Mega-Churches, wealth, and double standard..

[bengal_fan]

My issue is not with the mega churches per se. I have seen a lot of them do good. I have two issues. First, the stuff arms race. People are picking a church not concidering the message but because of basketball, day care, and other such stuff. I mean come on. I had a kid in my Confirmation class ask me why we built the “Church part” but did not finish the gym. I told him that for 1,900 years, no one ever wanted a gym with the Church. After all, are you here for Jesus or to work on your 3 point shot? Second, and you do see this in a large number of mega churches, is the amazing correlation with the “calling” of the pastor and the pay. It seems like they are not “called by God” to another church until the money gets right. I know that that is a generalzation and there are some who leave for other reasons. I just have never seen someone “called” from a mega church to a poor church and take a $100,000+ pay cut

i don’t think it’s the gym, the children’s space or anything else. it’s the sense of community. those areas and events can help to foster that community and that’s why people point to them. the catholic churches with parish centers that are used regularly are generally the healthier parishes as well.

you should look more into the pastors who have left mega-churches. many have gone to much smaller churches and taken pay cuts. many mega church pastors don’t make as much as you think also. but there are many who have left their posts to take on smaller churches. the problem is… generally their new churches grow to be pretty large as well because they know the secret of community.

 

[bluerose]

Some friends of ours who are not Catholic were thrilled recently because their new church was built larger than their old one to accommodate their growing congregation, complete with “meeting rooms”, nursery, offices, etc.

Our parish church (the building, that is) hasn’t gotten any bigger over the last hundred years. We just added Masses to accommodate the growing crowds. The parish hall was added about 50 years ago.

Our friends’ church still has only ONE service at 10:00 a.m. on Sunday and Bible study at 7:00 p.m. on Wednesday. To my knowlege, the building stands empty (except for the “meeting rooms” for an hour here and there, and the offices) for the rest of the week.

Maybe it’s just me, but this doesn’t make a whole lot of sense. And our congregation is larger than theirs.

 

[mark_a]

Protestants often accused the Pope as being rich. The truth is, the Pope is not rich and he has no income or bank account. The Church’s income for the most part are from donated charities.

However, no one seem to concern about Protestant’s mega churches which cost about 48 million dollars. There seem to be a double standard here…

People will always find a reason to complain about the pope.

I must say though,that when I heard Jerry Falwell’s explanation about the same concerns “its time to bring God back to the forefront”, I thought that was a reasonable explanation.

I do find very high salaries that some of these ministers get pretty nausiating, though.

 

[Kitty_Chan]

I just have never seen someone “called” from a mega church to a poor church and take a $100,000+ pay cut

Rick Bell stepped down as Pastor of a mega church, it does happen.

 

[ralphinal]

It may be true that it happens. I am not surprised if it does. I just haven’t seen it here in Alabama.

I really don;t get the whole community thing. Why was this not an issue 50 years ago? Oh, yes, we ahd communities in our communities. People live without knowing their neighbors. They live miles from family. They look at a place of worship for something they miss in daily life. I just think that any church that puts community over message is wrong.

 

[rstegeman]

And just because it’s a “community” doesn’t necessarily mean it’s a good thing. Look at all the various cults. I agree that with many of the mega churches that I have encountered locally, the people are in search of something missing in their lives. For some it may very well be God, which is good that they are searching for him. For others, it is a sense of community, that, like you said, is no longer prevelant in today’s society. That is not a bad thing either. But they do need to find the truth which is the Church.

 

[Kitty_Chan]

If you guys are interested, the first mega church started here was formed from, ready? Several churches had split up and those members went there. After the trials of a small church and the pressures it was however you want to describe it, but good to be in a community of many. Then the few didnt have to do it all.

They worship in a large group, then break into smaller groups for bible study or whatever. Its sort of better for teen and children because they have more kids to interact with. Rather than not going to youth night because there is 10 in the youth group and its boring, a mega church may have 50 to 100 or more. So the youth may find more interest in church, because it becomes meaningfull to them.

My niece, who was getting over a divorce (with a abuser of her children) went to another mega church and found it good to just go, meet God and eventually she found her way to the small groups and found help for her broken heart. Now, strengthened she is back in a smaller church.

They have their place for different people at different times I guess. And they have room to bring in speakers, concerts etc. Which feeds the smaller churches too.

Maybe its all part of a shift in our lfe styles. But any church is only as good as its people.

 

[MugenOne]

Protestant services like the mega churches are held at the most convenient time of the week. And it is usually one service a week at 1000 AM or something. When I was still working for the government, I had to go to early in the morning on Sunday like 8 AM. On every military base, Catholic chaplains work the most. The Protestant chaplains just chill with one service a week.

Some friends of ours who are not Catholic were thrilled recently because their new church was built larger than their old one to accommodate their growing congregation, complete with “meeting rooms”, nursery, offices, etc.

Our parish church (the building, that is) hasn’t gotten any bigger over the last hundred years. We just added Masses to accommodate the growing crowds. The parish hall was added about 50 years ago.

Our friends’ church still has only ONE service at 10:00 a.m. on Sunday and Bible study at 7:00 p.m. on Wednesday. To my knowlege, the building stands empty (except for the “meeting rooms” for an hour here and there, and the offices) for the rest of the week.

Maybe it’s just me, but this doesn’t make a whole lot of sense. And our congregation is larger than theirs.

 

[EmergencyOps]

you are right. Millions of $ are spent on expanding mega churches when the money could be used elsewhere - for crisis pregnancy centers, women’s shelters, homeless shelters and homes for unwed mothers that chose life and not abortion.

I understand where you’re coming from, but I see it from a different light. Most churches (across the board) expand due to increased membership. Those that do are blessed to be able to afford it. Others cannot (like the parish another poster mentioned). A Baptist church I went to when I was young cannot afford to do so, and they have stayed in that same little building for decades, with the same low ceilings.

I do understand that Catholic buildings are built, furnished, and made beautiful by donations (as opposed to the misconception that the Vatican just throws money around). Could the donations be better spent by those who donate? It’s a hot topic, indeed. Churches across the religion/denomination spectrum have a tendency to keep upping the ante. In the Oakland, California diocese, the Cathedral of Christ the Light (when completed sometime this year) checks out at $190 million. USA Today has an article about it.

-Mark

 

[FredSmith]

I don’t doubt that there are “mega-churches” who abuse their stewardship responsibilities.

I personally know of one church in Burlington, NJ who built a multi-million dollar church building that they knew they could never pay for. Sure enough, within five years, they were so far in debt that they had to surrender the building.

But I also know of many who do an admirable job.

Our church started out meeting in a member’s back yard a couple of years ago. We’ve since grown so much that we’re planning to move into our second building about eighteen months from now.

We’re in a very unique position because we don’t have the money problems most churches have. We don’t have to constantly harp on money issues or worry about where the money for our building fund is going to come from.

Our ministries are all fully funded, our missionaries are all taken care of, the two Gospel rescue missions we run are funded, and so we feel that it’s OK to put some things into this new building that others might disagree with.

For instance, we are going to have a gymnasium so that we can host an Awana-like program that we will be starting, as well as other outreach events.

And instead of a normal lobby area, we’re going to make it a fellowship area, complete with a large fireplace.

On a side note, it’s also going to be eco-friendly, deriving most of it’s electricity from solar panels on the roof.

And I don’t think there’s any problem with that.

 

[ralphinal]

I don’t doubt that there are “mega-churches” who abuse their stewardship responsibilities.

I personally know of one church in Burlington, NJ who built a multi-million dollar church building that they knew they could never pay for. Sure enough, within five years, they were so far in debt that they had to surrender the building.

But I also know of many who do an admirable job.

Our church started out meeting in a member’s back yard a couple of years ago. We’ve since grown so much that we’re planning to move into our second building about eighteen months from now.

We’re in a very unique position because we don’t have the money problems most churches have. We don’t have to constantly harp on money issues or worry about where the money for our building fund is going to come from.

Our ministries are all fully funded, our missionaries are all taken care of, the two Gospel rescue missions we run are funded, and so we feel that it’s OK to put some things into this new building that others might disagree with.

For instance, we are going to have a gymnasium so that we can host an Awana-like program that we will be starting, as well as other outreach events.

And instead of a normal lobby area, we’re going to make it a fellowship area, complete with a large fireplace.

On a side note, it’s also going to be eco-friendly, deriving most of it’s electricity from solar panels on the roof.

And I don’t think there’s any problem with that.

I think that the stewardship problems that some run into, in any size church, tend to be when abitions overreach reality. It sounds like your church kept the two close together: yes, you wanted to grow but in the right time at the right pace. I admire the fact that you placed the gym as a secondary priority to the ministries of your church. It seems like too many people put the cart (gyms and life centers) before the horse (Jesus).

The eco-friendly is cool to me. I think that we have a responsility to care for the earth.

 

[Kitty_Chan]

Protestant services like the mega churches are held at the most convenient time of the week. And it is usually one service a week at 1000 AM or something. When I was still working for the government, I had to go to early in the morning on Sunday like 8 AM. On every military base, Catholic chaplains work the most. The Protestant chaplains just chill with one service a week.

The mega church I spoke of has 3 services on sunday, one on saturday and one on wednesday.

Thats not including all the group activities.

and most prostent churches have at least one sun morn and nite, sometimes 2 on sunday morn. Then wed nite bible studies.

Just to keep things accurate.

 

[cyberjacques]

Have an expensive church building is not a problem in an of itself. We in the Catholic Church have some pretty grandiose churches ourselves. The difference is, ours are meant to focus us on celebrating Mass with Jesus Christ, Mary, and the entire Communion of Saints. It is our way of building a house for God that is truly worthy of Him. They are our gifts to Him. Just think of Christmas gifts. Do you buy your loved ones something inexpensive or something that you like or do you think of them, spare no expense and try to get them something that they will truly enjoy and thus display your true love for them?

The Mega churches, however, adorn themselves with items that glorify man instead. Large screen TV’s, fancy lighting systems, etc. How does any of that remind you of Jesus. These are just gifts to people, not Jesus.

One way to truly measure is to walk into the various church buildings when they are empty (of people). Which building makes you feel that you are truly in the presence of holiness and lifts your soul to be more aware of Jesus: an expensive Catholic Church with the Altar and Tabernacle being the ultimate focus of all who are there or the expensive Mega church with the Jumbotron and rock concert atmosphere?

Well said, sir. Many non-Catholics, especially the young ones, are falling into the trap of choosing a church based on its entertainment appeal. Don’t get me wrong, I enjoy mass very much, but I don’t consider it entertainment. The “rock concert atmosphere” is irreverent, in my opinion, and detracts from worship. And I think your apology for judging, while charitable, was unnecessary. You’re correct in your assessment, and you shouldn’t have to apologize for it.

judge not lest ye be judged.

It’s a pet peev of mine when people use this to say you aren’t supposed to judge others. What it actually means is you should be careful about judging others, because you will be judged by those same standards. If someone feels that they are holding themselves to their own standards, I would argue that it is their duty to judge others by those standards. Who was it that said it is not charity to allow others to persist in their sin? Likewise, it is not pious to turn a blind eye to the impiousness of others.

 

[ALLGIRLS]

And out of that $12,500 annual salary they pay for food, housing, transportation, entertainment, housekeeping, kids education/health care, etc., etc…?

Although priests of the Latin Rite (which is what most people think of when they think “Catholic”) are generally not married (although they are about 25 married Latin Rite priests in the U.S., mostly converts from the Episcopal and Lutheran Churches), they don’t live for free. Most live in rectories, which are owned by the Church, but they DO have to buy their own food and clothes (including liturgical vestements, which are VERY expensive) and transportation (cars, insurance, gas). When we built our new church (my church is now classified as a “mega parish”, 20 years ago it was a small rural church-typical urban sprawl/white flight situation) our pastor pledged a 3rd of his salary. Depending on the diocese, they may also have to provide their own health insurance and retirement. Some may also have elderly parents to care for (not all priests come from “traditional” large Catholic families. Our associate pastor is one of 2 kids, and his parents are divorced). Generally speaking, priests do A LOT with very little money, and their salaries aren’t tied to how many new parishioners they register, or how wonderful their preaching abilities are, or how much was collected in the offertory. And the parishioners can’t vote to give them raises (or cut their salaries) like the congregants of the nondenom. and other “congregational” type churches. It’s just a totally different system.

I don’t think these pastors go into ministry hoping to get rich and famous, but it can be a danger when that happens, both in the appearances (how many people made jokes about Jim Bakker and Jimmy Swaggert even before they “fell from grace”, and so many people, even other known Christians, (Hank Hanegraff comes to mind) can’t stand Joyce Meyer) of the ministry and in the personal temptations it brings to the pastors themselves.

I like what Agnos Theist said-generally speaking, priests are brought down by sexual temptation and protestants by monetary greed (although sometimes it’s both-like w/ Jim Bakker & Jimmy Swaggert and that guy who was recently outed for doing meth and having sex w/ a male prostitute). Neither side can really throw stones, but it does get old hearing about how “rich” the Vatican is, and that world poverty would be eradicated if only the Pope would sell everything and give the money away, and it’s hypocritical for him to tell other people to give money the poor, yada yada yada.

When someone disses a megachurch pastor, unless you go to their church, you can shrug it off and dismiss it-after all, it has nothing to do w/ you, even if you yourself attend a different megachurch. But when people say that about Pope, or makes the (almost constant) cracks about priests being pedophiles, if you’re Catholic, you can’t distance yourself from that, and it gets tiring having to constantly defend the Pope and the Church.

That’s I think why people start threads like this-we’re really not trying to be judgemental, we’re just frustrated, is all :banghead:

In Christ,

Ellen