Men0wjv : Jizya

[inJESUS]

Peace be with all.

Men0wjv, you raised the jizya issue in another thread and i would like you to explain some points here in order to avoid derailing your thread. This thread is not about the jizya being a tax system or the percentage this or that must pay but actually about jizya and humiliation. So the major point is discussing the jizya and its implications of humiliation.

**Others **can surely contribute!

 

[inJESUS]

Bump.

 

[algebra]

In the Name of Allah, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful.
This is a guarantee of protection from Muhammad to Yahna bin Rawbah and the people of Allah; their ships, their caravans on the land and sea shall have custody of Muhammad , he and whosoever are with him of Ash-Sham people and those of the sea. Whosoever contravenes this treaty, his wealth shall not save him; it shall be the fair prize of him that takes it. Now it should not be lawful to hinder the men from any springs which they have been in the habit of frequenting, nor from any journeys they desire to make, whether by sea or by land.

and again

Narrated 'Amr bin 'Auf Al-Ansari: (who was an ally of Bam 'Amr bin Lu’ai and one of those who had taken part in (the Ghazwa of) Badr): Allah’s Apostle sent Abu 'Ubaida bin Al-Jarreh to Bahrain to collect the Jizya. Allah’s Apostle had established peace with the people of Bahrain and appointed Al-‘Ala’ bin Al-Hadrami as their governor. When Abu 'Ubaida came from Bahrain with the money, the Ansar heard of Abu ‘Ubaida’s arrival which coincided with the time of the morning prayer with the Prophet. When Allah’s Apostle led them in the morning prayer and finished, the Ansar approached him, and he looked at them and smiled on seeing them and said, “I feel that you have heard that Abu. 'Ubaida has brought something?” They said, "Yes, O Allah’s Apostle’ He said, “Rejoice and hope for what will please you! By Allah, I am not afraid of your poverty but I am afraid that you will lead a life of luxury as past nations did, whereupon you will compete with each other for it, as they competed for it, and it will destroy you as it destroyed them.”

This is a treaty between Mohammed and some northern arabian tribes, after they paid jizyah - it is clearly “protection” money.

 

[algebra]

It has been reported from Sulaiman b. Buraid through his father that when the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) appointed anyone as leader of an army or detachment he would especially exhort him to fear Allah and to be good to the Muslims who were with him. He would say: Fight in the name of Allah and in the way of Allah. Fight against those who disbelieve in Allah. Make a holy war, do not embezzle the spoils; do not break your pledge; and do not mutilate (the dead) bodies; do not kill the children. When you meet your enemies who are polytheists, invite them to three courses of action. If they respond to any one of these, you also accept it and withold yourself from doing them any harm. Invite them to (accept) Islam; if they respond to you, accept it from them and desist from fighting against them. Then invite them to migrate from their lands to the land of Muhairs and inform them that, if they do so, they shall have all the privileges and obligations of the Muhajirs. If they refuse to migrate, tell them that they will have the status of Bedouin Muilims and will be subjected to the Commands of Allah like other Muslims, but they will not get any share from the spoils of war or Fai’ except when they actually fight with the Muslims (against the disbelievers). If they refuse to accept Islam, demand from them the Jizya. If they agree to pay, accept it from them and hold off your hands. If they refuse to pay the tax, seek Allah’s help and fight them. When you lay siege to a fort and the besieged appeal to you for protection in the name of Allah and His Prophet, do not accord to them the guarantee of Allah and His Prophet, but accord to them your own guarantee and the guarantee of your companions for it is a lesser sin that the security given by you or your companions be disregarded than that the security granted in the name of Allah and His Prophet be violated When you besiege a fort and the besieged want you to let them out in accordance with Allah’s Command, do not let them come out in accordance with His Command, but do so at your (own) command, for you do not know whether or not you will be able to carry out Allah’s behest with regard to them.

 

[inJESUS]

Peace Algebra, are you saying the Jizya has nothing to do with humiliation?

 

[algebra]

Jizya has alot to do with humiliation

 

[inJESUS]

Jizya has alot to do with humiliation

this is actually the topic of this thread.

 

[inJESUS]

Again, refresh

 

[inJESUS]

No Muslim has enough info of this subject? different info? new info? anything?

 

[dolphinlove]

bump again

 

[wina]

 

[ralphinal]

THey may not want to talk about it because "it is impossible for any existing country to charge it.’

Or because “we have discussed it before”

or Because “There are ten thousand saints”

or because “You have exposed a cesspool in our teaching that we want to cover again”

 

[Sababah]

Peace be with all.

Men0wjv, you raised the jizya issue in another thread and i would like you to explain some points here in order to avoid derailing your thread. This thread is not about the jizya being a tax system or the percentage this or that must pay but actually about jizya and humiliation. So the major point is discussing the jizya and its implications of humiliation.

**Others **can surely contribute!

Jizya is the tax paid by non-muslims living under an Islamic state.

The humiliation is because of your falsehood in worshipping Jesus as a god.

However… if you want to link Jizya to humiliation… then O.K. Here is confirmation of the humiliation you are seeking…

ROMANS 13:

Let every soul be subject to higher powers: for there is no power but from God: and those that are, are ordained of God. 2 Therefore he that resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God. And they that resist, purchase to themselves damnation. 3 For princes are not a terror to the good work, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? Do that which is good: and thou shalt have praise from the same. 4 For he is God’s minister to thee, for good. But if thou do that which is evil, fear: for he beareth not the sword in vain. For he is God’s minister: an avenger to execute wrath upon him that doth evil. 5 Wherefore be subject of necessity, not only for wrath, but also for conscience’ sake. 6 For therefore also you pay JIZYA. For they are the ministers of God, serving unto this purpose. 7 Render therefore to all men their dues. JIZYA, to whom JIZYA is due: custom, to whom custom: fear, to whom fear: honour, to whom honour.

 

[cathopologist]

Jizya is the tax paid by non-muslims living under an Islamic state.

The humiliation is because of your falsehood in worshipping Jesus as a god.

However… if you want to link Jizya to humiliation… then O.K. Here is confirmation of the humiliation you are seeking…

ROMANS 13:

Let every soul be subject to higher powers: for there is no power but from God: and those that are, are ordained of God. 2 Therefore he that resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God. And they that resist, purchase to themselves damnation. 3 For princes are not a terror to the good work, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? Do that which is good: and thou shalt have praise from the same. 4 For he is God’s minister to thee, for good. But if thou do that which is evil, fear: for he beareth not the sword in vain. For he is God’s minister: an avenger to execute wrath upon him that doth evil. 5 Wherefore be subject of necessity, not only for wrath, but also for conscience’ sake. 6 For therefore also you pay JIZYA. For they are the ministers of God, serving unto this purpose. 7 Render therefore to all men their dues. JIZYA, to whom JIZYA is due: custom, to whom custom: fear, to whom fear: honour, to whom honour.

Jesus is God.

The verse you posted is so taken out of context that it proves how Muslims desperately want to justify evil acts. First of all, the Caliphs never proclaimed themselves as ‘God’s ministers’. If you read from Romans 13:8 onwards, you will see that the Bible clearly instructs us not to commit adultery, not to murder, not to steal, not to covet and to love your neighbour as you would love yourself. Clearly these were not the practices of the Muslim invaders and contrary to what Romans 13:8-14 teaches.

 

[Reuben_J]

Jesus is God.

The verse you posted is so taken out of context that it proves how Muslims desperately want to justify evil acts. First of all, the Caliphs never proclaimed themselves as ‘God’s ministers’. If you read from Romans 13:8 onwards, you will see that the Bible clearly instructs us not to commit adultery, not to murder, not to steal, not to covet and to love your neighbour as you would love yourself. Clearly these were not the practices of the Muslim invaders and contrary to what Romans 13:8-14 teaches.

Forget it, Cath. The person is baiting and is not interested in answering the OP. You notice how this thread has been inactive without any Muslim takers?

I tend to agree with Ralph.

There are simply certain topics in Islam that cannot be questioned or there is no answer. Expect to hear response like, Allah knows best.

Sorry to say all that but as we can see even before inJesus begins to continue seriously the tone of the response is already very belligerent. I think for them the quicker this thread disappears the better, no troublesome questions to answer.

 

[Sababah]

Jesus is God.

The verse you posted is so taken out of context that it proves how Muslims desperately want to justify evil acts. First of all, the Caliphs never proclaimed themselves as ‘God’s ministers’. If you read from Romans 13:8 onwards, you will see that the Bible clearly instructs us not to commit adultery, not to murder, not to steal, not to covet and to love your neighbour as you would love yourself. Clearly these were not the practices of the Muslim invaders and contrary to what Romans 13:8-14 teaches.

I think it is you who is taking your book out of context.

‘Paul the Liar’ is ordering you to live in humilation under the ROMAN and GREEK GODS.

The rulers of the cities & towns he is refering to are Greeks & Roman pagans. The Laws & Customs are pagan. Correct?

The question for this thread is …‘is Jizya a form of humiliation?’ Your book clearly orderes you to pay Jiyza to your Roman & Greek overlords. Agreed?

And you are to *“take it on the chin” *(be humiliated) with whatever they dish out. Agreed?

*ROMANS 13:

Let every soul be subject to higher powers: for there is no power but from God: and those that are, are ordained of God. 2 Therefore he that resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God. And they that resist, purchase to themselves damnation. 3 For princes are not a terror to the good work, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? Do that which is good: and thou shalt have praise from the same. 4 For he is God’s minister to thee, for good. But if thou do that which is evil, fear: for he beareth not the sword in vain. For he is God’s minister: an avenger to execute wrath upon him that doth evil. 5 Wherefore be subject of necessity, not only for wrath, but also for conscience’ sake. 6 For therefore also you pay JIZYA.* For they are the ministers of God, serving unto this purpose. 7 Render therefore to all men their dues. JIZYA, to whom JIZYA is due: custom, to whom custom: fear, to whom fear: honour, to whom honour.

 

[swariffin]

I think it is you who is taking your book out of context.

‘Paul the Liar’ is ordering you to live in humilation under the ROMAN and GREEK GODS.

The rulers of the cities & towns he is refering to are Greeks & Roman pagans. The Laws & Customs are pagan. Correct?

The question for this thread is …‘is Jizya a form of humiliation?’ Your book clearly orderes you to pay Jiyza to your Roman & Greek overlords. Agreed?

And you are to *“take it on the chin” *(be humiliated) with whatever they dish out. Agreed?

*ROMANS 13:

Let every soul be subject to higher powers: for there is no power but from God: and those that are, are ordained of God. 2 Therefore he that resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God. And they that resist, purchase to themselves damnation. 3 For princes are not a terror to the good work, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? Do that which is good: and thou shalt have praise from the same. 4 For he is God’s minister to thee, for good. But if thou do that which is evil, fear: for he beareth not the sword in vain. For he is God’s minister: an avenger to execute wrath upon him that doth evil. 5 Wherefore be subject of necessity, not only for wrath, but also for conscience’ sake. 6 For therefore also you pay JIZYA.* For they are the ministers of God, serving unto this purpose. 7 Render therefore to all men their dues. JIZYA, to whom JIZYA is due: custom, to whom custom: fear, to whom fear: honour, to whom honour.

When I pay value added tax then I pay humiliating jizya, when i pay income tax, then I pay humiliating jizya, when I pay withholding tax, then I pay humiliating jizya. Since when Tax = Jizya? It is you who FORCE a meaning of a verse based on your own taste. Maybe there is no tax in your country since yours are oil rich country, with very few people to feed. No wonder you have no idea what taxation is.

 

[Reuben_J]

Exactly.

This is what we are trying to say and he has just confirmed it. Because of our belief we are ‘punished’ for it by paying the Jizya. Today this is against human rights law. No one should be punished, humiliated, singled out, whatever you named it, for his/her religous belief.

 

[cathopologist]

I think it is you who is taking your book out of context.

We abide by the teachings of our Book and who to know better than practicing Christians? Muslims don’t even know the ABC’s of what their book teaches, let alone understand Christianity.

‘Paul the Liar’ is ordering you to live in humilation under the ROMAN and GREEK GODS.

Paul was a Saint. In contrast to no known saints in Islam. Doesn’t that alone makes you wonder why? Paul does not order anyone but instead reiterates what Jesus taught as found in Matthew 22:21. He did not mean any Caliph was rightly guided or anyone should tolerate their bigotry.

The rulers of the cities & towns he is refering to are Greeks & Roman pagans. The Laws & Customs are pagan. Correct?

Jews have long despised Roman rule but history proves Jewish people were better off under Roman rule than Islamic humiliation.

The question for this thread is …‘is Jizya a form of humiliation?’ Your book clearly orderes you to pay Jiyza to your Roman & Greek overlords. Agreed?

No. It actually does prove Jizya is a form of degrading and public humiliation meant for non-Muslims under Islamic rule.

And you are to *“take it on the chin” *(be humiliated) with whatever they dish out. Agreed?

Funny you should say that. Muslims in Palestine, Afghanistan and Iraq should take it on the chin too and not whine about their failure as morally abiding people.

 

[R_not]

I read through these posts - and the part I don’t understand is why do muslims worry about Paul so much?
I figured they would twist jizya into something like a tax system, but it is meant to humiliate non-muslims and to accept subjugation (dhimmi status). One cannot talk about the jizya without talking about dhimis.

Dhimmis, “protected people,” are free to practice their religion in a Sharia regime, but are made subject to a number of humiliating regulations designed to enforce the Qur’an’s command that they “feel themselves subdued” (Sura 9:29). This denial of equality of rights and dignity remains part of the Sharia, and, as such, are part of the legal superstructure that global jihadists are laboring to restore everywhere in the Islamic world, and wish ultimately to impose on the entire human race.

…

If dhimmis complained about their inferior status, institutionalized humiliation, or poverty, their masters voided their contract and regarded them as enemies of Islam, fair game as objects of violence. Consequently, dhimmis were generally cowed into silence and worse. It was almost unheard-of to find dhimmis speaking out against their oppressors; to do so would have been suicide. For centuries dhimmi communities in the Islamic world learned to live in peace with their Muslim overlords by acquiescing to their subservience. Some even actively identified with the dominant class, and became strenuous advocates for it.

…

But in this era of global terrorism it must be said: this silence, this distortion, has become deadly. Before 9/11 it was easy to ignore and whitewash dhimmitude, but the atrocities changed the situation forever. In jihads throughout history, untold millions have died. Tens of millions have been uprooted from their homes. Tens of millions have been stripped of their cultural identity. To continue to gloss over the destruction wrought by jihad ideology and its attendant evil of dhimmitude is today to play into the hands of jihadists, who have repeatedly vowed to dhimmify the West and destroy any recalcitrant elements. While jihadist groups, even with their global diffusion, are not strong enough to realize this goal by themselves, they have a potent and destructive ally, a genuine fifth column, in the dhimmi academics and dhimmi journalists they have recruited in the West. They have succeeded in confusing millions in the West into mistaking honesty and truthfulness for bigotry, and self-defense for oppression.

… cont’d here