Mel Gibson Scandal writ large

[jpm1977]

A couple questions:

I know we’re all sinners, but why does it seems like those the most vocal about their faith and piety end up being exposed as such hypocrites?

Mel Gibson was on Leno the other night joking about impregnating his girlfriend. He called himself “Octo-Mel.” (He is married with seven children, and now another on the way). He is one of the very few celebrities to be public about his Catholicism. He did so often in a ‘Holier than Thou’ manner. Now that it is revealed that his wife of 28 years is divorcing him for cheating on her with a Russian model/actress in her 20s, who he’s now made pregnant by the affair, how does that affect the popular view of religion and Catholicism? Let alone the popular view, what does this do to Catholics who once could point to him as an example of a Catholic in the public eye? Its the very definition of scandal. He once was so public about his faith, and now he laughs on national TV about his adultery.

Then, to add insult to injury, you see what happened in Ireland where its been revealed in a governmental report there that there was systematic sexual and physical abuse of children at schools all over the country there for decades. Add to that similar revelations in the US, Canada (Quebec), Australia, England and elsewhere and I really have no answers to people who accuse the Church of being a giant cover organization for pedophiles. I know its just as bad if not worse in public schools, etc., but the point is shouldn’t it be?!!! Shouldn’t the behavior of priests be better than a random sample of public school teachers?! And it does appear to be systematic and worldwide.

Its downright dismaying. I have to say, my new faith is at a low point now. I have a hard time seeing what good the Church has done in the world in a very long time. I know about the hospitals, and all that, but a lot of secular organizations and governments do that too, and that’s like saying, Yeah I robbed a bank, but I gave half the money to charity!

Children abused for decades around the globe, a high profile Catholic celebrity who was once probably used as a role model by some Catholic parents for their young sons laughs off his adultery on national TV. I just have a hard time understanding how this should all be possible in an institution supposedly guided by the Holy Spirit.

 

[chewchoo]

we are all sinners, every last one of us. i don’t know the state of mel’s soul now or when he was making the passion. but if he was in fact so public about his faith, and sincere about it, the devil was working on him double and triple time and sadly mel fell. and all of the anti-church people are having a field day with it.

but on the other point, being disgusted with the church. there is the earthly institution that will fail us again and again, but there is also the divine institution. it will not fail us.

if you had a good friend who was also friends with someone else who flipped out and robbed a bank or something, would you abandon your good friend because of his other friend? stay with your good friend and work together to try to help the fallen friend. your’s and your friend’s prayers will help the fallen friend to rise again.

 

[nmoerbeek]

A couple questions:

I know we’re all sinners, but why does it seems like those the most vocal about their faith and piety end up being exposed as such hypocrites?

Mel Gibson was on Leno the other night joking about impregnating his girlfriend. He called himself “Octo-Mel.” (He is married with seven children, and now another on the way). He is one of the very few celebrities to be public about his Catholicism. He did so often in a ‘Holier than Thou’ manner. Now that it is revealed that his wife of 28 years is divorcing him for cheating on her with a Russian model/actress in her 20s, who he’s now made pregnant by the affair, how does that affect the popular view of religion and Catholicism? Let alone the popular view, what does this do to Catholics who once could point to him as an example of a Catholic in the public eye? Its the very definition of scandal. He once was so public about his faith, and now he laughs on national TV about his adultery.

Then, to add insult to injury, you see what happened in Ireland where its been revealed in a governmental report there that there was systematic sexual and physical abuse of children at schools all over the country there for decades. Add to that similar revelations in the US, Canada (Quebec), Australia, England and elsewhere and I really have no answers to people who accuse the Church of being a giant cover organization for pedophiles. I know its just as bad if not worse in public schools, etc., but the point is shouldn’t it be?!!! Shouldn’t the behavior of priests be better than a random sample of public school teachers?! And it does appear to be systematic and worldwide.

Its downright dismaying. I have to say, my new faith is at a low point now. I have a hard time seeing what good the Church has done in the world in a very long time. I know about the hospitals, and all that, but a lot of secular organizations and governments do that too, and that’s like saying, Yeah I robbed a bank, but I gave half the money to charity!

Children abused for decades around the globe, a high profile Catholic celebrity who was once probably used as a role model by some Catholic parents for their young sons laughs off his adultery on national TV. I just have a hard time understanding how this should all be possible in an institution supposedly guided by the Holy Spirit.

Because Peter Denied Christ and Judas one of his own apostles turned him in and then committed suicide.

How could peter after having denied Christ possibly be guided by the holy spirit? We are not a social club, our orphanages, hospitals, shelters, charities, churches mean nothing without love. The Catholic church merely represents the truth it is the bride of Christ on earth. To my knowledge no man has been able to live up to the truth yet (IE everyone is a sinner)

However it was a scandal for Mel Gibson to do what he did. Offer your prayers for him and exercise charity. It is important to remember that the euchrist is the body and blood of Christ and that we have crucifixes with our god Suffering for our SINS. He did not come to make men perfect but came to redeem imperfect men.

 

[underhismercy]

It is so discouraging to see the mess we can make of our lives when we give in to the flesh rather than the Spirit. When I was a younger Christian I used to look at stories of those who had fallen from grace rather like the Pharasee in Luke 18:9-15 “God I thank you that I am not like other men…”
But life has a way of humbling our hearts ; surprising us with difficulties we never imagined we would face…and that has changed how I respond to these stories. I have realized that I am only ever ONE decision away from my worst regret. Moses fell and …completely missed the promised land, David fell and the sword never left his house.

That but for the grace of God … could easily be my story…

So, I grieve with you for the loss of this man’s grace…let’s pray for mercy for him and all the fallen. That’s what I would want if it were me.

As for the intensification of anger against the church…It was already there…You can find it every time you look at the crucifix and remember what Jesus suffered though He was without any sin.

Sacred Heart of Jesus Have Mercy on Us
Immaculate Heart of Mary Pray for Us

 

[dashso40]

The Catholic church is run by humans, who give in to temptation and sin, but there are many Catholics who are wonderful inside and out…just the “bad” Catholics are the ones who stand out…Mel Gibson gave in to the tempting sinful lifestyle that Hollywood puts out there. He shouldn’t be joking about it but the devil can get to any one of us if we stop praying…Was it St. Paul who said to pray constantly?..When we take our minds off Jesus, we fall to sin…

 

[Annie39]

I understand Catholics disappointment with those Catholics who do not live out the faith. However, I would like to point out that Mel Gibson is not and has not been for many, many years a practicing Catholic. He had left the Church years and years ago. He has started his own Church. I understand that his church has the look and “feel” of a pre-Vatican II Church. It is staffed by so-called “independent” priests. They are NOT in union with Rome. One must have Mel’s permission to attend and he can revoke that permission at will.

 

[reggieM]

Its downright dismaying. I have to say, my new faith is at a low point now. I have a hard time seeing what good the Church has done in the world in a very long time. I know about the hospitals, and all that, but a lot of secular organizations and governments do that too, and that’s like saying, Yeah I robbed a bank, but I gave half the money to charity!

Take a look at the Holy Father, Pope Benedict – his voice carries far and he converts many people.
You might also want to find the documentary on Vailankanni, the Lourdes of the East. That is a remarkable place of an apparition of the Blessed Virgin. Millions travel there – the majority who come are non-Catholic (Muslims and Hindus) to honor Mary. The conversions, healings and spiritual and material works of mercy there are simply incredible.
marianland.com/vailankanni/001.html

Sometimes it’s best not to put too much focus on the Hollywood and CNN version of the world. Perhaps Mel Gibson got taken way by the glamour of Satan (which is what we renounce in Baptism).

Also, try a visit to the Monks at Clear Creek, Oklahoma or perhaps a retreat at the FSSP facility in Lincoln NE. You’ll see young priests who are sacrificing their lives for Christ, with a lot of joy and intensity of faith.

Find the right avenues and plug yourself into them. If you can find a spiritual director to meet with once a month that will help also. Don’t get discouraged – we’re fighting a very tough battle now but there are signs of victory all around. We just have to see through the smokescreens that our culture is putting up now.

 

[Joe_Kelley]

I once heard that the Mormons are the Church of the Latter Day Saints; We are the Church of the Latter Day Sinners.

 

[TruthisBeauty7]

The fact is The Church was overrun with a bunch of Homosexauls. Most of these cases were homosexaulity . I think they said the Avg age of abuse was 15 year old males. Gay People approach yound adults who they think have …homosexaul tendecies. In all my life Ive never been approached by a homosexaul, this despite living in two cities with large gay populations. Im a good looking guy and well built , But they know if they ever made a move on me, I’d probably smack them right upside the head. They prey on the weak the vulnerable. This is the historical perversion of homosexaulity dating all the way back to the greeks.

What the Church is working on now is weeding out these perverted men from the priesthood.

Im sad to say but this will take at least another 10 years or so. The Church might even have to allow Priests to Marry in the latin rite to attract more straight men to the priesthood.

 

[JohnPaul64]

we are all sinners, every last one of us. i don’t know the state of mel’s soul now or when he was making the passion. but if he was in fact so public about his faith, and sincere about it, the devil was working on him double and triple time and sadly mel fell. and all of the anti-church people are having a field day with it.

but on the other point, being disgusted with the church. there is the earthly institution that will fail us again and again, but there is also the divine institution. it will not fail us.

if you had a good friend who was also friends with someone else who flipped out and robbed a bank or something, would you abandon your good friend because of his other friend? stay with your good friend and work together to try to help the fallen friend. your’s and your friend’s prayers will help the fallen friend to rise again.

Well put. Pray for Mel.

 

[puzzleannie]

A
Its downright dismaying. I have to say, my new faith is at a low point now. I have a hard time seeing what good the Church has done in the world in a very long time. I know about the hospitals, and all that, but a lot of secular organizations and governments do that too, and that’s like saying, Yeah I robbed a bank, but I gave half the money to charity!

.

a high profile celebrity who has at times traded on his Catholic faith has sinned. Catholic clergy have been proven to have sinned.

breaking news: people frequently sin, even Catholics, even celebrities, even churchmen.

our faith is not in people, not even in high-profile Catholic laymen, not even in priests and popes. our faith is in Jesus Christ, and in his Church which teaches the truth, even when many of her members sin, and which is Holy because Jesus is holy, not because her members are holy. Yes if your faith is in humans it will fail. We do not believe what the Church teaches because many of her members do good things, and we do not lose our belief when some of her members sin. Place our faith in Jesus and learn to distinguish the Church from her failing members. If you cannot do this, you will not find a place for yourself when the time comes, as it does for us all, when you sin.

 

[jpm1977]

Thanks for all these good posts. But, I still feel pretty despondent. Putting Gibson aside, its mostly because what I hear from people is basically this: When anything good happens to do with the Church, the Holy Spirit gets the credit; When ever anything bad happens, we blame Satan and say that its a human institution full of fallible people, etc.

Of course Satan can’t do anything good, people are fallible and the Holy Spirit can’t do anything bad, but I guess what that makes me wonder is, shouldn’t the Holy Spirit win? If so, why isn’t the Church any better? Why should the Church have been overrun with molesters in the clergy? Why didn’t God protect it from such damage? The Church has died in Quebec, most of Europe, many parts of the US? Why? If it was Vatican II, why was that allowed to happen?

I just think, and a lot of people do, that if the Church has been so gravely damaged around the world in the past hundred years, and has been so decimated by the abuse scandals around the world of the past 20 years, why should I think its a divine institution? It just seems like there’s so little evidence of that today.

Sorry if I’m being overly down, but its a very hard question for me to grapple with. The Church did so many great thing early in its history, but lately it seems like all it does it apologize for everything its done wrong, and that list keeps getting longer…

 

[reggieM]

There are presently 1.2 billion Catholics in the world today – and growing in many parts of the world. God has allowed this time of apostacy and evil to befall us. Now you might prefer another time in history. But there were times that you would not prefer – such as during the Arian crisis when nearly all of the bishops of the world fell into heresy and the Church seemed lost forever. There was the Protestant revolution in England also, where only one bishop retained the Faith and all others lapsed into heresy. Keep in mind, there were converts to the Faith even in those times.
Consider the dominance of the Roman empire – crushing the Catholic faith for almost 300years. Converts faced the almost-immediate prospect of a cruel death. But they still converted. It looked like the Church was ruined and the Caesars would triumph, but they remained joyful. Why? Because their focus was on Christ and His return.
I think we have good reason to look to Him today. A great apostacy may wipe the faith out even more than we see now. Christ will return and wonder “if there is any faith on earth”.
As for the measure of the Church’s divinity, don’t look just to her victories but rather to her Crosses. She suffers persecution everywhere – sometimes even from within by bad bishops and priests. Look to the Catholic martyrs in the Middle East - abandoned by just about everyone. Can they see the Church as the divine institution it is?
In every victory that you admire for the Church through history – there were tremendous sufferings to get there. 300 years of martyrdom before Constantine’s conversion and the great triumphs for the Faith. The Moslems almost took over all of Europe except for a miraculous battle at Lepanto. The Church was confused with 3 claimaints to the papacy at one time – certainly it looked like it was going to die right there.
St. John of the Cross was kicked out of his religious order and put under interdict by the Pope. St. Pio was also unjustly disciplined by his superiors.
The Church, by her nature, is Christ – His Body. So, the Church has to suffer, has to be poor, has to be persecuted. Even Christ’s resurrection is denied outr ight – why would God allow that? Why not make everything so obvious that nobody could deny it?
The answer is that God demands some faith. God gives insights, solid evidence, “clues”, gifts of strength and light – and these grow into unshakable certainty over time. But it takes prayer and communion with Christ to gain these insights a little at a time.

 

[manualman]

The key to understanding is to see the Church as Jesus sees us.

He didn’t come to establish the institution as the light on the hill, he came to give us the Grace so that the people who make up the institution would be lights on hills.

In every age, humanity has been sinful. We all need a savior, not least those of us in the Church! But mere membership does not change one’s soul.

Salvation history moves in ebbs and flows and we sure seem to be in a low ebb in our era. The good thing about that is that we are being offered the opportunity to shine lighter in the darkness than we could in a less dark age.

Ever notice how the Church only canonizes dead people? Learn from that. Don’t let any catholic celebrity be your pride or your hope in this age. None of us are done until we’re done. Premature canonizing will always bring trouble.

Worry not about how others are doing. Don’t worry about the institution. It isn’t the priests, brothers and bishops jobs to evangelize the world. That’s OUR job. Their job is to sustain us with the Grace of the sacraments, not make us feel good with good PR departments. Good thing too, because they stink at PR.

Just remember, PR is OUR job. Get moving and get praying soldier!

 

[chewchoo]

reggieM and manualman :clapping::clapping:

i would like to add that Jesus’ handpicked apostles were scandalous, look at judas and peter.

the others were correct about serious crises all thru out church history. read about almost any saint, the things they had to overcome, but yet they persisted in their love of Jesus and his church. i can’t remember which saint right now, but just after the protestant revolt one saint was sent to a town where most of the people had converted to calvinism. this saint spent 4 years writing tracts and placing them under people’s doors at night defending the catholic church. finally, with the grace of God many hearts turned back to the catholic church.

as for the holy Spirit winning, he does win. we know how this story will end. God will be victorious! in his parable about the wheat and the weeds Jesus told us that we would have to co-exist. the suffering of the wheat helps it to appreciate God’s gifts. if everything was wine and roses all of the time, what would we have to look forward to in heaven? God’s gift of faith and church is something we must struggle to keep alive. i read a quote by thomas paine recently that sort of applies here “what we obtain too cheap, we esteem too lightly.”

 

[BobCatholic]

I once heard that the Mormons are the Church of the Latter Day Saints; We are the Church of the Latter Day Sinners.

the Church of the Former Day Saints

 

[Feanor2]

Plus Mel is a member of some kind of weirdo sect along with his anti-Semitic father. He is a heretic and schismatic.

 

[otjm]

Of course Satan can’t do anything good, people are fallible and the Holy Spirit can’t do anything bad, but I guess what that makes me wonder is, shouldn’t the Holy Spirit win?

And why do you think the Holy Spirit is not winning?

If so, why isn’t the Church any better?

And what makes you think the Church is not getting better?

Why should the Church have been overrun with molesters in the clergy? Why didn’t God protect it from such damage?

And what makes you think the Church is being “overrun”? And why would you expect God to protect the Church from evil people, when He did not protect His only Son?

The Church has died in Quebec, most of Europe, many parts of the US? Why? If it was Vatican II, why was that allowed to happen?

The Church is not dead there or here, and it is not the fault of Vatican 2; that is simply post hoc, ergo propter hos, and not even a very good example of it. There are, however, many people who have chosen to not follow the Church. That is called free will. God never said He would protect us from free will; rather, He said “I put before you death and life. Choose life.” If people choose death, that is their choice and they get the results they choose.

I just think, and a lot of people do, that if the Church has been so gravely damaged around the world in the past hundred years, and has been so decimated by the abuse scandals around the world of the past 20 years, why should I think its a divine institution? It just seems like there’s so little evidence of that today.

Sorry if I’m being overly down, but its a very hard question for me to grapple with. The Church did so many great thing early in its history, but lately it seems like all it does it apologize for everything its done wrong, and that list keeps getting longer…

Part of your proplem is that you read and are not selective about what you read or where you read it, and you do not do effective research on the questions.

To begin with, the public press is not the place to gather information on what is actually happening in the Church. I would suggest that you read either the Natioanl Catholic Register (a bit expensive) or Our Sunday Visitor (less expensive; generally more available, and not as in depth, but accurate).

As to abusive priests: there are other threads around here; some of them have good information if you can take the time to wade through them. About 3 to 4% of all priests in the US were abusive. The numbers are actually higher in public instituutions, such a spublic schools; however, because the governement runs the school system, the schools and the government are not subject to being sued, and if sued, have a very low cap on damages. The Church doesn’t. But the public press is not going around saying that 96 or 97% of priests are not abusing anyone. Guess what - that isn’t news and it doesn’t sell papers.

As to Ireland, some of the issues are bad indeed; but they also stem from a different culture and a lot of it a different time - 30, 40 50 or more years back. I went to a Jesuit high school and a diocesan high school in the US, and both of them in the 1960’s practiced corporal punishment in a way that could land someone in jail now. That was then, this is now. Failing to understand that leads to massive confusion about standards (and I am not supporting older standards, only suggesting that what is not accepted now was accepted then to a greater or lesser degree). Judging history through today’s lenses makes for distortions of understanding. And there is a difference between understanding and acceptance.

You are looking at the negative and that is all you see, in large part because of where you are getting your sources of information. That is not to say that evil has not occured; but it is nowhere near the level you are projecting. Learn to do research on issues and not simply take something the press says as the sum of all information.