Medjugorje - A True Confession

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Be careful. I’ve spent a lot of time responding to people on IIDB.org - a staunchly atheist forum and they dream up ALL KINDS of rebuttals and are the kings of taking things out of context, with the express intention of smearing anything that threatens their position. Be fairly warned. Atheists come to this forum too. They have a lot to lose if God exists.
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setter:
I am missing 1) your point, and 2) whatever point you are tring to make, what relevency it has to the discussion at hand.

Care to specify more clearly?
 
PBaylis,

it’s well known that the devil can appear as an angel of light.
I don’t need to go to Medjugorje and I never will! All the rules of
discernment (heresy, obedience etc) all point to it’s being false!

People keep missing the point! People are going on pilgrimages to Medjugorje despite the prohibition by the bishops.

Medjugorje is splitting the Church! Why can’t people see this!???

God bless,
Noel.
 
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Lux_et_veritas:
Well, it appears that some in this thread do not feel Holy Obedience means anything. Apparently, some believe God does not grace “seers” with extraordinary virtue when he allows His Mother to appear to them.
I think you’re hiding behind this obedience thing for whatever reason. If obedience were such a terminal issue, why did Jesus not obey those God placed in the Jewish leadership? Because his allegiance is firstly to God. Why did Jesus leave his mother and run off to the temple without telling her? Because his allegiance is firstly to God. Why have their been so many martyrs??? Because they got in trouble with the law because their allegiance was with God!

Who do you obey? God or a local bishop with a grudge against the popularity of the Franciscans (I apologise if I have misdjudged his motives, but it reeks of that and simply that). From Father Jozo and the visionaries perspective, they are listening to God himself on one hand and a local bishop on the other. It is only disobedience if the apparitions are false. If God is telling them to do something, it would be worse to disobey God (as many prophets have discovered).
It is opportune to ask ourselves if the events of Medjugorje have produced good fruits in the visionaries who, at least during the duration of the “apparitions”, must by their life be the first witnesses of the grace of which they say they benefit. From there it follows that we ask ourselves the following questions: “Have they obeyed the Bishop of Mostar? Have they respected him?..” Such questions and still others yet, are habitually part of a serious investigation into an event of apparitions. In order for the investigation to arrive at a solid conclusion, it is necessary that these fundamental questions receive a clear and objective response.
I don’t understand why you are allowing yourself to be entangled in all the red tape. Are you so naive that you think there are not villains even within the walls of the vatican?
We would like to say nothing about the doubtful or even bad fruits. But the truth obliges us to say that they exist. Let us quote, as examples, the calling into question, even to the point of defamation, of the Local Ordinary as well as the disobedience with regard to his legitimate authority; the exacerbation of the Herzegovina ‘question’ following the words attributed to “the Gospa”, words in favour of the Franciscans and against the Bishop (10).
These aren’t bad fruits in the bigger picture. These are individual incidents related to specific people. We can put it down to individual sin at best. But, you are on some ulterior mission if you seriously think you can cast bad light on the vast quantities of good fruits.
 
You keep missing the point that the Bishop’s prohibition is wrongly motivated. He was invited by the visionaries in a friendly manner to a celebration and invited to speak. His whole speech was an unexpected angry tirade against Franciscans and the visionaries that people were completely embarrased to listen to. No bishop should behave this way no matter the prompting.

And the second point you’ve missed is that the public can choose to listen to the vatican directly and not to the local bishop. Everyone knows he hates Franciscans.

Yes, the angel can appear as an angel of light and that’s why nobody’s saying it’s definitely a miracle.
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nkelly:
PBaylis,

it’s well known that the devil can appear as an angel of light.
I don’t need to go to Medjugorje and I never will! All the rules of
discernment (heresy, obedience etc) all point to it’s being false!

People keep missing the point! People are going on pilgrimages to Medjugorje despite the prohibition by the bishops.

Medjugorje is splitting the Church! Why can’t people see this!???

God bless,
Noel.
 
Setter, Irishgal

To Cardinal Schonborn’s letter, I say that he, like any other priest or bishop is entitled to his personal opinion and that letter remains his personal opinion. Does this sound familiar?

Cardinal Schonborn does not have jurisdiction over Medjugorje. Bishop Peric does.

You can post all you want from Laurentin and Rupcic as well. They do not have jurisdiction over Medjugorje.

With regards to Unity Publishing:

Anything I have pasted from there has been copies of letters, just like the one pasted above from Cardinal Schonborn, which does not link to any place. One thing I’ve learned about avid Medjugorje defenders: Discredit anything at all that comes from the Unity Publishing website, even though all that I have posted from the site can be found on other websites because they are public record from the Holy See or elsewhere.

I have done the same with the Michael Davies book and have repeated many times that if one were to strip the commentary out of the book, it would remain half full with diocesan, vatican, and religious order documents. Included are full length transcripts of audio interviews which were truncated by Laurentin. When one looks at the entire transcript, without it having been sanitized in the manner that it was, it reveals something quite negative. An example can be found somewhere in this thread so i am not going to repeat it. People are going to have to take the time to read and find it.
 
Michael Davies was the head of Una Voce International. So…? I’ve had other Medjugorje supporters attempt to discredit Michael Davies because he was the head of Una Voce. Perhaps this was not intended, but the emphasis on Michael Davies and Una Voce seemed to point in this direction in the above posts where it is raised.

Look what the former Cardinal Ratzinger says about it:

“The International Una Voce Federation has played an important role in supporting the use of the 1962 edition of the Roman Missal in obedience to the directives of the Holy See. For this valuable service I express my gratitude to the members of the Federation and extend my blessing.”

Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, Prefect of the Congregation of the Doctrine of the Faith, speaking to the Una Voce Federation,
25 July 1996

And this from Catholic News Service (with the above reiterated):

One of the cornerstones of Tradition in the Church is the Mass – passed down and kept intact in its essentials from its first celebration by Christ until the present time. An increasing number of Catholics have become devoted to the traditional Latin Mass, universally celebrated by the western Church prior to the 1960’s because it is so richly expresses the doctrinal beliefs of the Church.

In 1988, His Holiness Pope John Paul II confirmed that the traditional Latin Mass is permitted anywhere with the approval of the local bishop. Since then, over half the dioceses of the United States have established weekly Latin Masses – and some have whole parishes devoted to the traditional Mass. Pope John Paul II also founded religious orders devoted to the 1962 Missal and these orders have an abundance of vocations.

As Cardinal Ratzinger, Pope Benedict XVI has worked to promote a “wide and generous application” of the traditional Latin Mass.
At a lecture given in Rome in 1998 to an audience of some 3000 Catholics, Pope Benedict noted that the many Latin Mass communities which have emerged since 1988 “have given the Church a great number of priestly and religious vocations … through them, many of the faithful have been confirmed in the joy of being able to live the liturgy, and confirmed in their love for the Church, or perhaps they have rediscovered both.”

The new Holy Father has also occasionally celebrated the traditional Latin Masses including a pontifical High Mass on Easter Sunday in 1990 and at the International Seminary of St. Peter, the seminary of a religious order devoted entirely to the the traditional Latin Mass.

**He has been an outspoken supporter of the work of Una Voce, an international organization devoted to promoting the traditional Mass saying “the International Una Voce Federation has played an important role in supporting the use of the 1962 edition of the Roman Missal in obedience to the directives of the Holy See. For this valuable service I express my gratitude to the members of the Federation and extend my blessing." **
Catholics devoted to the 1962 Missal and the rich tradition of the Latin Mass have good cause to say Deo Gratias with the election of Cardinal Ratzinger as Pope Benedict XVI.

Una Voce America is part of an international body of Catholics promoting the celebration of the Mass and the sacraments in Latin, according to the liturgical books in effect in 1962. It draws its inspiration from Pope John Paul II’s 1988 apostolic letter “Ecclesia Dei,” in which he urged a wide and generous access to the traditional Latin Mass throughout the world for all Catholics. More information on Una Voce and the traditional Latin Mass can be found at www.unavoce.org.
 
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pbaylis:
You keep missing the point that the Bishop’s prohibition** is wrongly motivated. **He was invited by the visionaries in a friendly manner to a celebration and invited to speak. **His whole speech was an unexpected angry tirade against Franciscans and the visionaries that people were completely embarrased to listen to. No bishop should behave this way no matter the prompting. **

** And the second point you’ve missed is that the public can choose to listen to the vatican directly and not to the local bishop. Everyone knows he hates Franciscans.**

Yes, the angel can appear as an angel of light and that’s why nobody’s saying it’s definitely a miracle.
It take very strong exception to such attacks against the Ordinary of Mostar-Duvno. Your attitude with regards to this Bishop is precisely what my original post was about. It was my attitude and it was fueled by emotional support for Medjugorje.

I realized I was engaging in sinful detraction and, upon discovering official documents pertaining to the so-called “fued”, which is called “The Herzegovina Question”, I fell to my knees before my confessor and acknowledged that I had passed along calumnous information given to me by pro-Medjugorje websites.

How much time have you spent investigating “The Herzegovina Question”? This is at the heart of the accusations Medjugorje defenders use to attack the bishop. Here is the result:

23 March 1998

The Franciscan Rebellion in Herzegovina— Rome Acts


Congregation for the Religious

Prot. No. 32343/97


Holy Father, the procurator general of the OFM beseeches your Holiness to confirm the decree for the dismissal from the aforesaid order of Fra. Petar Barbaric, pronounced on 2 March 1998 by the general minister for the reasons mentioned previously.

The Congregation for the Religious,8 having carefully considered the matters set out above,9 confirms the aforesaid decree for the dismissal from the aforesaid order of Fra. Boniface Petar Barbaric as requested, in conformity with the provisions of Canons 696/700 of the Code of Canon Law on the grounds of his unauthorized absence [that is to say, from the house of his order], all the consequences prescribed by canons 701 and 702 of the Code of Canon Law moreover ensuing.

Contrariis quibuslibet non obstantibus, ili.

Vatican City, 23 March 1998

O.D. Di Odoardo CP, Jesus Torres CMF,

Principal of the Section Undersecretary

Copy conformed to the original, Fr. Antonio Riccio.

Continued…next post.
 
Congregation for Religious

Prot. No. 32344/97


Holy Father, the procurator general of the OFM beseeches your Holiness to confirm the decree for the dismissal from the aforesaid order of Fra Bozo Rados pronounced on 2 March 1998 by the general minister for the reasons mentioned previously.

The Congregation for Religious, having carefully considered the matters set out below, confirms the aforesaid decree for the dismissal from the aforesaid order of Fra Bozo Rados as requested, in conformity with the provisions of canons 696/700 of the Code of Canon Law on the grounds of his unauthorized absence [that is to say, from the house of his order], all the consequences prescribed by canons 701 and 702 of the Code of Canon Law moreover ensuing.

Contrariis quibuslibet non obstantibus, ili.

Vatican City, 23 March 1998

O.D. Di Odoardo CP, Jesus Torres CMF,

Principal of the Section Undersecretary

Copy conformed to the original, Fr. Antonio Riccio.

And, this is just the tip of the ice-berg. Sanctions against several other Franciscan priests have been handed down from the Vatican.

I’ve gone over my alotted time and I will post more on the actions of the Franciscans and show how the “gospa” supported priests the Holy See dismissed. Some Franciscans even continued to hear confessions and say Mass after their penalties were handed down.

Fr. Jozo Zovko was sanctioned and continued to hear confessions and as a result. received very heavy penalties. I’ll be glad to post this information.

How does the Church leave in place the Bishop of Mostar-Duvno, all the while expelling numerous Franciscans. The community is still sanctioned as a whole and is under the authority of Rome. This is due to significant disobedience with regards to “The Herzegovina Question”. They were under sanction just before the “apparitions” began.

Rome has been very involved in this “dispute” between the local Bishop and the Franciscans and the Franciscans have lost every single time. So, if anyone has a problem with the Bishop on this matter, they have problem with the most holy Catholic Church itself.

Pro-Medjugorje websites do not provide details of the “fued”. They only provide loose accusations about the Bishop being wrongly motivated, which is highly calumnous and downright sinful in the way it leads people to believe he is a bad bishop.

Such actions do not come from God. Deception comes only from the Angel of Deception! Your post illustrates perfectly just how well the cult of Medjugorje defenders are causing people to attack the apostolic successor of Mostar-Duvno, which is an attack on the Church itself.
 
You are starting to amaze me, even worry me. And why have you not responded to my other points regarding obedience and good fruits?

If some type of split happens between Medjuogorje believers and unbelievers, it will be such a silly thing. So far the detractions have been all about cults of personalities, jealousies and machinations on the one hand and, on the other, people just quietly travelling to Medjugorje, praying the rosary, going to confession and coming back better people.

Why oh why do people have to spend such inordinate amounts of time picking holes in something, when the option to “Wait and see the truth” is open to everyone.

Mind you the passage of time should be a clear indication that this isn’t going to end up proven a hoax. After 25 years, not a single visionary has cracked or succumbed to a multi-million dollar payout for “coming clean”, no scientist can claim fraud. All that’s happened in 25 years is that millions more people are praying the rosary for themselves and for each other and spreading the peace message across the globe.

Methinks you are enjoying your little Sherlock Holmes adventure a little too much.
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Lux_et_veritas:
It take very strong exception to such attacks against the Ordinary of Mostar-Duvno. Your attitude with regards to this Bishop is precisely what my original post was about. It was my attitude and it was fueled by emotional support for Medjugorje.

I realized I was engaging in sinful detraction and, upon discovering official documents pertaining to the so-called “fued”, which is called “The Herzegovina Question”, I fell to my knees before my confessor and acknowledged that I had passed along calumnous information given to me by pro-Medjugorje websites.

How much time have you spent investigating “The Herzegovina Question”? This is at the heart of the accusations Medjugorje defenders use to attack the bishop. Here is the result:

23 March 1998

The Franciscan Rebellion in Herzegovina— Rome Acts


Congregation for the Religious

Prot. No. 32343/97


Holy Father, the procurator general of the OFM beseeches your Holiness to confirm the decree for the dismissal from the aforesaid order of Fra. Petar Barbaric, pronounced on 2 March 1998 by the general minister for the reasons mentioned previously.

The Congregation for the Religious,8 having carefully considered the matters set out above,9 confirms the aforesaid decree for the dismissal from the aforesaid order of Fra. Boniface Petar Barbaric as requested, in conformity with the provisions of Canons 696/700 of the Code of Canon Law on the grounds of his unauthorized absence [that is to say, from the house of his order], all the consequences prescribed by canons 701 and 702 of the Code of Canon Law moreover ensuing.

Contrariis quibuslibet non obstantibus, ili.

Vatican City, 23 March 1998

O.D. Di Odoardo CP, Jesus Torres CMF,

Principal of the Section Undersecretary

Copy conformed to the original, Fr. Antonio Riccio.

Continued…next post.
 
Hello again pbaylis,

Re:
I think you’re hiding behind this obedience thing for whatever reason.
Obedience to the Church is absolutely paramount! Our Lord said so:
Luke 10:16: He that heareth you, heareth me; and he that despiseth you, despiseth me; and he that despiseth me, despiseth him that sent me.
If you’ve read St. Faustina’s Diary, you’ll see several examples of where St. Faustina was obedient to her superiors first and then to Jesus! This is what Jesus expected of her!

God bless,
Noel.
 
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pbaylis:
You are starting to amaze me, even worry me. And why have you not responded to my other points regarding obedience and good fruits?

If some type of split happens between Medjuogorje believers and unbelievers, it will be such a silly thing. So far the detractions have been all about cults of personalities, jealousies and machinations on the one hand and, on the other, people just quietly travelling to Medjugorje, praying the rosary, going to confession and coming back better people.

Why oh why do people have to spend such inordinate amounts of time picking holes in something, when the option to “Wait and see the truth” is open to everyone.

Mind you the passage of time should be a clear indication that this isn’t going to end up proven a hoax. After 25 years, not a single visionary has cracked or succumbed to a multi-million dollar payout for “coming clean”, no scientist can claim fraud. All that’s happened in 25 years is that millions more people are praying the rosary for themselves and for each other and spreading the peace message across the globe.

Methinks you are enjoying your little Sherlock Holmes adventure a little too much.
I have responded many times about the good fruits arguments. Perhaps you have missed it. Here is my response again:

Good fruits alone are not a true measure of authenticity. Rather, it is the weighing of good and bad fruits together. As the French Bishops pointed out, and as they 1978 criteria for discernment of apparitions (Vatican criteria) points out, events must be judged. This is what Bishop Zanic did in the earliest days of his investigation - judge the events. What does the diocese document with regards to the events? That one of the chilcren, I believe Vicka, lied right in her first sworn testimony to him when she told him they were out in the field tending the sheep. After being reminded that she was under oath, she “clarified” her statement to reflect that they had been out behind some barn having a smoke.

History has shown that of all authenticated apparitions, the Blessed Mother has not appeared to anyone in the midst of an unvirtuous activity. Because these were minor children, smoking was not a light matter. Lying to the bishop to protect one’s hide makes it even worse. As Bishop Zanic said, no one wanted to believe in the authenticity of Medjugorje more than he did. He was very Marian, having been many times to Fatima and Lourdes and as he once pointed out, what bishop would not want an authentic apparition in his diocese, if it coudl be proven.

People are innocently being led astray by their emotions, often driven by propoganda which, when digging in to details, often proves false. One such example is that of Fr. Jozo Zovko when he was invited to say Mass at the National Shrine in DC. Look how deceptive one major website is in only showing some of the information with supporters:

medugorje.com/misc/jozo.html

Now contrast that with the respectable job done by this pro-Medjugorje site to put out the truth even though it shows how wrong Fr. Jozo and the Franciscan Order is with regards to his status. Read the full page all the way to the bottom. This website, seeking truth, is still waiting for an answer to a valid question they posed to Fr. Slavko Soldo, provincial of Fr. Jozo’s order.

medjugorjecenter.org/maillist/archivemsg.php?n=114

While I disagree with the promotion of Medjugorje done on this last site, I completely respect the job they have done in putting out the full gamut.

The former web site also acknowledges (next to the “saintly-like” photo of Fr. Jozo) that he travels around spreading the messages of Medjugorje. This is a Franciscan priest who took a vow of obedience, who is violating a 1985 directive from the Bishop of Mostar-Duvno to cease publication and spread of “messages” attributed to the “gospa of Medjugorje”. Not only are the messages being provided through an act of disobedience on the part of seers, they are being spread in an act of disobedience.

This flies in the face of what we know about obedience tests which showed the extraordinary levels of virtue in people like St. Pio, St. Faustina, St. Bernadette, among many others. The Obedience test is one of the most common parts of any serious discernment process because Satan is incapable of obedience and God graces those whom he chooses to have heavenly visions to obey.
 
nkelly said:
Could I ask the supporters of Medjugorje if they have read Michael
Davies book as Lux suggested? It’s freely available at:
Interesting that so much argumentation to expose Medjugorje as a global hoax (or diabolical in origin) by con-Mej folks on this thread exclusively hinges on this one person’s crafted construction and interpretation. Interesting that Michael Davies seems to understand and know what the good Shepherds and proper and competent Church officials are missing. Sounds more than suspect (as in fishy) to the disinterested (objective) observer.

I am always suspect when a certain group of folks repeatidly insist that “YOU NEED TO READ (this book/article/commentary …) …TO REALLY UNDERSTAND WHAT IS HAPPENDING HERE” by one author who crafts a sophisticated synthesis and theory by intermixing official documents with commentary and personal interpretation. I am not taking the bait. I will prudently bypass this guy’s conspiracy theory and stick with official Church documents and await any forthcoming official declaration/condemnation by proper Church authority.

For anyone interested, I found this compliation of relevent official documents (while perusing a previous Mej thread) that offfers the facts/documents without commentary:
members.tripod.com/~chonak/documents/medj_index.html
 
nkelly said:
it’s well known that the devil can appear as an angel of light.
I don’t need to go to Medjugorje and I never will! All the rules of
discernment (heresy, obedience etc) all point to it’s being false!
Please inform yourself:
Mystical Phenomena.
The presence of remarkable phenomena is for many sufficient evidence of the validity of an alleged apparition. For others the judgment by local Church authority that there is no evidence of supernaturality at a site suggests fraud, mental illness or the demonic. The Church for her part, however, takes great care before affirming the certain supernaturality or non-supernaturality of phenomena, as the Roman statements given above show. There are likewise few examples of outright condemnation. When they do occur it is usually on the basis of doctrine which is contrary to the faith.

Since both good and evil spirits possess the angelic nature the presence of such phenomena alone is an equivocal sign of authenticity. This means that a great deal of unexplained phenomena can occur without indicating positively that the event is from God. This is why the Church looks, among other things, for evident supernaturality, that is, for effects beyond the ability of men or angels which can be attributed to God alone.

Answered by Colin B. Donovan, STL

Colin Donovan is Vice President for Theology at EWTN. A layman, he has the Licentiate in Sacred Theology, with a specialization in moral theology, from the Pontifical University of St. Thomas Aquinas (Angelicum) in Rome, where he wrote on the Donation of the Spouses in Marriage. He earned the BTh from the Seminary of Christ the King in Mission, BC, Canada and the BA in Biological Science from Northwestern University, Evanston, IL. Prior to coming to EWTN in 1995, he taught Theology at Aquinas College in Nashville.
ewtn.com/expert/answers/medjugorje.htm
People keep missing the point! People are going on pilgrimages to Medjugorje despite the prohibition by the bishops.
Mis-use and abuses, or others misperception and presumptions, in no way contributes to or detracts from the status of these alleged apparitions. This is what the proper Church authority has declared pertinent to “pilgrimages” to Medjugorje:
May 1998: CDF letter by Archbishop Tarcisio Bertone
(Secretary to the “Congregatio”, presided over by Cardinal Ratzinger) to Bp. Aubry
26 May 1998
Excellency,
By letter of 1 January 1998, you submitted to this Dicastery various **questions concerning the position of the Holy See and of the Bishop of Mostar on the subject **
of the alleged “apparitions” of Medjugorje, private pilgrimages, and the pastoral care of the faithful who go to that place.

What His Excellency Msgr. Peric stated in a letter to the General Secretary of “Famille Chrétienne”, in which he declared: “My conviction and position is not only ‘non constat de supernaturalitate’, but even this: ‘constat de non supernaturalitate’ of the apparitions or revelations of Medjugorje”, must be considered the expression of a personal conviction of the Bishop of Mostar, who, as Ordinary of the place, always has the right to express what is, and remains, an opinion which is his personally.

Finally, concerning pilgrimages to Medjugorje which take place in a private manner, this Congregation holds that they are permitted, on the condition that they not be considered a validation of events in progress and which still call for examination by the Church.
Medjugorje is splitting the Church! Why can’t people see this!???
This is a vast over statement. It is exactly this type of inflamatory rhetoric which gives me pause to consider the impassioned preoccupation and singleminded agenda of so many con/anti-Mej
folks. I want to simply say: Calm down. The Church really is founded on the rock foundation of Jesus Christ,God is in control, and gates of hell will not prevail against the Church. Any alleged, not yet approved or condemned apparition, should not be such a make or break component of one’s faith.
 
Lux_et_veritas said:
Setter, Irishgal
To Cardinal Schonborn’s letter, I say that he, like any other priest or bishop is entitled to his personal opinion and that letter remains his personal opinion. Does this sound familiar
?

Cardinal Schonborn does not have jurisdiction over Medjugorje. Bishop Peric does.
Yours is a distorted presentation. Let me clarify: Cardinal Schonborn is offering clarification to the Flock as is proper to his office regarding “The letter of Archbishop Bertone to the Bishop of Le Reunion sufficiently makes clear what has always been the official position of the hierarchy during recent years concerning Medjugorje: namely, that it knowingly leaves the matter undecided.” He is not offering interpretation, extrapolation or speculation, i.e., not his personal opinion. Beyond this clarification, he does go on to express personal sentiment that is independent of his clarification of the official Church position.

This statement by Cardinal Schonborn is unlike those of Bishop Peric that exceed the official investigation and declaration of his jurisdiction. The attempts by con-Mej folks to falsely cast an aurora/cloud of suspicion over a competent and credible shepherd of the Church comes across as unbecoming and uncharitable.
Cardinal Schonborn, the Archbishop of Vienna, who gave the Holy Father and his Papal Household their 1998 Lenten Retreat (and who was head of the church’s commission responsible for the “Catechism of the Catholic Church”), gave the preceeding testimony in Lourdes on July 18, 1998. The Cardinal’s words were published in “Medjugorje Gebetsakion”, #50, and in “Stella Maris”, #343, pp. 19, 20
.
You can post all you want from Laurentin and Rupcic as well. They do not have jurisdiction over Medjugorje.
You appear to be struggling with making a clear distinction between official documents and declarations, clarification by *competent and credible * Church sources/hierachy, and the realm of personal opinion. As I get up to speed more on this Mejugorje approval stuff, I can see how to blur the distinction is but a way to win favor for one’s personal belief/preference/cause on a not yet approved or condemned apparition.
With regards to Unity Publishing:
Anything I have pasted from there has been copies of letters, just like the one pasted above from Cardinal Schonborn, which does not link to any place. One thing I’ve learned about avid Medjugorje defenders: Discredit anything at all that comes from the Unity Publishing website, even though all that I have posted from the site can be found on other websites because they are public record from the Holy See or elsewhere.
Michael Davies does not come out quite so squeaky clean from association with those fanatical fringe groups attempting to bash Medjugorje as you present and would have us believe:
.Rick Salbato, head of the San Jose-based Unity Publishing, Inc, is a fierce critic of Medjugorje. He has joined forces with Philip Kronzer to expose the “deception” of Medjurgorje through literature and videos. Kronzer, a successful businessman with $12 million in assets, has produced two videos on the Medjugorje apparitions, …The videos, “Visions on Demand” and “Divine or Deceived?”,
were filmed on location in Medjugorje and Rome and feature such well-known Catholic authors and Medjugorje critics as **Michael Davies ** and E. Michael Jones, editor of the Catholic journal, Fidelity. “Visions on Demand” portrays the Medjurgorje apparitions as a font of lies and disobedience to Church authority, while “Divine or Deceived?” attempts to show the Marian center as a cover for an immense money smuggling operation.
sffaith.com/ed/articles/1998/1198cz.htm
I have done the same with **the Michael Davies book **
and have repeated many times that if one were to strip the commentary out of the book, it would remain half full with diocesan, vatican, and religious order documents. Included are full length transcripts of audio interviews which were truncated by Laurentin. When one looks at the entire transcript, without it having been sanitized in the manner that it was, it reveals something quite negative. An example can be found somewhere in this thread so i am not going to repeat it. People are going to have to take the time to read and find it.
I will await the non-commentary, no interpretation book edition with all the official declarations, documents and competent and credible statements. Again, I get the real sense of pulling for straws to cast the cloud of irrepute over these alleged apparitions – " …it reveals something quite negative".
 
I can’t help but put my 2 cents in on this discussion, because I have been to Medjugorje and would have to say that my faith was transformed to another level from going there. If the apparitions are as the OP has stated “diabolical” Evil is doing a poor job of moving people away from God and into sin! The reverse I believe is true.

ALthough I do have my own opinion on whether or not Our Lady of Peace is appearing in Medjugorje I have the utmost respect and will be obedient to the Church when they finally make a decision on Medjugorje.

We know that Pope John Paul II saw Medjugorje in a positive light stressing the fact that if he was not the pope he would go there!

The Church can not and will not rush into any decision about these apparitions and I would not think that we would see a decision made until the apparitions are said to have stopped.

AS for juridiction, (My understanding) this was taken from the Bishop of Mostar (by the Vatican) and put into the hands of a commitee of Bishops who are still deliberating upon this issue.

Although this site has not been approved I have not seen any declarations from the church that disapproves of the apparitions. So what is all the fuss.

I just read an interesting article on this very topic this morning so I would like to share this with all of you if the link I provide will work.

God Bless
 
"Pro-Medjugorje websites do not provide details of the “fued”. They only provide loose accusations about the Bishop being wrongly motivated, which is highly calumnous and downright sinful in the way it leads people to believe he is a bad bishop. "

Can you please provide links or information to these accusations you speak of. Thank you.

From everyhting I have read and seen I have never been given the impression that The Bishop of Mostar is a bad bishop! At most is the information I recieved when I was in Medjugorje that the discernment and jurisdiction of this site was given to a committee of bishops and taken away from the Bishop by the vatican!

Such actions do not come from God. Deception comes only from the Angel of Deception! Your post illustrates perfectly just how well the cult of Medjugorje defenders are causing people to attack the apostolic successor of Mostar-Duvno, which is an attack on the Church itself.

Pardon me for saying such but the venom you speak about he people that have a positive view towards medjugorje as “The Cult of Medjugorje” sounds more from the angel of deception than what I have seen at Medjugorje. The only thing I have seen come from this site is a stronger conection to the church thereby having a stronger connection to Christ himmself.

I would suggest you listen to the church and wait and see what they finally decide. THis may take some patience of course as it has been 25 years in discernmant already!

Peace! 👍
 
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Lux_et_veritas:
Michael Davies was the head of Una Voce International. So…? I’ve had other Medjugorje supporters attempt to discredit Michael Davies because he was the head of Una Voce. Perhaps this was not intended, but the emphasis on Michael Davies and Una Voce seemed to point in this direction in the above posts where it is raised. … Look what the former Cardinal Ratzinger says about it:
Please reread my source citation sequence in post# 340. I was simply showing the link that Unity press makes with the legitmate organization Una Voce of which Michael Davies was president of Una Voce International.
Una Voce, Defending our Traditions in a Legal and Orthodox Way, Which Unity Publishing Supports. Its current International President is Mr. Michael Davies of London, England.
[Una Voce+Unity Publishing+Michael Davies](Una Voce+Unity Publishing+Michael Davies)

A click on the link brings one to this page:
Defending our Traditions in a Legal and Orthodox Way
Which Unity Publishing Supports
THUMBS UP FOR UNA VOCE
“The International Una Voce Federation has played an important role in supporting the use of the 1962 edition of the Roman Missal in obedience to the directives of the Holy See. For this valuable service I express my gratitude to the members of the Federation and extend my blessing.” Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, Prefect of the Congregation of the Doctrine of the Faith, speaking to the Una Voce Federation, 25 July 1996
BTW – Has Michael Davies ever made a written disclaimer to distance himself from this wacked-out, totally out of the right field, fringe group Unity Press? This would go a long way to clear up any misconceptions and appearance of impropriety on his part.
 
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setter:
BTW – Has Michael Davies ever made a written disclaimer to distance himself from this wacked-out, totally out of the right field, fringe group Unity Press? This would go a long way to clear up any misconceptions and appearance of impropriety on his part.
What motivates this accusations towards this group? I glanced quickly through the home page and did not see anything outright unexceptable.

Are they not in union with the Holy See?

Peace! 👍
 
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