Men and Catholic Spirituality?

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Discerning_Life

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Well, obviously I’m a woman, but I’ve always wondered how men managed to have such a close relationship with God.
  1. God is described in our religion as masculine.
  2. G.K. Chesterton once said, “Let your religion be less of a theory and more of a love affair.”
  3. Therefore, love and intimacy are associated with religion…but how are men having this close relationship with a masculine God? Under what titles do they view God?
Here’s another example from St. John of the Cross’s “Dark Night of the Soul”:
"Upon my flowering breast
which I kept wholly for him alone,
there he lay sleeping,
and I caressing him
there in a breeze from the fanning cedars.

When the breeze blew from the turret,
as I parted his hair,
it wounded my neck
with its gentle hand,
suspending all my senses.

I abandoned and forgot myself,
laying my face on my Beloved;
all things ceased; I went out from myself,
leaving my cares
forgotten among the lilies."

Again…such intimate terms which I would totally understand if a girl wrote it, but no, it was written by a man to describe a male God. Can anyone explain??? I’m really confused (especially in a religion that doesn’t promote homosexual unions).
 
From your post, I gather that you think a love affair is based only sexuality, only on erotic attraction. St John of the Cross may lead you to believe this approach, but I think you are reading him too literally and perhaps need guidance on him (I’d recommend Fr Dubay’s The Fire Within). This same misreading happens when some read the Song of Songs – that it is a book solely about marital, sexual love. It goes much deeper.

I’d recommend that you first meditate more deeply on love, and this can be aided by reading C. S. Lewis’ The Four Loves. The Four Loves are storge/affection, philia/friendship, eros/romance, agape (charity)/unconditional love. Wikipedia has a good, succinct summation.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Four_Loves
 
Splagchnizomai said:
From your post, I gather that you think a love affair is based only sexuality, only on erotic attraction. St John of the Cross may lead you to believe this approach, but I think you are reading him too literally and perhaps need guidance on him (I’d recommend Fr Dubay’s The Fire Within). This same misreading happens when some read the Song of Songs – that it is a book solely about marital, sexual love. It goes much deeper.

I’d recommend that you first meditate more deeply on love, and this can be aided by reading C. S. Lewis’ The Four Loves. The Four Loves are storge/affection, philia/friendship, eros/romance, agape (charity)/unconditional love. Wikipedia has a good, succinct summation.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Four_Loves
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I second this post. 👍
 
While Christ in His human nature is a man, God in his divine nature transcends masculinity and femininity. When we refer to God the Father, we are not saying He is a male human being, though He is the Father, except His fatherhood is of a different kind.
P.S. At least that is my understanding. Please correct me if I’m wrong; I don’t want to say anything heretical :eek: :rolleyes:
 
irishOntarian said:
While Christ in His human nature is a man, God in his divine nature transcends masculinity and femininity. When we refer to God the Father, we are not saying He is a male human being, though He is the Father, except His fatherhood is of a different kind.
P.S. At least that is my understanding. Please correct me if I’m wrong; I don’t want to say anything heretical :eek: :rolleyes:
Click to expand...
I have the same understanding since embracing Catholicism. As a Protestant I never recall hearing a discussion about it but it seems pretty clear that the Church teaches that God is neither male or female. As creator God is unencumbered by any of the limitations that we humans, the creation have, including gender.

Just my opinion by since God is clearly paternalistic in so many ways with regards to mankind, I suspect that is why God has been viewed in masculine terms as Father.
 
God is the one who makes us whole, the only one who completes any of us regardless of our gender. That is really what we yearn for in any human relationship. I might add that therein is the value of celibacy. We encounter our need & yearning undistracted by any lenetive & incomplete physical relief. But that is a difficult calling that very few have until midlife.
 
Discerning_Life said:
Well, obviously I’m a woman, but I’ve always wondered how men managed to have such a close relationship with God.
  1. God is described in our religion as masculine.
  2. G.K. Chesterton once said, “Let your religion be less of a theory and more of a love affair.”
  3. Therefore, love and intimacy are associated with religion…but how are men having this close relationship with a masculine God? Under what titles do they view God?
Here’s another example from St. John of the Cross’s “Dark Night of the Soul”:
"Upon my flowering breast
which I kept wholly for him alone,
there he lay sleeping,
and I caressing him
there in a breeze from the fanning cedars.

When the breeze blew from the turret,
as I parted his hair,
it wounded my neck
with its gentle hand,
suspending all my senses.

I abandoned and forgot myself,
laying my face on my Beloved;
all things ceased; I went out from myself,
leaving my cares
forgotten among the lilies."

Again…such intimate terms which I would totally understand if a girl wrote it, but no, it was written by a man to describe a male God. Can anyone explain??? I’m really confused (especially in a religion that doesn’t promote homosexual unions).
Click to expand...
You should read The Ascent of Mount Carmel and then Dark night of the Soul as if they were not separate. The Great Saint is speaking on many levels. Re-read it as if a Loving Father were speaking of His young Son.

peace
 
Discerning_Life said:
Well, obviously I’m a woman, but I’ve always wondered how men managed to have such a close relationship with God.
  1. God is described in our religion as masculine.
  2. G.K. Chesterton once said, “Let your religion be less of a theory and more of a love affair.”
  3. Therefore, love and intimacy are associated with religion…but how are men having this close relationship with a masculine God? Under what titles do they view God?
Here’s another example from St. John of the Cross’s “Dark Night of the Soul”:
"Upon my flowering breast
which I kept wholly for him alone,
there he lay sleeping,
and I caressing him
there in a breeze from the fanning cedars.

When the breeze blew from the turret,
as I parted his hair,
it wounded my neck
with its gentle hand,
suspending all my senses.

I abandoned and forgot myself,
laying my face on my Beloved;
all things ceased; I went out from myself,
leaving my cares
forgotten among the lilies."

Again…such intimate terms which I would totally understand if a girl wrote it, but no, it was written by a man to describe a male God. Can anyone explain??? I’m really confused (especially in a religion that doesn’t promote homosexual unions).
Click to expand...
When one reads St. John of the Cross in Spanish, it does not say what it says above. There are a number of complications here.
  1. The Spanish and English pronouns do not have the same meaning. “El” in Spanish can be either masculine or gender neutral, which can then be applied to God without the sexual implications.
  2. Breast (pecho) in Spanish is used for the mammary glands, the chest and the heart. In the original, John is speaking of the Beloved whom one carries and caresses in the heart.
  3. John wrote in the 16the century. That Spanish is no longer spoken or used anywhere. Unlike English, Spanish evolves much more quickly. John and Teresa’s Spanish was a hybrid of Latin, Arabic and Hebrew, making it very difficult to translate into English while maintaining the cadence of the poetry. Some words have to be replaced by synonyms to maintain the rhythm and cadence. The literal translation would sound horrible to our ears.
How do I know this? I got my STD on Teresian and Franciscan Theology. I had to read the writings of the early Franciscans and the Carmelite reformers in their original text. It was very difficult to get a precise translation. One of my professors was Father Dubay. He taught us from his book, The Fire Within. Another was Fr. Benedict, CFR and he taught us the religious psychology in the writings. Father D. explains it very well. I second the motion to read his book.

Another excellent resource is The Collected Works of St. John of the Cross, translated by Kieran Kavanaugh, OCD and Otilio Rodriguez, OCD. They not only translate, but they give you the original text and extensive commentaries as you read along.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
I should have added that the male Spiritual Masters write in feminine tones. It’s traditional. St. Francis refers to himself as mother and to Jesus as spouse, brother and son. St. John compares the love between the soul and the Beloved as that between the bride and the groom, with Man being the bride.

There are different branches of theology. Ascetical and Mystical Theology is very different from Systematic Theology. Systematic Theology is arid in tone or masculine, such as the writings of St. Augustine, St. Bonaventure and St. Thomas Aquinas. Systematic Theology deals in the realm of concepts.

Spiritual Theology deals in the realm of relationship. It begins with the Church and the Church is feminine. A spiritual master would not write in the masculine, because he or she is writing as part of the Church. He writes in the feminine. This comes through very strongly in the writings of St. Catherine of Sienna. She refers to the soul as “she” when in Latin and Italian, the word for soul is masculine. She uses “la” in front of the word soul. She’s writing as part of the Church, which is bride.

We see this in the writings of Augustine. His writings on dogma are very masculine, almost dry. His writings on the spiritual journey are very feminine and very childlike. There is a tenderness to them. You can pick up the change in tone in the Confessions as you navigate through it. He flips back and fourth. In the original it’s disconcerting, because he switches back and forth without warning. In English, it sounds horrible. Translators have had to modify the wording to make it flow. The translations in the Romance languages are closer to the original, because of the syntax and semantics of the Romance languages.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
Wow…thank you everyone.

Yes, I know I should probably look beyond the seemingly erotic nature of the poem because that was not its intent. It’s just that women’s relationship to God somehow works “better”…i.e. a nun is a “bride of Christ” while a priest is “married to the Church” (which doesn’t seem very personal. I saw ONE Carmelite monastery of monks say they were the “husbands of Mary.” It seems religious life often tries to make these romantic relationships to link God to us. I think it’s cool and everything, but I wondered how the average guy thought about it. What is your favorite title for God, guys?

Thank you JReducation for the explanations of the Spanish to English translations; those were very helpful. I’m also quite interested in the differences between Systematic, Ascetical, Mystical, and Spiritual Theology. Any extra information on that would be greatly appreciated.

I know in reality God has no gender. That doesn’t change the seemingly awkward way (to me) man has viewed God over the centuries. Can you please give me some personal examples of how you view God? Is it similar or different to how John of the Cross views Him?
 
Discerning_Life said:
Wow…thank you everyone.

Yes, I know I should probably look beyond the seemingly erotic nature of the poem because that was not its intent. It’s just that women’s relationship to God somehow works “better”…i.e. a nun is a “bride of Christ” while a priest is “married to the Church” (which doesn’t seem very personal. I saw ONE Carmelite monastery of monks say they were the “husbands of Mary.” It seems religious life often tries to make these romantic relationships to link God to us. I think it’s cool and everything, but I wondered how the average guy thought about it. What is your favorite title for God, guys?

Thank you JReducation for the explanations of the Spanish to English translations; those were very helpful. I’m also quite interested in the differences between Systematic, Ascetical, Mystical, and Spiritual Theology. Any extra information on that would be greatly appreciated.

I know in reality God has no gender. That doesn’t change the seemingly awkward way (to me) man has viewed God over the centuries. Can you please give me some personal examples of how you view God? Is it similar or different to how John of the Cross views Him?
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King Yahweh I of Heaven & Eternity.

God is peace. True. But he is the light that every man on his way to Hell (metaphor) relies on. You give me a weapon and you point me to where the Devil is and I’ll kill him. That should put some things into perspective. 🙂

Most men usually don’t talk about these things. But that would be cause we’re not priests like St. Francis or any of these simple peace-loving Popes of the modern world. A man’s heart is always at war. You have your occasional man who is more like a woman, but that’s their prerogative.

Maybe we’re all very different, but you wanted an opinion from a man. Well, there it is.

Pax tecum
-Karl
 
A man can love his father, his brother, his son and his friend as intensely as he can love a woman, and even sacrifice his life for another man, but it’s not a sexual love.

St John’s of the Cross’s words do sound odd, but in part, that might be because of cultural and linguistic differences, as I think there’s also a little bit of cultural paranoia that male affection is looked down upon and is seen as necessarily equivalent to homosexuality. For us, it’s incredibly odd that Russian men may kiss each other when they greet, but Judas betrayed Jesus with a kiss, and that wasn’t an unusual gesture in that culture either.

Even in some older English writings, one may feel disconcerted by the affection and endearment some men express for each other, but these modern suspicions are a result of our modern anglophone culture, which generally forbids the expression of affection between men, and historically, they are rather more the exception than the rule.

Because of our modern English language and our sex-obsessed culture, we are likely to read sexual connotations into words where that didn’t even cross the author’s mind, because in our culture, men subconsciously self-censor their words and behaviour so as not to be misconstrued. I think therefore that in many cases it might also be a mistake to impute some sort of effeminacy onto the author as a way of explaining away the things we see through our own cultural lens. The author simply couldn’t have imagined that English-speaking people hundreds of years down the line would see this manner of expression as gay. And we live in very paranoid times.
 
There is much imagery in scripture where God is portrayed as masculine, but also plenty that is maternal and feminine too, or else gender neutral.

Think of the lines from Isaiah: ‘does a mother forget her baby? Or a woman the child she has borne? Even if these forget, I will not forget my people’

Or where the very masculine Jeremiah writes ‘you have seduced me Lord, and I let myself be seduced’.

What about Our Lord saying of Jerusalem ‘how often I have longed to gather you to me like a mother hen her chicks’. Or John the beloved disciple laying his head, similar to the imagery John of the Cross uses, on Jesus’ breast at the Last Supper.

This is in addition to those that have already been mentioned like Song of Songs.

There are other ways to look at it too - think of a young boy giving his father or older brother a hug or kiss, for example, or having a nap with a little playmate - totally innocent and yet a lot of physical affection going on.
 
CarloMagnus said:
King Yahweh I of Heaven & Eternity.

God is peace. True. But he is the light that every man on his way to Hell (metaphor) relies on. You give me a weapon and you point me to where the Devil is and I’ll kill him. That should put some things into perspective. 🙂

Most men usually don’t talk about these things. But that would be cause we’re not priests like St. Francis or any of these simple peace-loving Popes of the modern world.
Click to expand...
St. Francis of Assisi was never an ordained cleric. He was first a lay penitent and after 1209 a consecrated religious and the founder and superior general of his three orders. He was a most manly man who was also very gentle, a lover of peace and promoter of peace and docility before in the relationship with God and in Catholic Spirituality.

He drew the line between the Church Militant and the Church Belligerent. He understood that to be part of the Church Militant was not about being at war with something external, but with something more powerful, our desire to be in control and our refusal to be surrender that which we hold most sacred: our opinions, our wishes, our desires and our worldview. He preached that the real battle of the Church Militant with with himself. Man would never be able to reject sin, if he was unwilling to let go of his preconceived notions of himself and of God. Without the rejection of sin, peace - interior and political - was unattainable.

His theology does not focus on fighting a devil that is an anthropomorphism, but the real devil himself, the one who tempted Adam and tempted Jesus - the devil of power, lust, and disobedience. Make no mistake about it, this devil is very real and has a life of his own. But he will not be killed by our belligerence. He will only be killed by our submission to the Will of the Father as expressed through the Church.

Therefore, Francis understood and embraced a spirituality that was both Trinitarian and ecclesiastical. The ultimate goal of man is to reach the Father by follow Jesus. To follow Jesus we must understand him. That understanding comes from the Holy Spirit who speaks through the Church. The Church gives us tradition and scripture. She interprets tradition and scripture.

To be in a covenant relationship with God, once must be in communion of faith, sacraments and governance with the Church. This was Francis’ manly view of the Christian life.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
So accept everything, separately and in general, wherever it comes from and whatever its origin, in silence and peace, and with an equal mind, as coming to you from a father’s hand and his divine providence. So render your imagination bare of the images of all physical things as is appropriate to your state and profession, so that you can cling to him with a bare and undivided mind, as you have so often and so completely vowed to do, without anything whatever being able to come between your soul and him, so that you can pass purely and unwaveringly from the wounds of his humanity into the light of his divinity.

On Cleaving to God
De Adhaerendo Deo
by
St. Albert the Great, Doctor of the Church

peace
 
JReducation said:
St. Francis of Assisi was never an ordained cleric. He was first a lay penitent and after 1209 a consecrated religious and the founder and superior general of his three orders. He was a most manly man who was also very gentle, a lover of peace and promoter of peace and docility before in the relationship with God and in Catholic Spirituality.

He drew the line between the Church Militant and the Church Belligerent. He understood that to be part of the Church Militant was not about being at war with something external, but with something more powerful, our desire to be in control and our refusal to be surrender that which we hold most sacred: our opinions, our wishes, our desires and our worldview. He preached that the real battle of the Church Militant with with himself. Man would never be able to reject sin, if he was unwilling to let go of his preconceived notions of himself and of God. Without the rejection of sin, peace - interior and political - was unattainable.

His theology does not focus on fighting a devil that is an anthropomorphism, but the real devil himself, the one who tempted Adam and tempted Jesus - the devil of power, lust, and disobedience. Make no mistake about it, this devil is very real and has a life of his own. But he will not be killed by our belligerence. He will only be killed by our submission to the Will of the Father as expressed through the Church.

Therefore, Francis understood and embraced a spirituality that was both Trinitarian and ecclesiastical. The ultimate goal of man is to reach the Father by follow Jesus. To follow Jesus we must understand him. That understanding comes from the Holy Spirit who speaks through the Church. The Church gives us tradition and scripture. She interprets tradition and scripture.

To be in a covenant relationship with God, once must be in communion of faith, sacraments and governance with the Church. This was Francis’ manly view of the Christian life.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
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Awesome. Thanks, Brother, for this wonderful information! 🙂
 
Discerning_Life said:
Well, obviously I’m a woman, but I’ve always wondered how men managed to have such a close relationship with God.
  1. God is described in our religion as masculine.
  2. G.K. Chesterton once said, “Let your religion be less of a theory and more of a love affair.”
  3. Therefore, love and intimacy are associated with religion…but how are men having this close relationship with a masculine God? Under what titles do they view God?
Here’s another example from St. John of the Cross’s “Dark Night of the Soul”:
"Upon my flowering breast
which I kept wholly for him alone,
there he lay sleeping,
and I caressing him
there in a breeze from the fanning cedars.

When the breeze blew from the turret,
as I parted his hair,
it wounded my neck
with its gentle hand,
suspending all my senses.

I abandoned and forgot myself,
laying my face on my Beloved;
all things ceased; I went out from myself,
leaving my cares
forgotten among the lilies."

Again…such intimate terms which I would totally understand if a girl wrote it, but no, it was written by a man to describe a male God. Can anyone explain??? I’m really confused (especially in a religion that doesn’t promote homosexual unions).
Click to expand...
 
40.png
thomas_pesaresi:
:confused:
 
The love we have for God is spiritual and heart centered. It is agape and has nothing to do with the sex of the person. It is found by obediance and perseverence only.
 
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