Mega-Church Pastor's and Usher's carry side arms?!

[CentralFLJames]

I have a Protestant friend who goes to one of those popular non-denom “Mega” “Bible Only” Churches that have the new “one stop shop” sort of integrated life and worship concepts (child care, lunch cafeteria, school, shopping etc.). This particular one is of the “Calvary Chapel” franchise super-church variety.

My friend is very fundamentalist and a "black-and-white sort of guy who does not believe anything unless he personally researches it and finds it in scripture - a “sola scripturist”. Recently he got into a shouting match with the pastor over a huge disagreement over a scripture interpretation about who has the authority to “lay on of hands”. I don’t know all the details. But in the middle of the sermon my friend stood up and asked the good pastor to elaborate on an contradiction he believed he found in scripture. And the good pastor tried to shut him up and told him he had to go to bible-school at another time to learn about this. But my friend persisted and kept embarrassing the pastor with contradictory scripture. Finally the good pastor called for his physical dismissal and the ushers ran over and lifted him out of his seat and dragged him out of the church and rough handled him.

During the scuffle one of the “ushers” coats opened up and my friend told me he saw a glock 9mm pistol holstered in a shoulder- holster and feared for his life since the usher was losing his temper and abusing him and trying to shut him up. A week or so later they made a public statement that my friend was “excommunicated” for being disruptive to the proper teaching and promulgation of the Word of God and gross apostasy. He is shell shocked and thinking about suing the good pastor and his henchmen. He later found out from someone else who had a run in with the good pastor that the pastor also carries a side-arm and all the ushers are hired body guards on permanent payroll and licensed to carry concealed weapons and do so in in the presence of families and small children!

**My question is what do Protestants think about worshiping in these mega churches if they knew that most all of the ushers carried deadly firearms? Does this sound Christian? **

My other question is do others feel that these mega non-demon churches are truly open to discussion of God’s Word without dissentors fearing of being intimidated or excommunicated for contradicting the pastor?

James

 

[JudieK]

Ahhh… James… you have articulated the major problem with Protestantism. The truth is anyone’s own interpretation, and usually, the PASTOR’S interpretation. If you don’t agree, then I guess you either just accept that his opinion is as valid as yours, or you change churches. ( I thank God that He brought me into the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church!!) I think it was rude of your friend to get up in the middle of a service and contradict his pastor… it would have been far better for him to approach him privately or in a Bible study and ask him in a much more non-obnoxious way. Since it seems he was “attacking” the pastor- since he was almost a “heckler” and a disruption at that point, I understand why he would be removed. Of course he should not have been abused, and if he was going peacefully, there would have been no reason to. As far as the guns… it’s hard to say. I hear teachers are carrying guns in the classroom these days in some schools. Of course, I wouldn’t want my priest to be packing heat, but some of these mega-church pastors are almost celebrities. Since the Christian message isn’t always popular, it is a real possibility that some whack-job could come in as a worshipper and open fire or something. I like the thought of just trusting God to keep us safe in His house, but the world we live in is dangerous. I know that in the large mega-church that I started my Christian walk, the ushers were all off-duty cops. They were probably carrying weapons, too- I just never knew it. Anyway… encourage your friend to check out the Catholic church…

 

[mercygate]

I have a Protestant friend who goes to one of those popular non-denom “Mega” “Bible Only” Churches that have the new “one stop shop” sort of integrated life and worship concepts (child care, lunch cafeteria, school, shopping etc.). This particular one is of the “Calvary Chapel” franchise super-church variety.

My friend is very fundamentalist and a "black-and-white sort of guy who does not believe anything unless he personally researches it and finds it in scripture - a “sola scripturist”. Recently he got into a shouting match with the pastor over a huge disagreement over a scripture interpretation about who has the authority to “lay on of hands”. I don’t know all the details. But in the middle of the sermon my friend stood up and asked the good pastor to elaborate on an contradiction he believed he found in scripture. And the good pastor tried to shut him up and told him he had to go to bible-school at another time to learn about this. But my friend persisted and kept embarrassing the pastor with contradictory scripture. Finally the good pastor called for his physical dismissal and the ushers ran over and lifted him out of his seat and dragged him out of the church and rough handled him.

During the scuffle one of the “ushers” coats opened up and my friend told me he saw a glock 9mm pistol holstered in a shoulder- holster and feared for his life since the usher was losing his temper and abusing him and trying to shut him up. A week or so later they made a public statement that my friend was “excommunicated” for being disruptive to the proper teaching and promulgation of the Word of God and gross apostasy. He is shell shocked and thinking about suing the good pastor and his henchmen. He later found out from someone else who had a run in with the good pastor that the pastor also carries a side-arm and all the ushers are hired body guards on permanent payroll and licensed to carry concealed weapons and do so in in the presence of families and small children!

**My question is what do Protestants think about worshiping in these mega churches if they knew that most all of the ushers carried deadly firearms? Does this sound Christian? **

My other question is do others feel that these mega non-demon churches are truly open to discussion of God’s Word without dissentors fearing of being intimidated or excommunicated for contradicting the pastor?

James

Somebody who acted like your friend during a service deserves to be tossed out of any worship service. If this happened, and if he wants to challenge the pastor, he should do it in another forum. Your friend sounds like someone who needs “attention.”

He is hardly in a position to be criticizing the ushers or the pastor for their firearms. Good grief. The described behavior of your friend makes his testimony hard to believe.

Do you think someone who did this in a Catholic Church on a Sunday morning would be allowed to engage in a debate with the pastor?

 

[Laurie_86]

As a converting Catholic and once attender of a Mega church I understand both the appeal and the danger.

Like JudieK said the biggest danger is the pastor can interpret the scripture however they like. This has happened the church I attended. There was a huge debate over speaking in tongues in public and the church completely divided in half as a result! My friend currently goes to a “Christian” church where they believe any ailment from allergies to cancer is a result of fear and not trusting God enough! I was shocked that Christians could fall into such a belief that if you trust God enough you will be cured! While I believe God can chose to heal I also know there are many instances in the Bible where believers went through trials and God did not heal them.

The appeal to mega churches is the idea of such a large community of believers. I know at my church it became a status symbol to go there. There is a huge mega church near me that has a school, a bookstore, coffee shop, lunch, and so much more to where it literally becomes a place where life happens and a business at the same time. Big churches have a lot to offer yes, but I know personally I lost a sense of connection at my church.

My church did have off-duty police officers who would direct traffic and also protect people if necessary. In this day and age I was actually glad to have them there because of the recent shootings at churches. As far as I know the ushers didn’t have concealed weapons…but this is Texas and a lot of people carry concealed weapons anyways. I think if people are unaware the ushers are carrying guns it could be a scary experience and it would be better represented as a security officer or off-duty officer instead of concealing it in my opinion.

 

[Mystic_Warrior]

Somebody who acted like your friend during a service deserves to be tossed out of any worship service. If this happened, and if he wants to challenge the pastor, he should do it in another forum. Your friend sounds like someone who needs “attention.”

He is hardly in a position to be criticizing the ushers or the pastor for their firearms. Good grief. The described behavior of your friend makes his testimony hard to believe.

Do you think someone who did this in a Catholic Church on a Sunday morning would be allowed to engage in a debate with the pastor?

I second Mercygate’s criticisms. And I might add that it’s not believable that they would carry firearms in the church. It’s possible, but highly unlikely. I’ve never heard of this happening ever, nor have I experienced this myself and I’ve been protestant all my life. Been to lots of different churches and denominations. Never seen this.

The man should’ve consulted the pastor privately. This whole thing could’ve been averted. If he wanted to accuse the pastor of teaching error in the church, he should go to the pastor first, then to the deacons and file a complaint.

Peace…

MW

 

[allischalmers]

Why are people trying to make this about Protestant Bible interpertation. Seem some people will use anything to jump on Protestents.
I thought it was about someone being unruly in a worship service

 

[BlestOne]

Why are people trying to make this about Protestant Bible interpertation. Seem some people will use anything to jump on Protestents.
I thought it was about someone being unruly in a worship service

Please don’t take offense, but I think perhaps you are getting a bit sensitive… I saw it as a question about behaviors and practices in a MegaChurch. I think for some of us cradle Catholics this is an interesting phenomena.

We generally do not understand the whole MegaChurch concept. I mean… gift shop, coffee shop, Church, all in one??? Most of us older Catholics grew up with a set routine on Sundays as a kid… whether it was mass, then Dennys or as in my family… mass then the farm market to pick up fresh made doughnuts and a Sunday paper then home to make a big meal… and eat in the dining room.

The other part is what we would do if someone did that during the mass… wow! I would be seriously upset. I do think that someone who interrupts a service ought to be asked and made to leave so that others can worship.

I don’t see this as anything about Protestant interpretation at all… but maybe that is just me… I just know I would be horrified if somebody did this somewhere I was worshiping. I agree with Mercygate and Mystic Warrior… public forum is not the way to go and how do we know that this guy is believable after how he disrupted worship? To me, a person that willingly disrupts services is not exactly in the best frame of mind to relay accurate information about events pertaining to him.

 

[CentralFLJames]

Let me clarify a few things.

1. The central issue here is "do you think pastors and ushers in any church should be toting firearms without a public disclosure or warning in the lobby? I could be wrong but I think most families would be outraged to know that their families were in “Christian” places of peaceful worship and assemblies where ushers and pastors carried concealed deadly weapons. Its a matter of principal and consistency with Christian virtues.
2. Another issue is was it appropriate for the pastor to escalate the situation simply because a person questioned his interpretation of scripture? I honestly don’t know what the format or convention is in these forums. I imagined that this was not a true worship service with singing and bible reading and testimony and traditional protestant altar calls but just an open session where the pastor was giving his teaching and probably rhetorically asking “do you agree brothers?” and “what does your bible say”?. You know how this is - the person is not really expecting a reply. It’s rhetorical. But I think my friend just stood up, perhaps naively or trusting in the face value sincerity of the question to state he could not agree without understanding the contradictions he knew of. At any rate my friend is not hostile just persistent (and extremely intelligent) with his questions when he feels he is right. From what I can tell the pastor “flew over the top” that somone would stand up and ask him a question he was not prepared to be asked and embarrassed himself and flew into a rage himself.
3. The other issue not mainline to the intention of the OP is if there a way for constructive dissension or disagreement in a mega-church that has many different Protestant faith members all co-gathered or must one leave and shop around if they don’t agree with the pastor or if the pastor can not keep it all together.

Since I don’t know the exact scenario let’s just assume that it was a misunderstanding and the pastor was too quick to call security on him out of embarrassment rather than asking him to sit and talk to him later about it. This was at least the 2nd time this sort of thing has happened with this pastor. The pastor seems to have a tarnished reputation for being a hot head himself.

Was it right for the pastor to escalate the situation into a possible deadly confrontation with firearms present? My friend was unarmed and not agitated until the pastor start shouting at him when others in the audience started openly cross talking among themselves - some agreeing others disagreeing. I think the pastor was losing control of the audience and just lost it.

My own opinion is that its very wrong for firearms to be present in a church or assembly and people are blind to the risks that they could be in a deadly confrontation if somone did not handle themselves properly while all present are just there to talk about God. Seems sad and ironic to me.

James

 

[JonathanEdwards]

I have a Protestant friend who goes to one of those popular non-denom “Mega” “Bible Only” Churches that have the new “one stop shop” sort of integrated life and worship concepts (child care, lunch cafeteria, school, shopping etc.). This particular one is of the “Calvary Chapel” franchise super-church variety.

My friend is very fundamentalist and a "black-and-white sort of guy who does not believe anything unless he personally researches it and finds it in scripture - a “sola scripturist”. Recently he got into a shouting match with the pastor over a huge disagreement over a scripture interpretation about who has the authority to “lay on of hands”. I don’t know all the details. But in the middle of the sermon my friend stood up and asked the good pastor to elaborate on an contradiction he believed he found in scripture. And the good pastor tried to shut him up and told him he had to go to bible-school at another time to learn about this. But my friend persisted and kept embarrassing the pastor with contradictory scripture. Finally the good pastor called for his physical dismissal and the ushers ran over and lifted him out of his seat and dragged him out of the church and rough handled him.

During the scuffle one of the “ushers” coats opened up and my friend told me he saw a glock 9mm pistol holstered in a shoulder- holster and feared for his life since the usher was losing his temper and abusing him and trying to shut him up. A week or so later they made a public statement that my friend was “excommunicated” for being disruptive to the proper teaching and promulgation of the Word of God and gross apostasy. He is shell shocked and thinking about suing the good pastor and his henchmen. He later found out from someone else who had a run in with the good pastor that the pastor also carries a side-arm and all the ushers are hired body guards on permanent payroll and licensed to carry concealed weapons and do so in in the presence of families and small children!

**My question is what do Protestants think about worshiping in these mega churches if they knew that most all of the ushers carried deadly firearms? Does this sound Christian? **

My other question is do others feel that these mega non-demon churches are truly open to discussion of God’s Word without dissentors fearing of being intimidated or excommunicated for contradicting the pastor?

James

And the name of this church is…?

My question is what do Protestants think about worshiping in these mega churches if they knew that most all of the ushers carried deadly firearms? Does this sound Christian?

I think it’s great. I’m a lifetime member of the NRA, as well as the holder of a CC permit and I have no problem with pastors and ushers being able to protect the congregation.

My other question is do others feel that these mega non-demon churches are truly open to discussion of God’s Word without dissentors fearing of being intimidated or excommunicated for contradicting the pastor?

If your story were true, then why wouldn’t your friend take his grievance to the CCOF, the governing body that oversees the Calvary Chapel denomination?

 

[CentralFLJames]

And the name of this church is…?

I think it’s great. I’m a lifetime member of the NRA, as well as the holder of a CC permit and I have no problem with pastors and ushers being able to protect the congregation.

If your story were true, then why wouldn’t your friend take his grievance to the CCOF, the governing body that oversees the Calvary Chapel denomination?

1. I am simply not going to give the city nor the state of this Calvary Chapel Church since this could get back to hurt my friend. As this story develops I am more inclined now to think this pastor is a common thug hiding behind the cloth so to speak. There are other indications coming out of very odd things going on that I won’t get into. There could be some kind of (presumably unsanctioned) racketeering going on - enough said. If you don’t believe this to be a true account that is your prerogative I could care less. Take it as a hypothetical case then. Would you feel comfortable bringing your family into a church where the ushers who are not even probably members at the church are gun toting body guards?
2. You say you are a Concealed Weapons Permit holder. Frankly, so am I since I have a reason to be. But out of respect I would NEVER bring a firearm into a church - not even a ceremonial sword (which certain Naval officers, unique among the services and Knights of Columbus are permitted to wield in Church). You would not happen to be one of these Calvary body guards would you?
3. My friend was so distraught over the escalation of the situation and so intimidated by it and his reputation trashed that its a wonder he even wants to remain a Christian anymore. He and some friends get together now and then just for emotional support since its really upset his family and effecting his marriage and job and everything. This was a hard headed but a decent man who was ex-special forces - not easily intimidated.

James

 

[JonathanEdwards]

1. I am simply not going to give the city nor the state of this Calvary Chapel Church since this could get back to hurt my friend.

LOL…Of course you’re not.

As this story develops I am more inclined now to think this pastor is a common thug hiding behind the cloth so to speak.

And I’m inclined to think that you’re a troll, out to demonize non-Catholics and hiding behind an imaginary “friend”.

Would you feel comfortable bringing your family into a church where the ushers who are not even probably members at the church are gun toting body guards?

1. You say you are a Concealed Weapons Permit holder. Frankly, so am I since I have a reason to be. But out of respect I would NEVER bring a firearm into a church

Out of respect for whom?

1. My friend was so distraught over the escalation of the situation and so intimidated by it and his reputation trashed that its a wonder he even wants to remain a Christian anymore.

I didn’t realize imaginary people became distraught.

He and some friends get together now and then just for emotional support since its really upset his family and effecting his marriage and job and everything. This was a hard headed but a decent man who was ex-special forces - not easily intimidated.

I see. He’s not easily intimidated, but he’s too afraid to go to the CCOF so that, if nothing else, if this fantastic story were true, the pastor would be removed and could not continue his reign of terror?

He’s not easily intimidated, but you’re so afraid for your imaginary friend that you’re afraid to tell us where this took place because you’re afraid it would be used against him, even though thousands of people already know about it?

Finally, you claimed that your Calvary Chapel attending friend is “very fundamenalist”. So, why would a “very fundamentalist” be going to a charismatic church when fundamentalists believe that the charismatic gifts are Unbiblical?

Seriously, do you really not see why your story sounds so stupid?

 

[BlestOne]

LOL…Of course you’re not.

And I’m inclined to think that you’re a troll, out to demonize non-Catholics and hiding behind an imaginary “friend”.

Out of respect for whom?

I didn’t realize imaginary people became distraught.

I see. He’s not easily intimidated, but he’s too afraid to go to the CCOF so that, if nothing else, if this fantastic story were true, the pastor would be removed and could not continue his reign of terror?

He’s not easily intimidated, but you’re so afraid for your imaginary friend that you’re afraid to tell us where this took place because you’re afraid it would be used against him, even though thousands of people already know about it?

Seriously, do you really not see why your story sounds so stupid?

Umm… trolls never make it anywhere near 2000 posts… I think you owe James an apology for this…

 

[Mystic_Warrior]

Let me clarify a few things.

1. The central issue here is "do you think pastors and ushers in any church should be toting firearms without a public disclosure or warning in the lobby? I could be wrong but I think most families would be outraged to know that their families were in “Christian” places of peaceful worship and assemblies where ushers and pastors carried concealed deadly weapons. Its a matter of principal and consistency with Christian virtues.

No, I don’t think firearms should be allowed inside the church building at all. Outside? Maybe. But, if there was really a security issue, such as bomb threats, threats of violence, etc. then the police should be the ones to guard the assembly outside the building. I would not attend a church where this takes place on a regular basis if it’s for no apparent reason.

1. Another issue is was it appropriate for the pastor to escalate the situation simply because a person questioned his interpretation of scripture? I honestly don’t know what the format or convention is in these forums. I imagined that this was not a true worship service with singing and bible reading and testimony and traditional protestant altar calls but just an open session where the pastor was giving his teaching and probably rhetorically asking “do you agree brothers?” and “what does your bible say”?. You know how this is - the person is not really expecting a reply. It’s rhetorical. But I think my friend just stood up, perhaps naively or trusting in the face value sincerity of the question to state he could not agree without understanding the contradictions he knew of. At any rate my friend is not hostile just persistent (and extremely intelligent) with his questions when he feels he is right. From what I can tell the pastor “flew over the top” that somone would stand up and ask him a question he was not prepared to be asked and embarrassed himself and flew into a rage himself.

I guess we don’t know what kind of assembly this was, at least according to your post. Generally, there is never a time when it’s an “open forum” for the whole assembly to discuss doctrine, etc. That is usually done in the Sunday school hour in smaller groups. There is sometimes open voting on some issues, but it’s held outside the normal worship hour.

So, we’re going on hypotheticals it appears. IF this was a worship service and the pastor was preaching, then the gentleman (your friend) would have to be excused. My pastor in Georgia would never allow someone to interrupt the service either. However, IF this was an open voting or other special occasion, then your friend should’ve been allowed to speak.

We weren’t there, so it’s hard to say who escalated what, to be honest. I know you want to believe your friend’s account of what happened, but neither of us really know. It’s obvious that it got out of hand, that’s for sure. Perhaps both men are to blame? I don’t know.

1. The other issue not mainline to the intention of the OP is if there a way for constructive dissension or disagreement in a mega-church that has many different Protestant faith members all co-gathered or must one leave and shop around if they don’t agree with the pastor or if the pastor can not keep it all together.

Well, generally, only at deacon meetings and special sessions can there be an open debate. For example, a special deacons meeting was called some years ago to discuss the new movement within the church toward the use of charismatic gifts. The pastor was open to this and started allowing such things. The deacons didn’t like it one bit. All members were allowed to come to the meeting to discuss what to do with the pastor.

I personally went and was ashamed at how our deacons treated our pastor. He was released from the pastorate and I took my “business” elsewhere. So to answer this - yes, there are special times and it’s always hosted by deacons of the church. They are the ruling body whose responsibility it is to abide by the by-laws of the church and bring order to the church. The pastor is the leader and can be removed. It actually resembles a corporation in structure. You know - congregationalism.

Since I don’t know the exact scenario let’s just assume that it was a misunderstanding and the pastor was too quick to call security on him out of embarrassment rather than asking him to sit and talk to him later about it. This was at least the 2nd time this sort of thing has happened with this pastor. The pastor seems to have a tarnished reputation for being a hot head himself.

Was it right for the pastor to escalate the situation into a possible deadly confrontation with firearms present? My friend was unarmed and not agitated until the pastor start shouting at him when others in the audience started openly cross talking among themselves - some agreeing others disagreeing. I think the pastor was losing control of the audience and just lost it.

My own opinion is that its very wrong for firearms to be present in a church or assembly and people are blind to the risks that they could be in a deadly confrontation if somone did not handle themselves properly while all present are just there to talk about God. Seems sad and ironic to me.

James

James, I think I’ve covered everything. It definitely was an unfortunate event. I would think that the deacons would have to get involved here. The pastor should not have the right to excommunicate anyone - period. That’s reserved for deacons with the majority vote of the congregation.

Peace…

MW

 

[CentralFLJames]

LOL…Of course you’re not.

And I’m inclined to think that you’re a troll, out to demonize non-Catholics and hiding behind an imaginary “friend”.

Out of respect for whom?

I didn’t realize imaginary people became distraught.

I see. He’s not easily intimidated, but he’s too afraid to go to the CCOF so that, if nothing else, if this fantastic story were true, the pastor would be removed and could not continue his reign of terror?

He’s not easily intimidated, but you’re so afraid for your imaginary friend that you’re afraid to tell us where this took place because you’re afraid it would be used against him, even though thousands of people already know about it?

Finally, you claimed that your Calvary Chapel attending friend is “very fundamenalist”. So, why would a “very fundamentalist” be going to a charismatic church when fundamentalists believe that the charismatic gifts are Unbiblical?

Seriously, do you really not see why your story sounds so stupid?

I was actually just trying to get a simple straight answer if anyone thinks its appropriate to be carrying fire arms in church without disclosing it to the congregation. I perhaps could have taken out the background information and left it generic but I thought it was important to leave in since it shows what can happen when things are escalated through misunderstandings.

Be honest. What would you do if your reputation was totally destroyed in front of your friends? Would you really want to stay around a church where some council cleared you of wrong doing and a public apology was given? No, of course not. The embarrassment is going to linger. People will still remember “the incident with you know who”. Besides I think he did go to one of the local subconcils prior to this event about another issue on why he was rejected as a elder (or whatever they call it there) and they shot him down. That prior event may have been been why the pastor was so quick to unload on him over a relatively minor incident since he had a preexisting personal issue with him.

I don’t think its fair for you to judge what was in my friends heart. He was a very sincere individual just very scripturally oriented. He followed one of his other friends there and was under the impression that it was non-denominational and that is why he was there since he doesn’t like hiearchy. I think this particular assembly has a day or two each week devoted to open bible preaching for all denoms - that may account for why there is a mix of evangelical and fundamentalist (and why the need for the firearms ).

Oh, I just noticed you got yourself banned. I must have missed some inflammatory comments that got deleted. At least here no one had a concealed gun to pull on you.

James

 

[fbl9]

at least this is one thing we up in the great white north don’t have worry about no i don’t think it is right for anyone in a church to be armed with a dealy weapon…if an assembly of christians were to be attacked violently because they are christians the right to self defense i think is not appliciable…that said however if they were attacked because they were to be robbed,because they had money then self defense is justified…

 

[khutcheson]

1. But out of respect I would NEVER bring a firearm into a church - not even a ceremonial sword (which certain Naval officers, unique among the services and Knights of Columbus are permitted to wield in Church).

Uh, unique among the services? Last time I looked, Marine Officers carred swords.

 

[CentralFLJames]

Uh, unique among the services? Last time I looked, Marine Officers carred swords.

It’s not all that relevant to this OP but I meant that there is a certain subtle sword etiquette within the military services in relationship to places of worship. If I recall the etiquette the army could no unsheathe its sabres or swords in the church but the navy officers could. Marines, being an integrally attached unit to the navy probably follow the naval etiquette. The Catholic Church has its own unique eccleasial traditions as well. That’s all.

The idea I was expounding on is one of general extension of respect to the sanctity of the church, the congregational safety and wellfare and reverence to the holy sacrament present in the tabernacle. In Protestant churches of course there is no sacred sacrement present but the concept still shoud naturally extend to reverencing the presence of Christ in each person gathered in His name in ecclesial community prayer and the promotion of peaceful assembly.

James

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Please don’t take offense, but I think perhaps you are getting a bit sensitive… I saw it as a question about behaviors and practices in a MegaChurch. I think for some of us cradle Catholics this is an interesting phenomena.

We generally do not understand the whole MegaChurch concept. I mean… gift shop, coffee shop, Church, all in one???

There are cathedrals in the UK that have all this - some may even be Catholic.​

BTW, what is a “mega-demon” (see post 1) - a prince of demons ? It should be

Most of us older Catholics grew up with a set routine on Sundays as a kid… whether it was mass, then Dennys or as in my family… mass then the farm market to pick up fresh made doughnuts and a Sunday paper then home to make a big meal… and eat in the dining room.

The other part is what we would do if someone did that during the mass… wow! I would be seriously upset. I do think that someone who interrupts a service ought to be asked and made to leave so that others can worship.

I don’t see this as anything about Protestant interpretation at all… but maybe that is just me… I just know I would be horrified if somebody did this somewhere I was worshiping. I agree with Mercygate and Mystic Warrior… public forum is not the way to go and how do we know that this guy is believable after how he disrupted worship? To me, a person that willingly disrupts services is not exactly in the best frame of mind to relay accurate information about events pertaining to him.

 

[Pro_Domina]

I have a Protestant friend who goes to one of those popular non-denom “Mega” “Bible Only” Churches that have the new “one stop shop” sort of integrated life and worship concepts (child care, lunch cafeteria, school, shopping etc.). This particular one is of the “Calvary Chapel” franchise super-church variety.

My friend is very fundamentalist and a "black-and-white sort of guy who does not believe anything unless he personally researches it and finds it in scripture - a “sola scripturist”. Recently he got into a shouting match with the pastor over a huge disagreement over a scripture interpretation about who has the authority to “lay on of hands”. I don’t know all the details. But in the middle of the sermon my friend stood up and asked the good pastor to elaborate on an contradiction he believed he found in scripture. And the good pastor tried to shut him up and told him he had to go to bible-school at another time to learn about this. But my friend persisted and kept embarrassing the pastor with contradictory scripture. Finally the good pastor called for his physical dismissal and the ushers ran over and lifted him out of his seat and dragged him out of the church and rough handled him.

During the scuffle one of the “ushers” coats opened up and my friend told me he saw a glock 9mm pistol holstered in a shoulder- holster and feared for his life since the usher was losing his temper and abusing him and trying to shut him up. A week or so later they made a public statement that my friend was “excommunicated” for being disruptive to the proper teaching and promulgation of the Word of God and gross apostasy. He is shell shocked and thinking about suing the good pastor and his henchmen. He later found out from someone else who had a run in with the good pastor that the pastor also carries a side-arm and all the ushers are hired body guards on permanent payroll and licensed to carry concealed weapons and do so in in the presence of families and small children!

**My question is what do Protestants think about worshiping in these mega churches if they knew that most all of the ushers carried deadly firearms? Does this sound Christian? **

**My other question is do others feel that these mega non-***demon *****churches are truly open to discussion of God’s Word without dissentors fearing of being intimidated or excommunicated for contradicting the pastor?

James

Haha non-demon?!!

Good idea carrying a gun.

Catholics should do that since we are the most hated institution on Earth.

Which is a good sign.

Yes, we rank above the Federal Income Tax.

 

[jblake]

CentralFLJames;:

I was actually just trying to get a simple straight answer if anyone thinks its appropriate to be carrying fire arms in church without disclosing it to the congregation.

Then you should have just asked that question.

What would you do if your reputation was totally destroyed in front of your friends?

a) If, as claimed, the individual stood up and heckled/harangued the preacher during the sermon, then he was totally out of line;

b) If, as claimed, it was Calvary Chapel, and he had applied to be an elder, then he should also have known the history of that denomination, and the consequences of his alleged actions;

(Sidenote 1: I used to attend a congregation that had no qualms about interrupting the sermon, when they thought that the person delivering the sermon was getting unscriptural. They did not stand up and debate the issue. They simply started singing a hymn, and would continue singing hymns until that individual left the building.)

(Sidenote 2: The story details, as given, simply don’t add up. There are so many flaws in it, that it looks like it was constructed as a “thought experiment”, to “prove” a point.)

1. The central issue here is "do you think pastors and ushers in any church should be toting firearms without a public disclosure or warning in the lobby?

It all depends upon the circumstances that are involved in carrying the firearm — or any other weapon:

• Historically, in the United States, gun toting has been more common in Protestant churches than Catholic churches;
• Mega Churches do have a security detail. Carrying concealed weapons is not uncommon. (Typically, they are non-lethal. Typically, not everybody carries weapons.)

I could be wrong but I think most families would be outraged to know that their families were in “Christian” places of peaceful worship and assemblies where ushers and pastors carried concealed deadly weapons.

On a strictly personal level:

• Concealed weapons are much less distracting, than unconcealed weapons. (Uzi’s are less distracting than FN’s.);
• It is a given that some members of the congregation will be carrying concealed weapons. ( It doesn’t matter what denomination one is attending. Nor does it matter what part of the United States one is in.);
• In some neighbourhoods, not carrying personal weaponry is reckless behaviour, on the part of the individual. As such, I’d expect most, if not all, of the congregation to have concealed weapons;
• In some sub-cultures, carrying a weapon is de rigeur, and as such, most members of the congregation will have them, during a worship service;

I know of one church, where everybody is checked for weapons, when entering the property. (“Everybody” includes the preacher, the ushers, and the people who are checking for weapons.) (The church has an active ministry to gangs, and it is not uncommon for current members of rival gangs to attend the same function at that church. They also provide “safe route maps” to each gang in the area, and escorts for the gang members to attend their functions.)(IIRC, all weapons are confiscated, and then given to the local police department, along with the name of the individual who had the weapon.)

Its a matter of principal and consistency with Christian virtues.

Few people consistently live according to all the precepts given by Jesus the Christ.

1. Another issue is was it appropriate for the pastor to escalate the situation simply because a person questioned his interpretation of scripture? I honestly don’t know what the format or convention is in these forums.

The appropriate form, when one disagrees with the scriptural support of what the person is saying, depends upon the format and type of the “meeting”. Unless it was clearly stated to be a “give and take participatory discussion” then what was described is clearly inappropriate.

What was described appears to be heckling, and if the individual didn’t realize that, and further didn’t realize the consequences of that action, then…

1. The other issue not mainline to the intention of the OP is if there a way for constructive dissension or disagreement in a mega-church that has many different Protestant faith members all co-gathered or must one leave and shop around if they don’t agree with the pastor or if the pastor can not keep it all together.

a) Mega Churches have been described as Christianity-ultralight. A Christianity sans commitment to anything, or anybody;

b) “Small Groups Bible Study” is the usual mode for individual members of mega-churches to resolve their theological differences, if any. This is where one can, and is expected to air their disagreements, resolving them by applying scripture to the issue;

c) “Church Shopping” is an old Christian tradition. Especially when one moves to a new neighbourhood. (Church growth in the United States is fueled by “church shoppers”, not conversions. This applies equally to Catholic, Orthodox, and Protestant Christianity.);

xan

jonathon