Men prefer debt free virgins

[Xantippe]

It is optimal to get ahead of one’s expenses and be able to pay cash for cars, etc., but that’s going to be difficult/impractical for a young adult who is suddenly responsible for himself or herself.

For example, my husband and I bought our first car in our 30s (!) after we moved to TX and weren’t going to be able to live without a car. We bought a moderate-priced car ($11k-ish), paid it off as soon as we could along with all of our other debt (in 2-3 years), kept the car for 10 years, and paid cash for the next car we bought. This was not by-the-book Dave Ramsey, but by the time we bought our first car, we were a family of 4. We would like to pay cash for our cars going forward.

It makes a big difference not to have to start from nothing as a young adult.

I should mention that Dave Ramsey suggests that kids should be encouraged to work and save for a car in high school, and that if feasible, parents consider matching kids’ car savings. This assumes a reasonably functional family–for example that parents won’t appropriate kids’ money or just plain need it.

 

[alice24]

For example, my husband and I bought our first car in our 30s

Same here. I´m making my driving licence now in my late 20s and my husband starts next year with 30. We hadn´t money for it, not to speak of money for a car itself.
We started with nothing, and we decided to keep some loans and choose a more slow payback plan to have a bit more “fluid” cash in case of emergencies. When I look back on my student appartment days, I payed more per month for washing outside (no own machine), food (not able to buy larger numbers of storable products even when they were 20% off in sale) or fixing damaged things than now as I can react more quickly simply because we have a bit unbound money in the backside.
Not to mention the stress. I once got in debt because I had a long lasting lung infection and the costs for hospital and drugs were over my budget. I had to take the overdraft facility of my bank because I had no securities to pay for it, and I was simply desparate. For reasons like this we decided to bever be without an emergency money pot, no matter if this is loaned money or spared money.

 

[Xantippe]

Same here. I´m making my driving licence now in my late 20s and my husband starts next year with 30. We hadn´t money for it, not to speak of money for a car itself.

I left home for college at 16 with no driver’s license. My mom had cancer my last year at home–so I didn’t do the usual school driver’s ed. And then I was phobic about driving–but nobody seriously tried to teach me to drive. When I got married, my husband didn’t have a driver’s license either.

It is quite the Catch-22 to not have a driver’s license as a young adult, because if you don’t have a car (and can’t afford a car) why should you try for a driver’s license and how will you practice driving, but if you don’t have a driver’s license, why should you buy a car? And how do you go about buying a car?

We lived in bigger cities with reasonable public transportation, so initially I didn’t need it (even with kids). But then we moved to Texas, and we suddenly did need a car. Fortunately, his dad came and gave him hours of lessons and my husband took some commercial lessons, too. A colleague helped my husband choose and buy a car and we were off. And then the next summer, I took a couple weeks of commercial driving lessons. But even just the lessons were hundreds of dollars per week. My husband was 34 and I was nearly 33 before we were able to get our licenses.

But that’s what life can be like if you don’t get the right start–you wind up with weird problems. It’s very difficult to bootstrap your way out of that without help or money.

 

[alice24]

But that’s what life can be like if you don’t get the right start–you wind up with weird problems. It’s very difficult to bootstrap your way out of that without help or money.

Yes, so true. In our case, public transportation was availible (not always good in some areas - I once was in danger to lose a job because the bus drivers striked and I could´t pay the taxi so often. Then, we never got the better payed jobs because, suprise surprise, they wanted people with driving license. Fortunately, I worked longer at university iself, and their conditions are very friendly when it comes to flexible working times or taking a day off because the bus doesn´t arrived, even when the payment was less than at my cleaning jobs.
I´m sorry for your mother having been so sick. I also left with 16, also with a sick mother, but more because she was clinical depressive and I simply didn´t endured it anymore. A line of bad decisions followed, because I was simply not prepared to keep my head on my shoulders while working full time and doing school stuff on my own.

 

[Xantippe]

. I also left with 16, also with a sick mother, but more because she was clinical depressive and I simply didn´t endured it anymore. A line of bad decisions followed, because I was simply not prepared to keep my head on my shoulders while working full time and doing school stuff on my own.

I didn’t exactly leave home in the same sense, because I came back for the summer and Christmas holidays–but the last whole year I spent living at home was when I was 15.

 

[DarkLight]

I intended to save up and buy a car cash only. (This was about a year ago.) But it was becoming increasingly clear that I had to at least have the ability to get away, and in this area a car is crucial to that. Otherwise I’d be burning all my energy and sanity that was supposed to go to work, on my mother.

I’ve learned, over the years, that one disregards mental limitations at one’s own peril, and there are debts other than money that can sometimes be worse.

 

[somecanadian]

I married a non-virgin with debt. Apparently women don’t require perfection but men do.
LOL

That said, in my experience men dislike virgins, a lot. So I think the article doesn’t stand up to the test of personal experience.

 

[Anicette]

I think it is preferable to avoid all debt when it is possible!

Debt can be evil. And a real sword of damocles that impact our life-choice and a way to over-debt situation. And over-debt is to have our life under-control, and can even finish with suicide.

For eg in link of this article, if a woman contracted expensive debt to complete a college’s degree, in hope to work a few years, then married and stay at home… It will not be possible. So, she will postpone marriage, or have to start a family but will need to work against her wishes.

We should be carefull to not emprisoned ourselves with debt.

Our family is debt-free, because we fear debt and bank, but also because we cannot afford debt. The bank will not loan us money because our earnings are too low. Until now, we can have done otherwise, thanks to carefull choice, frugality, money savings and family support.

But when we will need a new car- and it will be very very complicated to live without a car, as we are in periurban/rural area with no public transportation- It will be a big problem, as we not have enough money in bank for that! So, not been able to afford a loan, can lead to more difficult situation such as revolving credit, and finally the poorest people alwayws have to pay more in order to solve debt than the richer one!

Not have a driving licence and no car, is feasible, if public transportion is really possible if we live in a urban area. It also wise, because it permits to save a LOT OF money in car and a lot of in environemental concern. But the problem is more difficult when we search for a job. It leads me to years of unployment.
I paid my driving lessons when I have enough cash.

 

[alphawoman]

Dave Ramsey’s ideas irk me, because they over simplify the time value of money. However, as a caveat, I understand he’s writing for the broad population and is trying to teach folks to live within their means, which isn’t terrible advice.

What matters is interest rate spreads between consumer debt and investment portfolios, as well as debt as a share of disposable income.
Cash flow matters. If I can sink $20k into a new car at 5% interest, and I earn a six-figure income with benefits, I can redirect the excess cash flow to an investment portfolio earning 10% real annual interest and be better off than under the scenario of paying in cash. Because that annual serviceable debt repayment would be a small share of my disposable income, it wouldn’t impinge other spending.

But if you want my really honest answer, I think people should minimize all spending in depreciating assets like cars, period,

 

[pensmama87]

One thing I do like about him is that he gets how “spenders” think. We did not do our “debt snowball” according to his plan, but paid it off so we would pay lower interest overall. But he’s pretty upfront that the reason he suggests paying them off from smallest to largest (for example) is that it offers a bunch of little victories upfront. It may not work out the best in terms of dollars and cents, but it encourages momentum.

While the math may work out on auto loans (or even credit cards) long term, that’s assuming a very firm level of discipline that many people just don’t have. It invites temptation to live beyond one’s means. I am pretty good about financial discipline, but even so I notice I can fall into spending more than I mean if I’m swiping a card, especially one that earns rewards, than if I pay cold hard cash. It’s possible to make the numbers work for you - I used to do that a lot when I was really into couponing - but the rules are designed to make the companies money, not necessarily the consumer. If I just eliminate the temptation altogether, it’s easier to stay on the straight and narrow.

 

[Xantippe]

But he’s pretty upfront that the reason he suggests paying them off from smallest to largest (for example) is that it offers a bunch of little victories upfront. It may not work out the best in terms of dollars and cents, but it encourages momentum.

Right. And paying off small debts and closing those accounts also makes life less confusing.

We still have credit cards (one for home, one for reimbursable work expenses) that are now paid off every month, but one of the things we did while doing our take on Dave Ramsey was to destroy ever other card. (You know how they’re always offering you 15% off of purchases to get a store card? I had a bunch of those.) Financially speaking, it wasn’t a big deal, but it made life much more complicated and stressful to have so many small balances that we couldn’t really remember what was going on.

Just making things cleaner and simpler makes it easier to be in control (all things being equal) and reduces stress. And that would be a reason not to do the financed car deal that Alphawoman was sketching out–it may work out financially (although I have my doubts that you’re consistently getting 10% yield), but it’s one more thing to think about.

Also, there’s a reason that the car finance places want to use their money lending to you rather than “investing” it–these days a 5% virtually sure deal is nothing to sneeze at.

I personally would suggest getting a moderate loan if there’s no other way to get safe, reliable transportation, paying it off quickly, and then doing everything in your power to be able to pay cash for cars going forward.

By the way, I think it’s funny that we’re having this discussion in the tattoo-free, debt-free virgin thread. You can see just from this discussion that there are a lot of different intelligent and reasonable opinions on either side of the question of how to deal with debt.

I also would like to put this question out there for the guys: Would you prefer to date and marry a woman with no debt who needed you (and her family and friend circle) to drive her everywhere and/or was taking Uber literally everywhere, or a woman with a $5k car loan and a car? I think in practice that the woman with the $5k car loan and the car would be easier to deal with. (I’m assuming an area where public transportation wouldn’t be a practical choice.)

 

[Xantippe]

Whether or not men prefer debt-free women is highly debatable.

All things being equal, of course, but throw in a few variables, and it’s less clear. Here are some possible scenarios:

–high school diploma and debt-free
–BA with $20k student loans
–physician’s assistant with $100k in student loans
–MD with $200k in student loans
–homeowner with mortgage (but substantial equity)

In practice, I suspect that the woman with a BA and $20k is (financially!) more attractive than the debt-free high school graduate–which is reflected in US marriage stats.

 

[heidi_storage]

BA in what?

When are they going to have kids, and what’s the plan for taking care of them? A BA in Communications with 20k debt working a secretarial job doesn’t sound like a better prospect than a highschool graduate with no debt.

 

[Xantippe]

And yet, objectively speaking, the BA in communications working a secretarial job with $20k in debt has a better shot at marriage than a high school graduate with no debt. That’s the cold hard truth–it’s very hard in the modern US for non-college women to get and stay married and raise children in wedlock. A woman being a high school graduate is highly correlated with all sorts of bad things: lower income, more out-of-wedlock childbearing, less marriage, more divorce.

It’s also true that the BA in communications is probably going to be academically better equipped to homeschool than the debt-free high school graduate, not to mention navigating middle class parenthood (which often feels like a secretarial job, especially when you have bigger kids).

That said, I agree that different majors are different.

Edited to add: Also, the hypothetical BA in communications is more likely to have good insurance through her job.

 

[Xantippe]

I think people tend to forget that male and female career paths are not quite the same.

For example, when people say, “There are lots of good jobs that don’t require college!” they are almost always thinking of traditionally male jobs–for example the military or the trades.

There are way fewer good jobs that are practical for women that don’t require at least community college. A woman without a college education is far more handicapped in life than a man without a college education.

Again, Lori Alexander is a doctor’s daughter (so he went to college), she went to college and got her teaching certification, her husband went to college, and 3 out of 4 of her kids went to college (one of the daughters went into professional dance instead). When she tells young women not to go to college, she’s not preaching something that her family has practiced–her family has prospered by doing college, and lots of it.

 

[somecanadian]

Sometimes the attitude towards women in this forum is greatly distressing.

Its like we are literally expected to do nothing other than have babies. Our entire worth and purpose is apparently only that and if we should desire or seek anything else we’re seen as bad Catholics (somehow).

I gotta say… it’s very off putting.

I was 35 before I found a man that was suitable to marry (had plenty of suitors but they weren’t right). If I hadn’t pursued a career I would have been destitute. Instead of waiting around for a man to take care of me, I worked my rear off. Bought my own house, built up my own reputation, built a solid career.

I’m now at the point where we are expecting a child and I am GLAD for all the experiences I’ve had leading up to this moment because I know it will make me a better mother. I don’t for one minute regret working. And, in fact, have built myself the sort of job where after the children are past the “Going to keep you up every minute of every day” stage, I will be free to work from home and continue to bring money into our household.

Mind you, I did not invest in an education but I often wish I had. I feel like my path would have been much easier had I pursued some kind of education.

This attitude that women are wasting their time with education because in the end they’re just expected to be mothers is just so… damaging.

What about women who end up sterile?

What about women who only end up with one child?

Are they expected to just do nothing for the rest of their lives?

What if the husband dies? How can a woman be expected to care for her family in that situation if she has no education and no prior experience?

It just seems especially cruel to give women absolutely NO tools to care for themselves.

 

[DarkLight]

Dave Ramsey’s ideas irk me, because they over simplify the time value of money. However, as a caveat, I understand he’s writing for the broad population and is trying to teach folks to live within their means, which isn’t terrible advice.

One thing I do like about him is that he gets how “spenders” think. We did not do our “debt snowball” according to his plan, but paid it off so we would pay lower interest overall. But he’s pretty upfront that the reason he suggests paying them off from smallest to largest (for example) is that it offers a bunch of little victories upfront. It may not work out the best in terms of dollars and cents, but it encourages momentum

I think he’s largely writing for a certain audience - middle class folk, generally middle aged married folk, who have the money to meet all their basic needs, but have trouble with keeping their spending in bounds of what they make. He does acknowledge the principle of the four walls, but he doesn’t have a lot past that for those who aren’t in that demographic.

He really doesn’t have anything, for example, for when you’re at the place where paying the four walls is beyond your maximum earning capacities. Or really for when paying for the four walls takes pretty much all the paycheck. I know I’ve complained that in some markets, the safe percentage of your income for housing will get you a cardboard box in the parking lot. Or more realistically - I’m a single lady with an evening job, I’ll pay a bit more to not feel like I need a can of mace out to walk to my apartment. And I have thoroughly crashed myself into the ground trying to do too much at once before; not everyone can actually handle the 60 or 80 hour week successfully.

When you’re in a position to cut out extras and save up, it’s almost always the better idea. But if you don’t have the excess to save up, some debt can be a better option than eking it out paycheck to paycheck, and not improving much because you’re always chasing making enough to make rent and afford gas.

 

[Xantippe]

I think he’s largely writing for a certain audience - middle class folk, generally middle aged married folk, who have the money to meet all their basic needs, but have trouble with keeping their spending in bounds of what they make.

…or, say, new graduates who are suddenly making a good salary but have substantial student loans.

 

[DarkLight]

…or, say, new graduates who are suddenly making a good salary but have substantial student loans.

Fair enough!

Still, my point is he’s generally writing for people who have the money to pay the bills and have some left over, or at least can get and maintain a job that does that. I’ve noticed when he’s addressing issues of college and getting started in life, it’s pretty much all aimed at those where staying with family and receiving help while the 18+ young adult gets launched is practical.

 

[Xantippe]

Fair enough!

Still, my point is he’s generally writing for people who have the money to pay the bills and have some left over, or at least can get and maintain a job that does that. I’ve noticed when he’s addressing issues of college and getting started in life, it’s pretty much all aimed at those where staying with family and receiving help while the 18+ young adult gets launched is practical.

Even just being able to live with family is a huge help.

I’d say that being a middle-aged person often makes it more difficult, because while income is probably at its peak, expenses are also at their peak–these days parents are often subsidizing young adults well into their 20s. Plus, they may have been helping with college in financially damaging ways. The facilitator for my Financial Peace University class was a 50-something pastor who had put his kids’ college on the credit card before discovering Dave Ramsey.

OUCH!

Some of our relatives were subsidizing one of their kids to the tune of $1500 a month for years, and another set of relatives had their adult married son on the family dole for a couple of years after he graduated into the 2008 recession with a degree (structural engineering) that was especially hard hit. (I know there’s a lot of love for STEM majors these days, but when STEM industries get hit, they get hit HARD.)

Basically, now is always the best time to figure stuff out, even if you can’t fully implement the plan immediately. Stupid just has a way of compounding…