Melkite vs Byzatine

[ConstantineTG]

“We” who? You mean the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church on her site and in her documents sometimes calls herself the Ukrainian Catholic Church?

Yes. I was reading something a while back. Not sure how official are those though. They’ve also tried to use “Kyivian Catholic” at some point.

I am only concerned with what the Church *sui iuris * is officially called, for the purposes of the concern I have raised, not with the myriad of variations that get tossed about informally by Church members and parishes.

With the Ukrainian Church, those two “names” have been pushed to be official I believe

 

[Vico]

is officially called, for the purposes of the concern I have raised, not with the myriad of variations that get tossed about informally by Church members and parishes.

I noticed that the names of the churches mutate and the general term is Greek Catholic, and also so and so eparchy of the byzantine rite.

But we know 20 eastern Churches sui iuris are distinct because they are individually listed in *Annuario Pontifico, plus **Ordinariates for the Faithful of Various Eastern Catholic Churches Without Their Own Hierarchy. *Thwo are not specifically listed there by name but have a history with an exarch: Russian (1917) and Belarusan (1940) .

On the Vatican website, there is an article that refers to the name in 1917: "Russian Catholic Church of the Eastern-rite"

vatican.va/news_services/liturgy/saints/ns_lit_doc_20010627_carneckyj_en.html

In 1997 the Holy Father said: “Since no constituted hierarchy for the faithul of the Greek Catholic rite exists in Belarusian territory,…”

vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/speeches/1997/april/documents/hf_jp-ii_spe_19970407_presuli-belarus_en.html

"Greek Catholic Ukrainian Church" is used here by the Holy Father, 2001:

vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/homilies/2001/documents/hf_jp-ii_hom_20010626_ucraina-beat_en.html

"Greek Catholic Church in Slovakia", 2008**:**

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/orientchurch/eventi/rc_con_corient_doc_20030121_indice_eventi.html

 

[Diakonia]

On the Vatican website, there is an article that refers to the name in 1917: "Russian Catholic Church of the Eastern-rite"

vatican.va/news_services/liturgy/saints/ns_lit_doc_20010627_carneckyj_en.html

That’s hardly definitive; it’s a tag line in a poorly written bio paragraph intended as press release material to accompany the process of beatification of Blessed Mykola and others.

In 1917, no one was titling the Russian ecclesia as the ‘Russian Catholic Church …’ . They weren’t even acknowledging it as a Church. Blessed Leonid would have been titled as ‘Apostolic Exarch of Moscow for Faithful of the Oriental Rites (Russian)’.

 

[Vico]

That’s hardly definitive; it’s a tag line in a poorly written bio paragraph intended as press release material to accompany the process of beatification of Blessed Mykola and others.

In 1917, no one was titling the Russian ecclesia as the ‘Russian Catholic Church …’ . They weren’t even acknowledging it as a Church. Blessed Leonid would have been titled as ‘Apostolic Exarch of Moscow for Faithful of the Oriental Rites (Russian)’.

It was Blessed Fr. Leontiy Leonid Feodorov that was the Apostolic Exarch (of Russia of the Russians) in 1917-1935.

You can see some of the history here:

gcatholic.com/events/rite-Rs.htm

gcatholic.com/dioceses/diocese/russ0.htm#12391

Леонид Иванович Фёдоров; 1879 - 1935

 

[Diakonia]

Vico,

gCatholic is a nice site - but not definitive by any means. (And, can I say that I find ‘passed away’ to be somewhat lacking as a euphemism for death by martyrdom).

The Apostolic Exarchate of Moscow was not styled as the Apostolic Exarchate of Russia of the Russians. In the time (and, likely, still now, were it to reinstituted from its sede vacante status, it would be termed as the Apostolic Exarchate of Moscow for Faithful of the Oriental Rites (Russian).

Btw, if you’re correcting me as to Blessed Father Exarch Leonid’s name … Leontiy was his monastic name, as Exarch he was called by Leonid - his baptismal name.

 

[Vico]

Vico,

gCatholic is a nice site - but not definitive by any means. (And, can I say that I find ‘passed away’ to be somewhat lacking as a euphemism for death by martyrdom).

The Apostolic Exarchate of Moscow was not styled as the Apostolic Exarchate of Russia of the Russians. In the time (and, likely, still now, were it to reinstituted from its sede vacante status, it would be termed as the Apostolic Exarchate of Moscow for Faithful of the Oriental Rites (Russian).

Btw, if you’re correcting me as to Blessed Father Exarch Leonid’s name … Leontiy was his monastic name, as Exarch he was called by Leonid - his baptismal name.

The name is certainly not definitive, this is only showing the history as an exarchate. No correction was intended.

It is suprising to read what the titles used by the Holy Fathers, such as in 2005, Blessed Pope John Paul II said:

1. With the Apostle Paul, I invoke upon everyone “the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit” (2 Cor 13:14). With particular affection I greet you, dear brothers and sisters, sons and daughters of the Catholic Church, assembled here with your Bishops from the Dioceses of Sofia-Plovdiv and Nicopoli and from the Apostolic Exarchate for the faithful of the Byzantine-Slav rite. I thank the Pastor of this Particular Church, Bishop Gheorghi Jovev, for his words of welcome and I offer cordial greetings to my Brothers in the Episcopate, Bishop Christo Proykov, President of the Episcopal Conference, and Bishop Petko Christov, Bishop of Nicopoli. I also greet the Cardinals and Bishops who have come from nearby countries in order in order to share this day of celebration with the Church in Bulgaria.

vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/homilies/2002/documents/hf_jp-ii_hom_20020526_beatification-plovdiv_en.html

 

[Diakonia]

The name is certainly not definitive, this is only showing the history as an exarchate. No correction was intended.

My apologies for jumping to conclusions.

It is suprising to read what the titles used by the Holy Fathers, such as in 2005, Blessed Pope John Paul II said:

1. With the Apostle Paul, I invoke upon everyone “the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit” (2 Cor 13:14). With particular affection I greet you, dear brothers and sisters, sons and daughters of the Catholic Church, assembled here with your Bishops from the Dioceses of Sofia-Plovdiv and Nicopoli and from the Apostolic Exarchate for the faithful of the Byzantine-Slav rite. I thank the Pastor of this Particular Church, Bishop Gheorghi Jovev, for his words of welcome and I offer cordial greetings to my Brothers in the Episcopate, Bishop Christo Proykov, President of the Episcopal Conference, and Bishop Petko Christov, Bishop of Nicopoli. I also greet the Cardinals and Bishops who have come from nearby countries in order in order to share this day of celebration with the Church in Bulgaria.

vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/homilies/2002/documents/hf_jp-ii_hom_20020526_beatification-plovdiv_en.html

True enough. There is rarely any consistency although, admittedly, few of us ever speak as formally as we might write. I suppose, all things considered, the quote of HH which you’ve posted is actually closer to accurate in its phrasing than much of the usage on the vatican website.

 

[Ignatios]

Melkites use the Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom, just as do the “Byzantines”. Usually (but not always) most parishes labeled “Byzantine Catholic” are actually Ruthenian Greek Catholics that have adopted the nomenclature of “Byzantine”. There are actually a good number of particular (sui iuris) Churches of the Byzantine tradition:

Ruthenian
Melkite
Romanian
Ukrainian
Russian
Italo-Byzantine
Greek
Serbian
Georgian

and a good number of others.

Hope this helps.

ICXC + NIKA,
Phillip

Hello Phillip, I saw that you included the Serbian in there, do you mean maybe the Croatian? I am not aware of Serbian Catholic and I have lots of Friends that are Serbian, I asked them about this they said there is some Serbians(individuals) in Croatia that they converted to Catholicism during the WWII under persecution but there is no"Serbian Catholic Church" however if it does exist can you give me some links to some of their Churches here in the USA or even in Serbia, thank you very much.

 

[Formosus]

I imagine the Serbian Catholic Church is probably similar to the Russian and Greek ones. A movement among a few elites pushed for by the Holy See. I do not know anything about Serbian Catholics, but I would be willing to be they might have one parish or two somewhere in Serbia.

*No offense to my Russian or Hellenic Catholic brethren of course!

 

[Diakonia]

Serbian Greek-Catholics are of the Apostolic Exarchate of Serbia and Montenegro, a canonical jurisdiction erected in 2003 from territory formerly of the Eparchy of Krizevci of the Croats. Although, like all apostolic exarchates, it is immediately subject to the Oriental Congregation, the exarchate is deemed to be a jurisdiction of the Croatian Greek-Catholic Church and is reported as such in the Annuario Pontificio.

The exarchate had 21 parishes, about as many priests, and 65 female religious, serving some 23,000 faithful, according to the most recent edition of the AP. The incumbent exarch is Kyr Djura (Dzudzar). You can read a 2006 interview with him here.

The majority of the faithful are Montenegrons or persons of Carpatho-Rusyn or Ukrainian heritage; the number of ethnic Serbian Greek-Catholics would be very small (most ethinic Serbian Catholics are of the Latin Church). The vast majority of Serbians are Orthodox.

There are no Serbian Greek-Catholic parishes in the diaspora. In the US, immigrant faithful from Serbia would be committed to the pastoral care of the Byzantine (Ruthenian) Metropolia, as are the faithful of the parent Croat Greek-Catholic Church. (There is a single Croat GC parish extant in the Eparchy of Parma of the Ruthenians - St Nicholas the Wonderworker Croatian Greek-Catholic Church in Cleveland.)

 

[Formosus]

Well I stand corrected. Thank you for that interesting bit of information! That is interesting that it was made its own church rather then just put under the jurisdiction of a previously existing one (like the Ruthenians in Europe or the Ukrainians).

 

[Ignatios]

Serbian Greek-Catholics are of the Apostolic Exarchate of Serbia and Montenegro, a canonical jurisdiction erected in 2003 from territory formerly of the Eparchy of Krizevci of the Croats. Although, like all apostolic exarchates, it is immediately subject to the Oriental Congregation, the exarchate is deemed to be a jurisdiction of the Croatian Greek-Catholic Church and is reported as such in the Annuario Pontificio.

The exarchate had 21 parishes, about as many priests, and 65 female religious, serving some 23,000 faithful, according to the most recent edition of the AP. The incumbent exarch is Kyr Djura (Dzudzar). You can read a 2006 interview with him here.

The majority of the faithful are Montenegrons or persons of Carpatho-Rusyn or Ukrainian heritage; the number of ethnic Serbian Greek-Catholics would be very small (most ethinic Serbian Catholics are of the Latin Church). The vast majority of Serbians are Orthodox.

There are no Serbian Greek-Catholic parishes in the diaspora. In the US, immigrant faithful from Serbia would be committed to the pastoral care of the Byzantine (Ruthenian) Metropolia, as are the faithful of the parent Croat Greek-Catholic Church. (There is a single Croat GC parish extant in the Eparchy of Parma of the Ruthenians - St Nicholas the Wonderworker Croatian Greek-Catholic Church in Cleveland.)

Thank you for your respond, So I take it that there is no such a thing a Serbian Catholic Church but there is an exarchate for those Greek Catholic (Ukrainians) or for those Croats that are in Serbia according to Bishop Djura Dzudzar he is there for them.

 

[Vico]

The Križevci Cathlolic Church and the Macedonian Catholic Church are recognized in the Annuario Pontificio which lists the Apostolic Exarchate of Macedonia separately from the other two jurisdictions, which are included under “Byzantines of the Eparchy of Križevci.”

Fr. Roberson, writes:

"the Serbs in Croatia were given their own diocesan bishop by Pope Pius VI on June 17, 1777, with his see at Križevci, near Zagreb

"The diocese of Križevci was extended to embrace all the Greek Catholics in Yugoslavia when the country was founded after World War I. The diocese included five distinct groups: some ethnic Serbs in Croatia, Ruthenians who had emigrated from Slovakia around 1750, Ukrainians who emigrated from Galicia in about 1900, Slavic Macedonians in the south of the country who became Catholic through missionary activity in the 19th century, and a few Romanians in the Yugoslavian Banat.

After the breakup of Yugoslavia into several independent republics in 1991, new arrangements were necessary for the Greek Catholics in the region. In 2001 an Apostolic Exarchate was established for Greek Catholics in the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia, headed by the Latin Bishop of Skopje, presently Kiro Stojanov (born 1959, appointed 2005). It now has five parishes and 11,491 faithful. In 2003 an Apostolic Exarchate was created for Greek Catholics in Serbia and Montenegro, headed by Bishop Djura Džudžar (born 1954, appointed 2003). It has 21 parishes and 22,720 faithful, consisting mostly of a group of ethnic Rusyn Greek Catholics in the region of Vojvodina. The diocese of Križevci now includes Croatia, Slovenia and Bosnia-Herzegovina. Headed by Bishop Slavomir Miklovš (born 1934, appointed 1983), it has 21,480 faithful in 44 parishes. Since 1966 the diocesan offices have been located in Zagreb."

cnewa.org/default.aspx?ID=73&pagetypeID=9&sitecode=HQ&pageno=1

Statistics:

cnewa.org/source-images/Roberson-eastcath-statistics/eastcatholic-stat10.pdf

 

[Diak]

There are no Serbian Greek-Catholic parishes in the diaspora. In the US, immigrant faithful from Serbia would be committed to the pastoral care of the Byzantine (Ruthenian) Metropolia, as are the faithful of the parent Croat Greek-Catholic Church. (There is a single Croat GC parish extant in the Eparchy of Parma of the Ruthenians - St Nicholas the Wonderworker Croatian Greek-Catholic Church in Cleveland.)

Not exactly. All of the priests from Krizhevci I have met in North America are or were all working in UGCC parishes. Fr. Marijan Procyk, the pastor at St. Nicholas in Buffalo, for example is from Bosnia. Fr. Kiril Manolev also working in the UGCC Eparchy of Stamford is Macedonian. The priest who preached the Lenten mission at Sts. Volodymyr and Olha in Chicago earlier this year is also originally from Bosnia.

 

[Ignatios]

okay, so I think that we all are in agreement that there is no “Serbian Catholic Church” since no one provided any evidence of its existence.
Thank you and may GOD bless you all†††

 

[Diakonia]

Not exactly. All of the priests from Krizhevci I have met in North America are or were all working in UGCC parishes. Fr. Marijan Procyk, the pastor at St. Nicholas in Buffalo, for example is from Bosnia. Fr. Kiril Manolev also working in the UGCC Eparchy of Stamford is Macedonian. The priest who preached the Lenten mission at Sts. Volodymyr and Olha in Chicago earlier this year is also originally from Bosnia.

Deacon,

That may be the reality of now (and I know that it is) but, from a historic standpoint, we both know that the terms of the bulla erecting the Ruthenian Exarchate formally committed pastoral care of the Croats, Magyars, and Slovaks to its jurisdiction. Which is what I said was the case - and, the realities aside - those provisions still are in effect, de jure, if not de facto.

And, it was for the reason of the provisions that St Nicholas - and the other Croat Greek-Catholic parish, now of blessed memory, - were accepted to the Ruthenian jurisdiction. Prior to being accepted, they had maintained a quasi-independent existence, relying on the omophor of Krizevci.

 

[Diakonia]

okay, so I think that we all are in agreement that there is no “Serbian Catholic Church” since no one provided any evidence of its existence.
Thank you and may GOD bless you all†††

True enough. There are Serbian Greek-Catholics, although not a significant number of them, but no Serbian Greek-Catholic Church.

 

[Diak]

Deacon,

That may be the reality of now (and I know that it is) but, from a historic standpoint, we both know that the terms of the bulla erecting the Ruthenian Exarchate formally committed pastoral care of the Croats, Magyars, and Slovaks to its jurisdiction. Which is what I said was the case - and, the realities aside - those provisions still are in effect, de jure, if not de facto.

And, it was for the reason of the provisions that St Nicholas - and the other Croat Greek-Catholic parish, now of blessed memory, - were accepted to the Ruthenian jurisdiction. Prior to being accepted, they had maintained a quasi-independent existence, relying on the omophor of Krizevci.

Usually one doesn’t put reality aside. I would have to go back and reread *Pittburgensis Ruthenorum * to see if the original pastoral provision from the original bull separating the Pittsburgh Exarchate from Philadelphia was explicitly extended. If not, it may only be questionably de jure.

Time is also another significant factor; St. Nicholas was established in the very early 1900s and was involved in the original division of parishes between the two Exarchates. The more recent waves of Greek Catholic refugees and immigrants from the Krizhevci area post-World War II has almost entirely been to UGCC parishes. Particularities of law aside, they went to the parishes they wanted to.

I suppose another argument can be made that those of Galician provenance or descended from the Union of Brest could place themselves in parishes of the Philadelphia Metropolia anyway. In any case I know of no historical complaint from any BCCA hierarch to the UGCC or Rome over this issue, and it is now what it is fifty plus years after the end of World War II.

 

[Alveus_Lacuna]

For almost all Serbs if one was to convert to Catholicism or anything else then they would no longer be Serbian. The national identity and the region are inextricably connected for them. If one converted, they would become Croatian and considered a traitor. They refer to Orthodoxy there as “the Serbian Religion”. My bishop once told a story of how his mother was concerned that he was going to be working with the Russians. He tried explaining that they too were Orthodox, but she just kept asking: “Yes, but are they Serbian?”

Hard for Americans to understand, but it’s just the way it works there.

 

[Ignatios]

For almost all Serbs if one was to convert to Catholicism or anything else then they would no longer be Serbian. The national identity and the region are inextricably connected for them. If one converted, they would become Croatian and considered a traitor. They refer to Orthodoxy there as “the Serbian Religion”. My bishop once told a story of how his mother was concerned that he was going to be working with the Russians. He tried explaining that they too were Orthodox, but she just kept asking: “Yes, but are they Serbian?”

Hard for Americans to understand, but it’s just the way it works there.

This is exactly how I understand it from my many Serbian Friends, to cease to be Orthodox you cease to be Serbian, to them Orthodoxy goes along with Serb, History tells that the Muslims and I believe the Croats at one point they were Orthodox and they converted thus they ceased to be recognized as Serbs, the Muslims now are recognized as Bosnians and the Catholics are as Croats.