Men should first discern religious life

[dadude]

Hello,

I am writing here asking for a reference. At one time I remember reading that man should first dicedn a vocation to the religious life before discerning a vocation to marriage. I was wondering are there any church documents or writings of the saints in which this is stated? I serchred th c.c.c. Without any luck.

Thanks

 

[Tim_Kirchoff]

I couldn’t give you a direct quote of any sort, but if I recall correctly, St. Thomas More (patron of lawyers and politicians) spent several years in a monastary, trying to discern his vocation. He ultimately decided that he was called to the married life.

Hope that helps

 

[Cloisters]

There’s no novitiate for marriage.

Blessings,
Cloisters

 

[JReducation]

I couldn’t give you a direct quote of any sort, but if I recall correctly, St. Thomas More (patron of lawyers and politicians) spent several years in a monastary, trying to discern his vocation. He ultimately decided that he was called to the married life.

Hope that helps

St. Thomas More was also a Franciscan. He became a Franciscan before he was married and died within the Franciscan Order. He was burried as a Franciscan and his feast day is part of the Franciscan liturgical calendar.

What many people do not know is that St. Francis founded three religious orders. Yes, I did say religious. They are canonically erected religious orders with vows, a rule, constitutions, their own government, and autonomous from the bishops. They are subject only to the Pope.

These are

1. The Friars Minor: of which there are three communities (Observant Franciscans, Capuchin Franciscans and Conventual Franciscans) The difference between the three has to do with the ownership of property. The Capuchin Franciscan Friars Minor do not own property as individuals or corporate property.
2. The Poor Ladies of Assisi: often known as the Poor Clares. They are a cloistered group of women religious. They have a different rule from the friars. The first rule was written by Francis. Their second rule was written by Pope Gregory IV and their final rule was written by St. Clare of Assisi. Each Poor Clare abbey is autonomous. The local superior and the local bishop are the highest authorities in the monastery.
3. The Brothers and Sisters of Penance: often called Third Order Franciscans or Secular Fanciscans. The Brothers and Sisters of Penance have their own rule, their own government, mission and have a generate in Rome. Only the Pope can change their rule.

They are divided into regional communities and local communities to make it easier to govern. There are about one million of them. Some are deacons, priests, bishops and popes, others are single men and women who live in community and make vows of celibacy (Franciscan Sisters, Third Order Regular Franciscans or TOR, Franciscan Brothers such as the Eternal Word Friars or Fr. Benedict’s Franciscans of the Renewal, others are married men and women who make permanent vows to live according to the Rule of St. Francis by bringing the Gospel life to the secular world.

To bring the Gospel life to the secular world without preching and without involving themselves in the conflicts of the world or the Church. The Rule actually forbids that they do so. St. Thomas More was a Franciscan Brother of Penance. Therefore, not only did his safety inspire him to keep silence in the face of Henry’s betrayal of the Catholic Church, but so did the Rule. The Rule of St. Francis for the Brothers and Sisters of Penance prohibits taking oaths to protect any secular government or any Church group. The only oath permitted is to obey the Church and St. Francis.

Many Secular Franciscans have been martyred because of this single article in the rule. It also says that in the face of conflict, such as error, the Brothers and Sisters of Penance must take the issue before the hierarchy of the Order or of the Church, but not attempt to correct it themselves. They are to remember that they are the lowliest of God’s creatures and the most sinful, therefore not in a place to call another brother or sister a sinner. If they see a brother or sister a sin, they must offer fraternal correction, but never condemnation. That is up to the Minister of the Order or the hierarchy of the Church to do. The Rule does not recognize the power of the State to punish sin.

That’s why at the end of his trial Thomas More says, “I die a faithful subject of the King and a son the Church.” He was following Francis. Render unto Caesar what is Caesar’s.

As to whether one should consider the religious life before considering marriage, I’ve never heard it said. However, it makes sense. If your call is to live a life of celibacy, it becomes a mute question if you’re married. It would make sense to rule that out before you get married.

However, if your call is to enter a secular religious order, such as the Secular Franciscans, then it’s not a mute question. However, the Franciscans do require that the spouse consent before you enter the Order. I do not know if this is the same for other secular orders. The Secular Franciscan Order still maintains many of the monastic rules in its constitutions. This may not be the case in other secular religious communities.

Fraternally,

JR

 

[Adoro_Te_Devote]

That’s an interesting question, but unfortunately I don’t have an answer for you.

My Confirmation Sponsor (please pray for her) once said to me, “Every good Catholic woman should seriously consider Religious Life.”

Her words have never left me. I don’t know where her quote came from, but I do think it applies to men as well, for all Vows are eternal. And the consideration should be much deeper than “Let me think about it…NO.”

I hope, if there is a direct quote, that you find it. I’d be very interested in it.

God bless.

 

[JReducation]

That’s an interesting question, but unfortunately I don’t have an answer for you.

My Confirmation Sponsor (please pray for her) once said to me, “Every good Catholic woman should seriously consider Religious Life.”

Her words have never left me. I don’t know where her quote came from, but I do think it applies to men as well, for all Vows are eternal. And the consideration should be much deeper than “Let me think about it…NO.”

I hope, if there is a direct quote, that you find it. I’d be very interested in it.

God bless.

I agree with your sponsor. I believe the question is valid for men and women. There are two points that must enter the picture.

1. The question of religious vocation must come before the question of marriage, because once you’re married, the other is a mute issue.
2. Religious life is not just priesthood and sisterhood. There are many forms of religious life and Catholics should try to explore them and become aware of them.

There are religoius orders, religious congregations, secular institutes, secular religioius orders and societies.

Then there are different kinds of religious: nuns, sisters, brothers, friars, monks, hermits, mendicants and canons.

Finally, deacons and priests are not religious, unless they are members of a religious order or a religioius congregation. The diaconate and the priesthood can be considered separately from the religious life. Most deacons and priests ARE NOT religious, they are secular men, very few are religious. But it’s a vocational option.

There is such a wealth of callings in the the Church that it’s a shame to believe that everyone has to choose between being married or a priest or sister.

Fraternally,

JR

 

[Adoro_Te_Devote]

I agree with your sponsor. I believe the question is valid for men and women. There are two points that must enter the picture.

1. The question of religious vocation must come before the question of marriage, because once you’re married, the other is a mute issue.
2. Religious life is not just priesthood and sisterhood. There are many forms of religious life and Catholics should try to explore them and become aware of them.

There are religoius orders, religious congregations, secular institutes, secular religioius orders and societies.

Then there are different kinds of religious: nuns, sisters, brothers, friars, monks, hermits, mendicants and canons.

Finally, deacons and priests are not religious, unless they are members of a religious order or a religioius congregation. The diaconate and the priesthood can be considered separately from the religious life. Most deacons and priests ARE NOT religious, they are secular men, very few are religious. But it’s a vocational option.

There is such a wealth of callings in the the Church that it’s a shame to believe that everyone has to choose between being married or a priest or sister.

Fraternally,

JR

Good info, Jr, thanks. I actually left the priesthood and deaconate out of my comment as I am a woman and those they would not apply. Clearly, though, for a man, they would.

However, I have to take issue with one thing; it is important for someone to consider the foundational Vocations of Priesthood, Relgious Life, or Marriage, for, as you and we all agree, Vows are permanent.

The other vocations you bring in can be done in conjunction with one or another Vocation. The Deaconate is open to married men. Secular Institutes are open to married men and women, Single men and women, and the Diocesan Priesthood.

I know Diocesan Priests who have become Secular Carmelites. I myself am a single woman discerning Religious Life, and am working to establish a chapter of Third Order (Lay) Dominicans. If I do make promises to a secular Order, I am still able to get married. I am also able to enter a religious community that is not Dominican.

Yet that openness does not mean that the secular communites are not vocations; they are. It involves a Call from God to a specific spirituality and way of life, but one that for some, helps them to enter into something more permanent. And for all…it is a gateway to the road to Heaven.

JR., I’m not saying this in any way to seem to disagree with you; I think we agree, and I just wanted to throw more info out there.

I hope this wasn’t too OT.

 

[JReducation]

Good info, Jr, thanks. I actually left the priesthood and deaconate out of my comment as I am a woman and those they would not apply. Clearly, though, for a man, they would.

However, I have to take issue with one thing; it is important for someone to consider the foundational Vocations of Priesthood, Relgious Life, or Marriage, for, as you and we all agree, Vows are permanent.

The other vocations you bring in can be done in conjunction with one or another Vocation. The Deaconate is open to married men. Secular Institutes are open to married men and women, Single men and women, and the Diocesan Priesthood.

I know Diocesan Priests who have become Secular Carmelites. I myself am a single woman discerning Religious Life, and am working to establish a chapter of Third Order (Lay) Dominicans. If I do make promises to a secular Order, I am still able to get married. I am also able to enter a religious community that is not Dominican.

Yet that openness does not mean that the secular communites are not vocations; they are. It involves a Call from God to a specific spirituality and way of life, but one that for some, helps them to enter into something more permanent. And for all…it is a gateway to the road to Heaven.

JR., I’m not saying this in any way to seem to disagree with you; I think we agree, and I just wanted to throw more info out there.

I hope this wasn’t too OT.

Just for Clarification, Secular Carmelites, Secular Franciscans, Secular Domnicans and Oblates of St. Benedict are not Secular Institutes.

They are Secular Religious Orders. They do make perpetual commitments. Canon law does not allow one to belong to more than one at a time. One may be either celibate or married in a Secular Religious Order. The Lay Dominicans are not a Secular Religious Order, they are an Association of the faithful. That’s why they have a slightly different law regarding membership. Secular Franciscans and Secular Carmelites are orders. They are governed by the same canons as the friars. The lifestyle of most Secular Orders is similar, even though the spiritual emphasis is different.

Secular Institutes make perpetual vows of chastity, poverty and obedience, and they are celibate. They own property as individuals and as a corporate body, they are subject to the authority of the local bishop. The latter is the the difference between them and religious congregations. Religioius congregations are not bound to the authority of the local bishop in matters regarding their life.

There are Secular Institutes that are exempt from the local bishops through a papal indult. For example, the Vincentians are a Secular Institute, the Daughters of Charity, St. Elizabeth Ann Seton’s Sisters of Charity, the Institute of Christ the King, The Sons of the Most Holy Redeemer (Transalpine Redemptorists) Maryknoll and Opus Dei. These communities answer to the Sacred Congregation for Religious and Secular Institutes. Do not confuse secular orders with secular institutes. Not the same . . .

The vows in each of these communities are going to be different. For example, most people do not know that Benedictine Monks do not make the three vows. They make only two vows: Obedience and Stability. Other people do not know that the Jesuits are a society, not a religious order, however, they make the same vows as the Franciscans do, Solemn vows of poverty, obedience and chastity. Most religious do not make solemn vows, only monks and mendicants.

It is also important to know that when you make a solemn vow any attempt to make marriage vows is null and void. But when you make simple vows, the marriage vows are valid. Religous in congregations who ilicitly attempt marriage are validly married. Religious who are monks, mendicants or Jesuits, are not validly married.

This is another good reason to discern well before deciding. Discernment should be accompanied by education.

I just wanted to add to what you wrote, as this is such an interesting and complex area in the Church.

On another note, you said that you’re attempting to begin a chapter of the Dominicans in your parish. Here is another difference between an Association of the Faithful and a Secular Religious Order. Secular Religious Orders cannot be established in any parish without two permissions: the Superior General of the Secular Order and the consent of the local bishop. For example, one cannot establish a Secular Franciscan fraternity in a parish without permission from the Minister General of the Secular Franciscan Order. One must take that permission to the local bishop. The Secular Orders do not depend on the friars. They are autonomous in government, in their rule, and in their mission.

Interesting, isn’t it?

JR

 

[Adoro_Te_Devote]

Just for Clarification, Secular Carmelites, Secular Franciscans, Secular Domnicans and Oblates of St. Benedict are not Secular Institutes.

They are Secular Religious Orders. They do make perpetual commitments. Canon law does not allow one to belong to more than one at a time. One may be either celibate or married in a Secular Religious Order. The Lay Dominicans are not a Secular Religious Order, they are an Association of the faithful. That’s why they have a slightly different law regarding membership. Secular Franciscans and Secular Carmelites are orders. They are governed by the same canons as the friars. The lifestyle of most Secular Orders is similar, even though the spiritual emphasis is different.

Secular Institutes make perpetual vows of chastity, poverty and obedience, and they are celibate. They own property as individuals and as a corporate body, they are subject to the authority of the local bishop. The latter is the the difference between them and religious congregations. Religioius congregations are not bound to the authority of the local bishop in matters regarding their life.

There are Secular Institutes that are exempt from the local bishops through a papal indult. For example, the Vincentians are a Secular Institute, the Daughters of Charity, St. Elizabeth Ann Seton’s Sisters of Charity, the Institute of Christ the King, The Sons of the Most Holy Redeemer (Transalpine Redemptorists) Maryknoll and Opus Dei. These communities answer to the Sacred Congregation for Religious and Secular Institutes. Do not confuse secular orders with secular institutes. Not the same . . .

The vows in each of these communities are going to be different. For example, most people do not know that Benedictine Monks do not make the three vows. They make only two vows: Obedience and Stability. Other people do not know that the Jesuits are a society, not a religious order, however, they make the same vows as the Franciscans do, Solemn vows of poverty, obedience and chastity. Most religious do not make solemn vows, only monks and mendicants.

It is also important to know that when you make a solemn vow any attempt to make marriage vows is null and void. But when you make simple vows, the marriage vows are valid. Religous in congregations who ilicitly attempt marriage are validly married. Religious who are monks, mendicants or Jesuits, are not validly married.

This is another good reason to discern well before deciding. Discernment should be accompanied by education.

I just wanted to add to what you wrote, as this is such an interesting and complex area in the Church.

On another note, you said that you’re attempting to begin a chapter of the Dominicans in your parish. Here is another difference between an Association of the Faithful and a Secular Religious Order. Secular Religious Orders cannot be established in any parish without two permissions: the Superior General of the Secular Order and the consent of the local bishop. For example, one cannot establish a Secular Franciscan fraternity in a parish without permission from the Minister General of the Secular Franciscan Order. One must take that permission to the local bishop. The Secular Orders do not depend on the friars. They are autonomous in government, in their rule, and in their mission.

Interesting, isn’t it?

JR

It IS interesting, and I fear that my insinuation has completely lead this thread off the rails. My apologies to the OP. Please forgive me.

I’m thinking the “Third Order” stuff belongs on an entirely different thread. And as it’s something alive and well in the Church…maybe we should start one…

 

[JReducation]

It IS interesting, and I fear that my insinuation has completely lead this thread off the rails. My apologies to the OP. Please forgive me.

I’m thinking the “Third Order” stuff belongs on an entirely different thread. And as it’s something alive and well in the Church…maybe we should start one…

We do have one on Franciscan Spirituality and Mysticism and I think I saw one on Carmelites.

I have not seen one a Secular and Third Orders. That may be an interesting topic, especially because they are not the same thing and many people do not know this.

Nor have I seen a Dominican thread or one on Secular Institutes either.

Coin toss, which do we start?

1. Secular Institutes
2. Secular Orders and Third Orders
3. Dominican spirit and life
4. Secular and Religious Orders
5. Religious Orders and Religious Congregations
6. Secular Institutes and Religious Congregations

Who wants to cast a vote so we can leave this poor thread on track?

JR

 

[Adoro_Te_Devote]

Why don’t we just start a general thread, and let other more specific posts spring from that?

 

[DL82]

There’s no novitiate for marriage.

Blessings,
Cloisters

Yes there is, it’s called being engaged

Seriously though, I have been wavering on the whole issue of Religious Life for a number of years. I went through periods of thinking about becoming a monk when I was 19 and 23, and am in a more serious discernment now.

All the same, I think there’s something about the feeling of grace one gets from God when discerning Religious life, the feeling that God is all we really need to be whole in life, that makes a man more masculine, and more suited to being a good husband.

If you are looking for a woman to ‘complete’ you, or looking for a woman because you don’t know how you could ever live without one, you’ll come across as needy and desperate. If, on the other hand, you are willing to accept whatever God asks of you in life, relying solely on His grace to see you through, you can be the kind of rock a woman wants.

There may be other ways, but I can’t think of any better way to achieve that sense of genuine acceptance of the will of God than by being willing to explore the possibility of a call to Religious life.

I don’t know how my particular discernment process will turn out, but I feel confident that my life will be lived in a better way because God has given me the grace to be willing to explore my vocation.

 

[Genesis315]

Everyone has a natural vocation to marriage–we are all built for it. However, some have a supernatural vocation to celibate religious life in which their natural vocation is offered as a sacrifice for love of God and the good of the Church and world.

When people say they are drawn to both married and religious life, that is perfectly natural and good–that’s why it is a sacrifice to give up marriage for the religious life.

Now, the following is only my opinion: if you “discern” the married life first (which really means discerning who to potentially marry), most likely one will feel themselves called to it since it is the natural vocation of all. If you get too attached to a potential spouse, there may not be an opportunity to even seriously discern the religious life. However, if you discern the religious life first and find it to be your calling, you are called to sacrifice that natural call to marry anyway, so there is no need to discern potential spouses.

 

[lpioch]

There are Secular Institutes that are exempt from the local bishops through a papal indult. For example, the Vincentians are a Secular Institute, the Daughters of Charity, St. Elizabeth Ann Seton’s Sisters of Charity, the Institute of Christ the King, The Sons of the Most Holy Redeemer (Transalpine Redemptorists) Maryknoll and Opus Dei. These communities answer to the Sacred Congregation for Religious and Secular Institutes. Do not confuse secular orders with secular institutes. Not the same . . .

Just to be really really technically correct, Opus Dei is not a Secular Institute. It used to be until its “perfect fit” into the structure of the Church was available. It is now (as of the early 1980s) a Personal Prelature. It falls under the Congregation of Bishops…not under the Congregation for Religious.

 

[ack]

Maybe someone should start another thread about this so we can avoid littering so many of these threads with our discussion…

They are Secular Religious Orders. They do make perpetual commitments. Canon law does not allow one to belong to more than one at a time.

I believe that this was eliminated in the 1983 code.

On another note, you said that you’re attempting to begin a chapter of the Dominicans in your parish. Here is another difference between an Association of the Faithful and a Secular Religious Order.

Under the 1983 code, autonomous Secular Religious Orders are also Associations of the Faithful. Even the constitution of the Secular Franciscan Order alludes to this (see article 1, #5, although there is a possible special case here which we have discussed on another thread).

Secular Religious Orders cannot be established in any parish without two permissions: the Superior General of the Secular Order and the consent of the local bishop. For example, one cannot establish a Secular Franciscan fraternity in a parish without permission from the Minister General of the Secular Franciscan Order. One must take that permission to the local bishop. The Secular Orders do not depend on the friars. They are autonomous in government, in their rule, and in their mission.

This is true for most Secular Orders, but is not true for Third Orders that are governed by Provincial of the Religious Institute to which they are attached. These Third Orders are non-canonical and lack juridic personality (see "An Introduction to Canon Law by James Coriden, page 69), operating under the permission and authority of the province of the associated “first order”.

Interesting, isn’t it?

Very interesting – I am still learning so everybody should please correct any incorrect statements that I have made, but cite corrections from a current document (post Vatican II/1983).