.com/ they equate The Legionaries of Christ with being a cult:

THE LEGIONARIES OF CHRIST & REGNUM CHRISTI:
SAVIORS OF THE CHURCH OR CULT

What is different about this new Movement is that (without a doubt) the founder is no saint. …There is no sense of the Holy Spirit in his talks and writings like Mother Therese of Calcutta. An overflowing of love is not seen.

There has been a barrage of complaints coming into this office about “The Movement” called the Legionaries of Christ. … We, at Unity Publishing, have been receiving complaints for over five years about this Movement simply for the fact that we investigate cults.

unitypublishing.com/NewReligiousMovements/Leagonaires2.html

Books from Fidelity Press
by E. Michael Jones, Ph.D. and others

culturewars.com/books.htm

 

[Tominellay]

setter,
Your posts are suspicious to me in this way: they’ve not introduced a single new piece of authoritative documentation, and they dismiss the most relevant documentation out-of-hand…

 

[setter]

setter,
Your posts are suspicious to me in this way: they’ve not introduced a single new piece of authoritative documentation, and they dismiss **the most relevant documentation ** out-of-hand…

Your short, quip responses are not convincing when growing evidence as to the agenda bias of yours and other con/anti-Mej select sources of “the most relevent documentaion” goes uncontested.

I have not dismissed any of yours and other con/anti-Mej “relevent documentation” out of hand. As I have previously articulated, I use discernment about what literature I will read and how I will spend my time. I did not feel compelled or prompted to read the extensive documentation offered. By way of discernment over growing suspect, I searched at the suggestion of another poster, and soon discovered the inherent bias and high subjectivity of the sources for your “the most relevent documentation”. I will stick with only the official declarations made by competent and proper Church authority and those competent shepherds of the Church, and recant when determined if I have extended beyond this scope of source documentation.

In the future, I ask that you be more thoughtful and charitable before you incorrectly characterize my post as “suspicious” and flippid as to “dismiss …out of hand”.

BTW – Do you have you any counter balance to offer for the my brief expose of the blatant agenda and inherent bias of the sources for those recommended “relevent documentation”?

 

[setter]

Lux_et_veritas:

The aim of this thread is to get people to consider the position of the local Ordinary of Mostar first, and foremost. This is not being done on the vast majority of Medjugorje websites, nor in Medjugorje. Instead, this man is attacked at the worst, and disregarded at the least, which is equally as bad.

I can’t see anyone jumping into this thread to defend Medjugorje without first spending some time understanding the many concerns he and his successor have raised throughout the years. I ask all concerned to please do this and then talk about specific points you disagree with and why.

Lux_et_veritas, I have one question for you: What is your GOAL if once your aim “to get people to consider the position of the local Ordinary of Mostar first, and foremost” is satisfied?

 

[Tominellay]

…what a tease!..hehehe…

 

[Tominellay]

Tominellay:

setter,
Mr. Conte is a self-styled “theologian”…

Sensus fidelium does not oppose the authority of an Ordinary in his diocese.

The above post #239 is an example of a short response that, coincidentally, called into question your preferred source, and without any histrionics…

Lets discuss the Brincard paper or any of Bishop Peric’s writings. What do they say?

 

[blessedstar]

What do you debaters here think of the information in this link?

spiritdaily.com/medjugorjeunusualmessages.htm

 

[bones_IV]

setter:

To offer counterpoint to this emotionally toned post: Since you cite Mother Angelica “distanced herself from Medjudgorje” as substantiation that this alleged aparition is a “hoax” and “crackpot apparition”, can you provide source documentation regarding the same? Also, can you please explain why many of the documents offered, as counter balance against the artificially extrapolated restrictions posed by con-Mej posters, source from the web page of EWTN? Otherwise, as the pro-Mej posters will remind you, this is simply your *personal opinion * and skewed *personal experience * and does not contribute to the debate at hand.

See the link, right here, EWTN’s statement is as clear as a bell.

Link

 

[bones_IV]

Setter,

I would also think twice about visionary Marija Lunetti and her credibility.

Link

Here’s what Mother Angelica thought.

Link

 

[GoldenArrow]

There are only 11 or 14 approved Marian apparitions in 20Century but there has been 400 or so reports of alleged apparitions of which Medjugorje is one. 386 of those are either unapproved or condemned by the Church.

In agreement with Luke. I’m reminded of a story from the Old Testament. In summary, the King of Israel consulted with 400 prophets before going into battle over Ramoth-gilead. 400 of his prophets testified the King of Israel would be victorious in battle. One prophet, Micaiah, stated the opposite, that the King of Israel would be defeated.

The King of Israel returned from battle dead.

It was revealed to Micaiah that the Lord allowed a spirit of deception to enter the 400 prophets who’d prophecied favorably for the King of Israel.

The moral of the story: one prophet out of 400 prophecied with the Spirit of Truth, while 400 prophecied with a Spirit of Lies. The Lord allowed the King of Israel to be deceived, for it was the Lord’s Will that the King of Israel fall in battle.

History tends to repeat itself. This could be the case today. The Lord may be allowing us to be decieved. He may have allowed the Spirit of Lies to enter 400 modern-day prophets … to test our fidelity perhaps.

Please read … (See next post…)

 

[GoldenArrow]

**
1 Kings Chapter 22, from the New American Bible**

6 The king of Israel gathered together the prophets, about four hundred of them, and asked, “Shall I go to attack Ramoth-gilead or shall I refrain?” “Go up,” they answered. "The LORD will deliver it over to the king."

But Jehoshaphat said, “Is there no other prophet of the LORD here whom we may consult?”

The king of Israel answered, “There is one other through whom we might consult the LORD, Micaiah, son of Imlah; but I hate him because he prophesies not good but evil about me.” Jehoshaphat said, “Let not your majesty speak of evil against you.”

So the king of Israel called an official and said to him, “Get Micaiah, son of Imlah, at once.”

The king of Israel and King Jehoshaphat of Judah were seated, each on his throne, clothed in their robes of state on a threshing floor at the entrance of the gate of Samaria, and all the prophets were prophesying before them.

Zedekiah, son of Chenaanah, made himself horns of iron and said, “The LORD says, ‘With these you shall gore Aram until you have destroyed them.’”

The other prophets prophesied in a similar vein, saying: “Go up to Ramoth-gilead; you shall succeed. The LORD will deliver it over to the king.”

The messenger who had gone to call Micaiah said to him, “Look now, the prophets are unanimously predicting good for the king. Let your word be the same as any of theirs; predict good.”

“As the LORD lives,” Micaiah answered, “I shall say whatever the LORD tells me.”

When he came to the king, the king said to him, “Micaiah, shall we go to fight against Ramoth-gilead, or shall we refrain?” “Go up,” he answered, “you shall succeed! The LORD will deliver it over to the king.”

But the king answered him, “How many times must I adjure you to tell me nothing but the truth in the name of the LORD?”

So Micaiah said: "I see all Israel scattered on the mountains, like sheep without a shepherd, and the LORD saying, ‘These have no master! Let each of them go back home in peace.’"

The king of Israel said to Jehoshaphat, “Did I not tell you he prophesies not good but evil about me?”

**Micaiah continued: "Therefore hear the word of the LORD: I saw the LORD seated on his throne, with the whole host of heaven standing by to his right and to his left.

The LORD asked, ‘Who will deceive Ahab, so that he will go up and fall at Ramoth-gilead?’ And one said this, another that, until one of the spirits came forth and presented himself to the LORD, saying, ‘I will deceive him.’ The LORD asked, ‘How?’

He answered, ‘I will go forth and become a lying spirit in the mouths of all his prophets.’ The LORD replied, ‘You shall succeed in deceiving him. Go forth and do this.’

So now, the LORD has put a lying spirit in the mouths of all these prophets of yours, but the LORD himself has decreed evil against you."**

Thereupon Zedekiah, son of Chenaanah, came up and slapped Micaiah on the cheek, saying, “Has the spirit of the LORD, then, left me to speak with you?”

“You shall find out,” Micaiah replied, “on that day when you retreat into an inside room to hide.”

The king of Israel then said, “Seize Micaiah and take him back to Amon, prefect of the city, and to Joash, the king’s son, and say, ‘This is the king’s order: Put this man in prison and feed him scanty rations of bread and water until I return in safety.’”

But Micaiah said, "If ever you return in safety, the LORD has not spoken through me."

The king of Israel and King Jehoshaphat of Judah went up to Ramoth-gilead, and the king of Israel said to Jehoshaphat, “I will disguise myself and go into battle, but you put on your own clothes.” So the king of Israel disguised himself and entered the fray.

In the meantime the king of Aram had given his thirty-two chariot commanders the order, “Do not fight with anyone at all except the king of Israel.”

When the chariot commanders saw Jehoshaphat, they cried out, “That must be the king of Israel!” and shifted to fight him. But Jehoshaphat shouted his battle cry, and the chariot commanders, aware that he was not the king of Israel, gave up pursuit of him.

Someone, however, drew his bow at random, and hit the king of Israel between the joints of his breastplate. He ordered his charioteer, “Rein about and take me out of the ranks, for I am disabled.”

**The battle grew fierce during the day, and the king, who was propped up in his chariot facing the Arameans, died in the evening. The blood from his wound flowed to the bottom of the chariot.

At sunset a cry went through the army, “Every man to his city, every man to his land, for the king is dead!” So they went to Samaria, where they buried the king.

When the chariot was washed at the pool of Samaria, the dogs licked up his blood and harlots bathed there, as the LORD had prophesied.**

 

[setter]

Originally Posted by Tominellay
setter,
Mr. Conte is a self-styled “theologian”…

Sensus fidelium does not oppose the authority of an Ordinary in his diocese.

The above post #239 is an example of a short response that, coincidentally, called into question your preferred source, and without any histrionics…

Duly noted. I will remind you that I left uncontested your challenge to the credibility of this "self-styled ‘theologian’ " and never again referenced or offered his comments in this discussion. To make it clear, I recant from my offering Mr. Conte’s commentary since he is lacking credible merit and competent credentials to the discussion at hand.

Originally Posted by setter

I will stick with only the official declarations made by competent and proper Church authority and those competent shepherds of the Church, and recant when determined if I have extended beyond this scope of source documentation.

Lets discuss the Brincard paper or any of Bishop Peric’s writings. What do they say?

You make the argument. If I choose to do so I will respond. What do you say?

 

[setter]

bones_IV:

See the link, right here, EWTN’s statement is as clear as a bell.

Link

Your link goes to EWTN FAQ’s page with numerous link pages for categories for FAQ. I am not sure what you are referring to as “EWTN’s statement as clear as a bell”? Please be more specific in your reference in order for this link to be useful and whatever point that you were trying to make be made clear.

 

[setter]

bones_IV:

Setter,

I would also think twice about visionary Marija Lunetti and her credibility.

Link

Here’s what Mother Angelica thought.

Link

I am missing 1) your point, and 2) whatever point you are tring to make, what relevency it has to the discussion at hand.

Care to specify more clearly?

 

[setter]

There are only 11 or 14 approved Marian apparitions in 20Century but there has been 400 or so reports of alleged apparitions of which Medjugorje is one. 386 of those are either unapproved or condemned by the Church.

GoldenArrow:

In agreement with Luke. I’m reminded of a story from the Old Testament. In summary, the King of Israel consulted with 400 prophets before going into battle over Ramoth-gilead. 400 of his prophets testified the King of Israel would be victorious in battle. One prophet, Micaiah, stated the opposite, that the King of Israel would be defeated.

The King of Israel returned from battle dead.

It was revealed to Micaiah that the Lord allowed a spirit of deception to enter the 400 prophets who’d prophecied favorably for the King of Israel.

The moral of the story: one prophet out of 400 prophecied with the Spirit of Truth, while 400 prophecied with a Spirit of Lies. The Lord allowed the King of Israel to be deceived, for it was the Lord’s Will that the King of Israel fall in battle.

History tends to repeat itself. This could be the case today. The Lord may be allowing us to be decieved. He may have allowed the Spirit of Lies to enter 400 modern-day prophets … to test our fidelity perhaps.

Please read … (See next post…)

Any source citation to back these numbers of alleged apparititons? How many of these alleged apparitions have been officially investigated? How many of these alleged apparitions have been ruled on or condemned (as “Spirit of Lies”)?

Unless you can source answer these questions, your conjecture and extrapolation is just that – personal unsubstantiated conjecture and erroneous extrapolation (“moral of the story”).

But yes, either way, our faith should not hinge on alleged or even approved apparitions. Condemned apparitions are just that --condemned, forbidden for the faithful to put any stock in what so ever.

 

[setter]

**
1 Kings Chapter 22, from the New American Bible**

6 The king of Israel gathered together the prophets, about four hundred of them, and asked, “Shall I go to attack Ramoth-gilead or shall I refrain?” “Go up,” they answered. “The LORD will deliver it over to the king.” …

**The battle grew fierce during the day, and the king, who was propped up in his chariot facing the Arameans, died in the evening. The blood from his wound flowed to the bottom of the chariot.

At sunset a cry went through the army, “Every man to his city, every man to his land, for the king is dead!” So they went to Samaria, where they buried the king.

When the chariot was washed at the pool of Samaria, the dogs licked up his blood and harlots bathed there, as the LORD had prophesied.**

It is good that you read the bible. I especially enjoy and benefit reading the OT as it often makes more concrete the realities of spiritual warfare at hand in my life – the stakes at hand, the strategies employed by the opponents, the need to stay faithful and close to God, and the need to rely on the strength and power from God to prevail and defeat the enemy. However, I am not sure how this particular passage has relevency to the thread discussion at hand, i.e., your premise is lacking, IMO.

 

[nkelly]

Could I ask the supporters of Medjugorje if they have read Michael
Davies book as Lux suggested? It’s freely available at:

mdaviesonmedj.com/fulltext.rtf

Could anyone suggest why Bishop Peric hasn’t changed the ‘non constat de …’ to ‘constat de non …’? Doesn’t he have enough proof
that the events at Medjugorge aren’t supernatural? I presume it’s within his power to change the offical position.

How can people possibly believe that something so divisive as these so called apparitions really from the Mother of God?

BTW, I used to believe in Medjugorje and Bayside until I was shown the error of my ways…

Noel.

 

[pbaylis]

Have you been to Medjugorje? Possibly the Holy Spirit would enlighen you there. Maturity, measure, balance, these are all things for theorists and sterile intellectuals to get excited about. We should be getting rid of these things and becoming like little children with pure hearts before Almighty God.

Medjugorje is an intensely personal thing. You can theorise about it until the proverbial cows come home, but if you actually went there, well…if I go on I’ll sound like I’m a travel agent trying to sell a flight.

For the record, I HAVE been to Medjugorje. I went for personal reasons and had a franciscan monk lay hands on me before I went over. I felt a searing heat leave his hands and enter through the top of my head into my chest and leaving a tingling feeling. While in Medjugorje, I just had to walk past priests laying their hands on pther people to get this same tingling feeling. The Holy Spirit is there! Not in your office or amongst your theology books. Another thing that happened to me: I happened to step onto the porch of Vicka’s house when a heavy weight came on me. Feeling that I was being pushed to my knees, in alarm I got off the porch. I’m not sure what either of these events were all about. These are tiny events compared to what others experience. If you have holday time coming, I highly recommend taking a trip and end all the speculation (for you personally).

setter:

This material that you and others repeatidly insist that I need to read *in order to be enlightened to the real happenings * behind Medjugorje phenomenon is just opinion and interpretation. Frankly, I will await the prompting of the Holy Spirit if this is needed material for my discernment. Otherwise, I will not partake in someone else’s bias to “indoctrinate” my understanding.

I am becoming more impressed as this thread unfolds that much subjective hurt and disillusionment have skewed many poster’s ability to measure a balanced and mature discernment and to refrain from overstepping the bounds of what has been officially declared for the alleged spiritual phenomenon at Medjugorje.

 

[pbaylis]

It is my understand that the sticking point is that the events could be diabolical as much as from God. That is why we keep mentioning the fruits. Satan wouldn’t tell people to go to confession or pray the rosary. Anyone who thinks so is simply fishing or spoiling for a fight. It is just not clear enough from an objective viewpoint that these are indeed from God. Science is ill-equipped to deal with anything like this. Everything is off the scale. And since God has not expressly shown Himself as being behind these events, no-one is about to call it miraculous, miraculous in this sense meaning “of God”.

nkelly:

Could I ask the supporters of Medjugorje if they have read Michael
Davies book as Lux suggested? It’s freely available at:

mdaviesonmedj.com/fulltext.rtf

Could anyone suggest why Bishop Peric hasn’t changed the ‘non constat de …’ to ‘constat de non …’? Doesn’t he have enough proof
that the events at Medjugorge aren’t supernatural? I presume it’s within his power to change the offical position.

How can people possibly believe that something so divisive as these so called apparitions really from the Mother of God?

BTW, I used to believe in Medjugorje and Bayside until I was shown the error of my ways…

Noel.