Memorandum 2011

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Esdra

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Hi folks,

today I’ve read an article in the “Tyrolean Daily News” about the “Memorandum 2011”.
It was about that that this Memorandum is a point of lively discussion among theologians in Europe at the moment.

I didn’t know about that Memorandum, and so googled it and read it.
I’d like to share it with you: Click here.

This memorandum dates February 4, 2011.

Many theologians already have signed it. But there are also other voices like a group of laity in Germany who say that the Church firmly has to stick on the doctrine of the Holy See in Rome.

I’d like to hear your opinions on this memorandum.

I’ll start: I was really astonished how far the thoughts of these theologians go, they even consider to put the priesthood an a free basis (meaning that also married men can become priest) or women ordination.
I really like this memorandum and would sign it at once, if I were asked to.
IMO, these are steps in the right direction to go through the persistent crisis of the (R)CC. *

Yours, in Christ,*
 
And here also, to be fair, the “anti-memorandum”.

Sadly enough I’ve found it in German only. 😦
 
At first, I thought it was a joke. So I laughed.

Then, I realised it was serious, and I got annoyed.

They say the Church should support the law. What law? The laws of Russia? Models of fairness, just ask any Chechen. The laws of Sweden, that forbid parents to teach their own children? The laws of the US, that execute the poorest people?

They say the Church should change its teaching on homosexuality. Why? By whose authority? Where in the bible does it say to do that, even remotely?

They say the Church should accept divorce. How many? Two? Three? Five? What about twenty?

You sign it if you want.
 
Warrenton said:
At first, I thought it was a joke. So I laughed.

Then, I realised it was serious, and I got annoyed.

But then I got happy again, because I realized there really is a place for all the morons in the world.

It is the universities, working as professors.

They say the Church should support the law. What law? The laws of Russia? Models of fairness, just ask any Chechen. The laws of Sweden, that forbid parents to teach their own children? The laws of the US, that execute the poorest people?

They say the Church should change its teaching on homosexuality. Why? By whose authority? Where in the bible does it say to do that, even remotely?

They say the Church should accept divorce. How many? Two? Three? Five? What about twenty?

You sign it if you want. Then pass me the bong you’re smoking, and maybe I’ll sign it too, when I’m high enough!
Click to expand...
Yes, please keep this thread charitable!
No attacking of people. (Btw, this is against the CAF rules).

This is a sincere discussion at the moment here in Europe.
And I think, and it’s my right to think so, that the authors are right that there need to be reforms in the RCC. (I think a decline of 80,000 Catholics here in Austria says enough!)
 
Theologians operate in a secular world; often forgetting and then tending toward a belief that their ideas are the tail that wags the dog.

It just ain’t so in the Catholic Church.
 
Memoradum 2011

“4. Freedom of Conscience: Respect for individual conscience means placing trust in people’s ability to make decisions and carry responsibility. It is also the task of the Church to support this capability; this task must not revert to paternalism. It is especially important to take this seriously in the realm of personal life decisions and individual life styles. The Church’s esteem for marriage and for the unmarried form of life goes without saying. But this does not require the exclusion of people who responsibly live out love, faithfulness, and mutual care in **same-sex partnerships **or in a remarriage after divorce.”

Freedom of conscience? What exactly are they speaking about when they refer to the application of mortal sin? Which other mortal sin would they like changed to venial?

My suggestion would be that these theologians be given the opportunity to find employment as instructors on Episcopalian or ELCA campuses.
 
It just gets better 😃

What a hoot.

“2. Parish Community: Christian communities should be places where people share spiritual and material goods with one another… The Church also needs married priests and women in ordained ministry.”
 
If the Catholic Church operated like a business, the Pope would have fired these theologians faster than I can type Republican House of Representative Christopher Lee.

I can only pray.

Be very very careful which ‘catholic’ college you select, either for yourself or for your children.

Bio on Maureen Junker - Kenny:

tcd.ie/Religions_Theology/staff/junker-kenny_maureen.php

The Memo 2011 manifesto reads like a belligerent child wrote it.
 
“The dialogue process that has already begun in the Church **can lead to liberation and a new departure **only when all participants are ready to take up the pressing questions.”

And…the pressing questions needing “liberation” and a “new departure”?

Changing Scripture to fit present day morality in society?
Woman priests?
Ending chastity and celibacy standards for all religious?
Normalizing homosexual acts?
Ordained noncelibate SSA males and females?
Homosexual marriages?
 
Memorandum of a Catholic on the crisis of theologians:
*
If you align yourself with Satan you will loose the cultural war!*

Blessings
 
Barbkw said:
My suggestion would be that these theologians be given the opportunity to find employment as instructors on Episcopalian or ELCA campuses.
Click to expand...
Don’t forget that we are speaking of Germany and Austria. There’s no Episcopolian Church in German speaking countries. 😉 - Except you want to say that the Old Catholic Church/Utrecht is the same as the Episcopolean Church in the US. ;=
Well, and the ELCA would be in Germany the Lutheran Evangelical Church of Germany. (short: EKD)

Well, despite the negative answers concerning this Memorandum, I think they have fair points.
There did many things go wrong in the Church in the past years. And I also think that the danger is very high that the Church waits so long until the things (concerning missuse etc) are forgotten and then continue like they did before.

Although, to be fair, I also don’t think that these liberal points would change anything.
I mean the Lutheran Church in Germany, i.e. are very liberal as well - nevertheless they also have to struggle with loss of members.

I don’t know what could be done to reach people nowadays.
I think it’s getting harder and harder to reach the people with Christianity… - No matter which Church or denomination in this case, IMO.
 
Changing Scripture to fit present day morality in society?
Woman priests?
Ending chastity and celibacy standards for all religious?
Normalizing homosexual acts?
Ordained noncelibate SSA males and females?
Homosexual marriages?
Click to expand...
People can talk, proclaim, pronounce, argue, scream, denounce, suggest and demand till the cows come home.
The One Holy Catholic Church will NEVER be bullied into changing any doctrine whatsoever and IF they decide on a modification to a disipline, it will take years and years; if not decades or even centurys.
That is why HMC is the One Church and why I spent 2 and 1/2 years in R.C.I.A. just so I could be a member. The Holy Church established by Jesus Christ Himself will never be deterred from truth. 🙂
BTW, I always find it interesting that most of the protest against the doctrines of HMC are by non-Catholics and cafeteria types.
 
What a joke.

Yes, let’s throw off the yoke of the Holy Spirit and decide for ourselves who our priests & bishops are, what are sins and what aren’t, etc. and that will lend more “credibility” to the church. :rolleyes:

Good luck with that - I’ll stick with the Church that Christ founded - even though it’s made up with sinners like myself who make mistakes.
 
Esdra said:
Yes, please keep this thread charitable!
No attacking of people. (Btw, this is against the CAF rules).

This is a sincere discussion at the moment here in Europe.
And I think, and it’s my right to think so, that the authors are right that there need to be reforms in the RCC. (I think a decline of 80,000 Catholics here in Austria says enough!)
Click to expand...
These so-called scholars are so bereft of any original idea that they have to steal one from a German Augustinian who died 500 years ago. Using the sex scandals to justify their suggestions is revolting and cynical. They love the sex scandal, because it boosts their agenda.

The mentality of these “theologians” is exactly the same as the mentality of Austrians who reacted to the assasination of Dolfuss by donning a red and black armband. “Become like those who hate you, then there will be amity.”

You’re in Europe, so tell me: did the anschluss “solve” anything?

Use logic: saying that abolishing the priesthood will stop priests from having sex with juveniles is like saying abolishing the crime of murder will stop people killing each other.

The same people will still do the same act, only their label will change.

You may claim that this is a “discussion” in Austria. It may well be. But I deny that it is a “serious” discussion, any more than “Rock Me Amadeus” was serious Austrian music.

To read manifesto 2011, one would think that no ordinary Fritz on the Ringstrasse ever had sex with a 15 year old. What does anyone think Falco was doing on Hispaniola Island when he died, praying to the Infant of Prague?

Who do you think is fueling the enormous legal sex industry in Germany? The Dominicans? The Jesuits? Maybe the Discalced Carmelites? How about ordinary German men? Do you think all of the people servicing their lusts are fully mature German frau, looking for a few more Euros so they can upgrade the Audi to a Benz? How are they going to “purify” the Church?

Let me tell you something about this scandal: it is the result of the same corruption in society that exists from top to bottom. The Church is attacked because it shifts the blame from guilty people and guilty governments who take the money and fail to govern. It buys them additional time from having to face the truth about themselves. The Church is the only institution in the West that even attempts to reform itself.

I regret if anything I wrote hurt your feelings. That manifesto, however, is poison.
 
I beg to differ. The “manifesto 2011” mentality is blatantly of appeasement and accomodation. The authors invite the comparison.
 
Warrenton said:
…
Click to expand...
In no point I violated against the forum rules!

This is the popular media section, you know? I’ve simply posted what I’ve read and what’s in the media.

I won’t stand for the suggestive remark, - the comparison to Nazi-Germany (and Austria)!

As well won’t stand for the suggestive remark to call me a junkie! (first post of you on page one of this thread!)

You have violated already twice against the forum rules and defiled my thread completely. I have reported your post to the mods.

Yours,
 
Again, I beg to differ. When a group of self-proclaimed Catholic theologians blandly suggests disestablishing the Church, its sacraments, and the very concept of right and wrong, they’ve placed they’ve “paid their money and taken their choice,” to paraphrase Aldous Huxley.

What is hyperbolic is their manifesto. They just chose to couch it in the arid phraseology of modern academe.

If I just call this manifesto the product of a bunch of pseudo intellectual hypocrites, posing as Catholic thinkers for the sole purpose of fleecing their next paycheck and scrounging some cheap notariety, will that be less hyperbolic?
 
Esdra said:
This is the popular media section, you know? I’ve simply posted what I’ve read and what’s in the media.
Click to expand...
You went farther than that. You wrote “I would sign it if I were asked to.” Or words closely to that effect, in your first post.
 
Warrenton said:
At first, I thought it was a joke. So I laughed.

Then, I realised it was serious, and I got annoyed.

They say the Church should support the law. What law? The laws of Russia? Models of fairness, just ask any Chechen. The laws of Sweden, that forbid parents to teach their own children? The laws of the US, that execute the poorest people?

They say the Church should change its teaching on homosexuality. Why? By whose authority? Where in the bible does it say to do that, even remotely?

They say the Church should accept divorce. How many? Two? Three? Five? What about twenty?

You sign it if you want
Click to expand...
👍👍
Sounds like something from “We Are Church” to me.
 
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