Mental/emotional affair

[Xantippe]

Needs? Let us hope we all know that having sex often enough to get pregnant once every year or two says nothing about the health of a couple’s sex life. Procreative takes a lot less contact and pretty much a lot less of everything else than the unitive aspect. If you want to get to 60 years and laughing together as your grandchildren are toasted at their weddings, you have to find a way to unitive, too. This couple has to find a meeting of the minds over their perpetual problems if they are going to get there. The good news is that finding a ground of understanding and even an affectionate sense of humor about your perpetual problems has this way of being the most unitive thing ever to happen to your sex life.

What I’m saying has nothing to do with “fair.” The first thing you learn when you are from a family with eight or more children (which I am) is that you don’t worry about “fair” until you get to “good.” If you have to choose between unfair and good or fair and bad, you go with good and accept the unfairness of it as the price of admission.

As for the drinking problem, it is almost the rule that drug and alcohol abuse start as self-medication for emotional problems the drinker does not know how to handle and maybe cannot handle without support, affection, and a feeling of security in his own skin. **Have you ever heard of someone threatening their spouse into clean and sober? I haven’t, and I’ll bet you haven’t, either. When that ever works, it works right away and before the path has been traveled long. It doesn’t work on a wagon road with deep ruts.
**
**They’ll only get out of this marriage happy and together if they find a way to a trusting friendship. You don’t get there with “you straighten up, then we’ll talk about being friends.” **That cannot work. How about, “you clean up, and then maybe you get one female friend, which will be me, the woman who has made herself your warden?”

Again, this has nothing to do with fair. Of course the OP has earned the right to be her husband’s warden. The truth is, though, she can be his wife and best friend or she can be his warden. She cannot be both. She has to choose one and renounce the other. Doing that, however, will require that she and her husband learn how friends go about having fights. If they can’t have real conflicts and still remain friends, their marriage is over, except for their address.

I have actually heard many stories of people straightening up and flying right with regard to alcohol or other addictions after being threatened by their spouse. Nicey-nice is the approach that almost never works with addiction.

As a matter of fact, I don’t see the problem with “you straighten up, then we’ll talk about being friends.” After all, is it really possible to be “friends” with a rage-y drunk?

I don’t suggest that she be his warden–but he has to clean up. He has a lot of stuff to do, and she cannot do it for him.

 

[Xantippe]

Gottman’s seminars deal with the concept of emotional flooding and how to self-manage that in the context of a conflict. I don’t know if they are the only ones, but they are among the most famous and are certainly the most evidence-based.

The OP may need to learn with her husband the signs in him that show he is experiencing emotional flooding. She may be able to see the signs before he is aware of them. If they can do that, they can learn how to help him learn to recognize his counter-productive emotional state coming on, deal with his emotional state directly before his frustration and anger erupt into rage but without attempting the futile strategy of putting a lid on it in the hopes it will go away.

In other words, she can help him to learn to recognize a physical state coming on that will preclude a skillful conflict. She can give him the assurance that he will have room to deal with that emotional state without capitulating or burying his frustrations. She can also learn to recognize counter-productive emotional strategies she may have, such as defensiveness or stonewalling.

I suggested the seminars I did because they come into research concerning how couples fight: that is, how the couples who are happily married fight as contrasted with the way couples who will eventually divorce fight. When the Gottmans learned that from careful observation of hundreds and hundreds of couples over many years, they developed methods of turning dirty fighters who cause damage but never get anywhere except into divorce court into fighters who are also lovers and best friends. Notice: these seminars don’t eliminate a couple’s conflicts. They teach couples to have fruitful conflicts that either don’t cause harm or else allow for clean healing from the bruises.

People think that happily married couples don’t have conflicts, but that isn’t true. They just know how to have them. It isn’t always quiet and reasonable. Couples can butt heads with strong emotions without hurting each other. They do have to learn how.

I love Gottman as much as the next gal (unless the next gal is Easter Joy), but I don’t think this is a situation the OP ought to try to manage by herself at home, even with help from a seminar.

I would suggest reading Why Does He Do That?: Inside the Minds of Angry and Controlling Men. (But, obviously, the OP’s husband should not see that book.) What the OP has described is either abuse or right next door to abuse.

 

[exiled]

In talking about the father of your eight children, you say you are “fed up with being married to a child who has no impulse control.”

In place of communication, you decided that the way a woman ought to confront her husband about her fears of infidelity was to *e-mail him *with a direct accusation. The way to deal with his anger management issues was to withhold yourself from him emotionally and sexually. After denying him your friendship altogether unless he did as you told him to do, you seem surprised that he sought the friendship of another woman.

You also report, *I decided to check his phone Thanksgiving morning. Truth is, I’ve been trying to check it for weeks, but it’s attached to his hip all the time. Anyway, when I looked at it, he had just texted her that I was “giving him a hard time” and that he couldn’t hang out any more. *Which is to say, you’ve been trying by hook or by crook to violate his privacy and he’s quite aware of it. If you had some right to see his text messages, you’d openly tell him you were going to look at his text messages. You wouldn’t sneak around so you could do it behind his back. I am thinking, however, that you believe you are justified in acting this way and then feeling hurt that he resents it.

You, mother of eight, sound as if you and your husband are headed straight for a divorce, and not an amicable one. Why, I do not know, but the symptoms are as serious as crushing chest paints and shortness of breath. You don’t trust each other. You don’t share a friendship with each other. You don’t have respect for each other. You deal with problems by withdrawing from the relationship. (Again: why, I do not know. This is not about blame, but about looking at* the symptoms that can be seen from the outside*.)

Do not pass go, do not collect $200. Try again to get together with your husband to figure out how to get past your perpetual problems with a crash course in communication skills and two major attitude adjustments. Otherwise, familiarize yourself with your finances and figure out how you are going to pay for and emotionally guide your children through a very nasty divorce. Those come about unilaterally these days, and I very much doubt you will both avoid the temptation of choosing one until natural death does you part.

staymarriedblog.com/the-art-science-of-love-15-favorite-moments-staymarried/?ct=t(July_Upcoming_ASL7_30_2015

gottman.com/couples/workshops/art-science-of-love/

The reason I email my husband about issues is because that is the only way he doesn’t yell.
For brevity sake, I told you the gist of the initial email, but it was not a direct accusation.

As for privacy, I don’t need privacy, and I don’t think faithful people have any reason to want or need it. I never, never, never bother to look at his phone. It’s a work phone and he always sets it aside in the evenings and on weekends. It was only after weeks of noticing that he seemed to always be on it that I started to pay more attention.

 

[exiled]

I think it’s up to the OP’s husband to get his rage under control. I would ask for a psychiatric evaluation.

There might be a serious underlying psychiatric condition, which would explain why all these visits to priests and counselors yielded so little effect. His rages may be something that he really cannot control without medication (or maybe even on medication)–but that’s really not something the OP can fix for him.

My husband just doesn’t stick with any of the counseling or spiritual direction. He goes a couple of times and things can still be challenging and he quits.
Now after this Thanksgiving fiasco I went to my priest. He said I’m under no obligation to have sex with him right now.
I want to draw a line in the sand, because he just can’t ask me to move on after each of these issues, especially when he refuses to confront his demons. I sympathize with him, but that doesn’t help him get any better. Sometimes ultimatums are all that is left, and a person has to hit the bottom before they can start moving up.
I don’t want my marriage to end, but it can’t go on like this, either.

 

[EasterJoy]

As for privacy, I don’t need privacy, and I don’t think faithful people have any reason to want or need it. I never, never, never bother to look at his phone. It’s a work phone and he always sets it aside in the evenings and on weekends. It was only after weeks of noticing that he seemed to always be on it that I started to pay more attention.

It is not for you to decide whether someone else in your life needs privacy. Respect requires that admission into someone’s mail or other private communications is done with their permission. Even in a marriage where the permission is always granted, it ought to always be obtained.

Did you or did you not look at his text messages without his prior knowledge and permission? Did you honestly believe he would be totally fine with this? If not, why didn’t you just say, “May I see your phone, please? You’ve been on it so much over the holiday weekend, I think I need to see what all the texts have been about.”

He seems to be sneaking and now you seem to be sneaking. Where is the trust? Where is the respect? What happened to your friendship? Find someone to help you get it back.

*The reason I email my husband about issues is because that is the only way he doesn’t yell. *

Is there not yelling in the end, anyway? Your friendship needs help–you think e-mail is a reasonable way to communicate about fidelity and infidelity!! Don’t you see that is not realistic?

I’m suggesting Gottman because they specialize in helping couples to see what communication strategies don’t work and which expectations are and are not realistic, why, and which strategies are most likely to work and will give the most realistic chance for a renewed friendship.

 

[EasterJoy]

I love Gottman as much as the next gal (unless the next gal is Easter Joy), but I don’t think this is a situation the OP ought to try to manage by herself at home, even with help from a seminar.

I would suggest reading Why Does He Do That?: Inside the Minds of Angry and Controlling Men. (But, obviously, the OP’s husband should not see that book.) What the OP has described is either abuse or right next door to abuse.

You’ll notice I didn’t suggest she try a book. You are right. She is describing a situation way beyond that. Besides, I came from a family with eight children. Oh, good heavens, the last thing I’d suggest is to a mother (or father) with eight children at home is that she read a book. (When would she have time for that?)

I suggested she and her husband try a seminar weekend staffed with marriage therapists aimed at teaching couples how to communicate in ways established by evidence-based research and giving them an opportunity to do it.

The OP knows she and her husband need a change in direction, and a drastic one. The problem with Marriage Encounter weekends is that they give couples a chance to communicate but do not provide anyone to help them with a confrontation they are not equipped to manage.

Her marriage is showing signs of one that is not going to last unless this couple changes the way they communicate and the way they conduct their friendship, and soon. It is totally useless to figure out whose fault it is that they are where they are. What she needs is someone who can help her identify how she and her husband might turn their relationship around and run it so that it will last.

 

[Xantippe]

You’ll notice I didn’t suggest she try a book. You are right. She is describing a situation way beyond that. Besides, I came from a family with eight children. Oh, good heavens, the last thing I’d suggest is to a mother (or father) with eight children at home is that she read a book. (When would she have time for that?)

I suggested she and her husband try a seminar weekend staffed with marriage therapists aimed at teaching couples how to communicate in ways established by evidence-based research and giving them an opportunity to do it.

The OP knows she and her husband need a change in direction, and a drastic one. The problem with Marriage Encounter weekends is that they give couples a chance to communicate but do not provide anyone to help them with a confrontation they are not equipped to manage.

**Her marriage is showing signs of one that is not going to last unless this couple changes the way they communicate and the way they conduct their friendship, and soon. **It is totally useless to figure out whose fault it is that they are where they are. What she needs is someone who can help her identify how she and her husband might turn their relationship around and run it so that it will last.

The question is, is the OP’s husband a beast with a charming prince inside–or is he beast all the way through?

I don’t think we can know for certain either way, but I hesitate to suggest spending too much time operating on the assumption that there is a charming prince in there somewhere, especially if the OP’s husband is not making a sustained effort to improve himself.

 

[pensmama87]

The question is, is the OP’s husband a beast with a charming prince inside–or is he beast all the way through?

I don’t think we can know for certain either way, but I hesitate to suggest spending too much time operating on the assumption that there is a charming prince in there somewhere, especially if the OP’s husband is not making a sustained effort to improve himself.

Especially since anger and alcohol are involved. That brings up big safety concerns.

 

[holyrood]

I greatly appreciate your perspective. Let me just say that I am not the jealous type, and in fact he has mentioned females before, and I have no issue with it. “Lisa” has had lunch with him before and he says, “I had lunch with Lisa”. No big deal. The thing that convinces me that there is something else in his mind is that he made the specific point, with this particular woman, of saying he was with guys/a man. That tells me there is something amiss.

I haven’t finished reading the thread but based on your original post, and this…I have been exactly where you are. Except with more children. Same exact behaviors. And when I started finding out about the multiple female friends, I was told it was my fault he ‘had to’ hide them because I was so insanely jealous. I had in fact never been the least bit jealous of any women he mentioned because I’d trusted him implicitly.

I can only speak from my experience–which was that where there are a dozen lies and deceptions you know of, there are probably a hundred more you don’t know of.

Like you, we went to counselors and priests. He was rude to them. He lied to them. He had one of them convinced I was imagining things.

There were temper issues. He put his head through a wall in a rage one night.

I ended up so messed up from his gaslighting that I found myself in a place where I could stare at something and wonder if I was actually seeing what I thought I was seeing. That was when I realized something had to give.

I got my ducks in a row, started making plans for how I would take care of that many kids alone if need be. I quit fighting with him, told him a few times things better change. He didn’t believe me.

When he started stealing money from my account (the only safety net we had, due to his spending), I filed. It was the only way to protect myself and the kids and keep a roof over our heads.

I was granted an annulment just a few weeks ago.

 

[twf]

There are a lot of issues here, but I wanted to comment on one point in the OP. The OP mentioned that she has made a point to have “intimate time” with her husband once per week. With 8 children that seems, to me, quite the feat! If the husband is complaining its not enough, I think the fault lays with him not the OP… my wife and I have one small child (14 months old) and having “intimate time” once a week definitely doesn’t consistently happen for us.

 

[holyrood]

It is not for you to decide whether someone else in your life needs privacy. Respect requires that admission into someone’s mail or other private communications is done with their permission. Even in a marriage where the permission is always granted, it ought to always be obtained.

Did you or did you not look at his text messages without his prior knowledge and permission? Did you honestly believe he would be totally fine with this? If not, why didn’t you just say, “May I see your phone, please? You’ve been on it so much over the holiday weekend, I think I need to see what all the texts have been about.”

He seems to be sneaking and now you seem to be sneaking. Where is the trust? Where is the respect? What happened to your friendship? Find someone to help you get it back.

*The reason I email my husband about issues is because that is the only way he doesn’t yell. *

Is there not yelling in the end, anyway? Your friendship needs help–you think e-mail is a reasonable way to communicate about fidelity and infidelity!! Don’t you see that is not realistic?

I’m suggesting Gottman because they specialize in helping couples to see what communication strategies don’t work and which expectations are and are not realistic, why, and which strategies are most likely to work and will give the most realistic chance for a renewed friendship.

I have agreed with you on many things over the years, but on this, I suspect you’ve never dealt with someone deceitful. What you suggest works wonderfully with someone who means well, who is honest, who is upright and wants a good and loving marriage.

These things don’t work with narcissists and sociopaths. They don’t work with liars and deceivers and men who want to have their cake and eat it, too.

I absolutely went into my husband’s e-mail. I have no regrets at all. Let’s keep in mind that I did everything right all along. I trusted him…and found out in retrospect, he’d been up to all kinds of no good for years behind my back while I trusted him and respected his privacy.

One result of my trust in him, and my respecting his privacy, was a series of horrible yeast infections–which occurred during the 18 to 24 months he was having ‘just e-mails’ with another woman. I’ve never had yeast infections before or since. Yeast infections can result from a man going back and forth between two women. And interestingly…I’ve never had a yeast infection since the day he (apparently) broke up with her.

In retrospect, I believe he took advantage of my trust, my ‘being best friends’ with him, my respect of his ‘privacy,’ to have multiple affairs–given facts I look back on. I can only thank God that all I got was severe yeast infections, and not STDs. I can only thank God that I never got an STD that adversely affected any of our children being born during those years.

But once I stumbled on the first information that led me to suspect…I did the right thing and talked to him calmly, rationally, asking for explanations. I got yelling. Why? Not because I did the wrong thing, but because he was a cheater who was going to drive me off asking by yelling, no matter how reasonably or lovingly I did it. The ONLY way to prevent yelling would have been to bury my head in the sand.

When I’d asked multiple times, when I’d presented evidence (is four slashed tires, always when he was at work enough evidence to think something was going on?) and it had been denied, I’d been yelled at, I’d been called crazy…when my health was at risk, when I began to fear what would happen if I were the one in the car, with my children, when those tired kept msyteriously blowing…you kow what, at that point, I don’t think his ‘privacy’ outranks my concerns for my health and my children’s health.

At that point, when I’ve gone to counseling, asked upfront, done everything right, and learned I AM going to be yelled at and lied to…yes, at that point, I have a right to know what danger I’m really being put in.

I have no regrets about violating his privacy. He, likewise, has no regrets about putting my and our children’s health and safety at risk. Which tells me I made the right choice.

 

[EasterJoy]

I’m hearing a lot of conjectures as to why the OP has legitimate reason to separate with the bond remaining.

I don’t doubt that she might. She may be married to a guy who is, by choice or by nature, “beast all the way through,” as Xantippe put it. She may be dealing with one of those “liars and deceivers and men who want to have their cake and eat it, too.”

In that case, her marriage is over, and perhaps has been invalid from the start. You don’t make liars and deceivers into upstanding truthful partners by issuing ultimatuums. “You cannot teach a pig to sing. You only frustrate yourself and annoy the pig.”

Would she be wise at this point to see an attorney to get advice on the do’s and don’ts of proceeding in a marriage to a man who may be capable of deceits she could have never imagined him capable of, a marriage that may not last regardless of what she is willing to do or endure? Should she know how to watch that their assets aren’t quietly siphoned off, that she does not make mistakes that would reduce alimony or child support payments or lead to some other woman living in her home with her children and her husband? Should she in fact find the best divorce attorney that she can afford, set up an appointment, listen to what that attorney has to say and follow that advice? I am afraid to say it, but she absolutely should. Deciding whether or not she is going to go through a divorce is not entirely up to her. She needs to be ready, just as surely as she’d need to put plywood over her windows and evacuate to high ground if a hurricane were headed towards her home.

I am not talking about that possibility, even though I agree she would be wise to prepare for it. I’m talking about the possibility that this couple may have a marriage left to salvage, that whatever has been going on between her husband and any other woman in the world might be something they can survive together, that they could find a way to have not only a marriage that survives but a marriage that is better than ever when this is all over.

If she wants to do what she can to assure herself that she did everything she could to save her marriage, I would strongly advise that she lose no time in ridding it of the toxic elements that have already settled into it,* if that is even possible at this point*. Those elements are there, those elements spell “Doom” for this marriage, and no amount of ultimatums and evidence of wrong-doing is going to change that. That is what I meant by pointing out that she, too, had started to get sneaky, that she, too, was using unrealistic means to communicate, that she, too, was showing signs of contempt for her spouse. This marriage is not in need of a line in the sand. It needs an intensive care unit.

If she wants to stay in, then, she needs to forget “fair” and look for whatever possible way she and her husband might learn a totally new way of talking to each other, listening to each other, and working with each other in order to face the real problems between them in the best way they can manage. If they do not do that soon, her marriage has almost no chance of lasting into their old age.

 

[exiled]

It is not for you to decide whether someone else in your life needs privacy. Respect requires that admission into someone’s mail or other private communications is done with their permission. Even in a marriage where the permission is always granted, it ought to always be obtained.

Did you or did you not look at his text messages without his prior knowledge and permission? Did you honestly believe he would be totally fine with this? If not, why didn’t you just say, “May I see your phone, please? You’ve been on it so much over the holiday weekend, I think I need to see what all the texts have been about.”

He seems to be sneaking and now you seem to be sneaking. Where is the trust? Where is the respect? What happened to your friendship? Find someone to help you get it back.

*The reason I email my husband about issues is because that is the only way he doesn’t yell. *

Is there not yelling in the end, anyway? Your friendship needs help–you think e-mail is a reasonable way to communicate about fidelity and infidelity!! Don’t you see that is not realistic?

I’m suggesting Gottman because they specialize in helping couples to see what communication strategies don’t work and which expectations are and are not realistic, why, and which strategies are most likely to work and will give the most realistic chance for a renewed friendship.

There is no doubt our marriage needs help, but it takes two, The fact is, he is the abusive one in this relationship, and for the 22 years I have started fresh again the next morning, on the advice of my spiritual director, and it only continues. I respectfully disagree that I am in any way responsible for this. I’m sure all that you are suggesting would work if both parties in a relationship are striving for holiness, but not when it’s just one of us.

 

[exiled]

The question is, is the OP’s husband a beast with a charming prince inside–or is he beast all the way through?

I don’t think we can know for certain either way, but I hesitate to suggest spending too much time operating on the assumption that there is a charming prince in there somewhere, especially if the OP’s husband is not making a sustained effort to improve himself.

“Sustained effort” You hit on it right there, and this is where I just can’t figure out what my obligation is. We reach a crisis like this and he will get loving and giving and sweet, which I’m supposed to respond immediately to by letting bygones be bygones. Then, after a few days the pattern starts again. Over 22 years I have been aware of pornography (I don’t think it’s an addiction, but I can definitely tell during intimacy when he’s got stuff going through his head), his temper is ALWAYS an issue, and now this. I can sympathize with the struggle men face with purity in our society where they are saturated with sex, but when my mother has to hide, or when a relationship with a woman becomes part of the equation, we have a new set of cards to deal with.

 

[exiled]

I haven’t finished reading the thread but based on your original post, and this…I have been exactly where you are. Except with more children. Same exact behaviors. And when I started finding out about the multiple female friends, I was told it was my fault he ‘had to’ hide them because I was so insanely jealous. I had in fact never been the least bit jealous of any women he mentioned because I’d trusted him implicitly.

I can only speak from my experience–which was that where there are a dozen lies and deceptions you know of, there are probably a hundred more you don’t know of.

Like you, we went to counselors and priests. He was rude to them. He lied to them. He had one of them convinced I was imagining things.

There were temper issues. He put his head through a wall in a rage one night.

I ended up so messed up from his gaslighting that I found myself in a place where I could stare at something and wonder if I was actually seeing what I thought I was seeing. That was when I realized something had to give.

I got my ducks in a row, started making plans for how I would take care of that many kids alone if need be. I quit fighting with him, told him a few times things better change. He didn’t believe me.

When he started stealing money from my account (the only safety net we had, due to his spending), I filed. It was the only way to protect myself and the kids and keep a roof over our heads.

I was granted an annulment just a few weeks ago.

Oh, my goodness, I am so, so sorry for what you went through! And you’ve pointed out exactly what I’ve tried to say to him, that for the handful of lies I’ve caught (on this recent issue with this woman) there are another dozen that I haven’t caught.
In my husband’s case, when he’s good, he’s really, really good! I just can’t count on who is going to walk through the door at the end of the day. I have adapted my language, my daily routine and everything about the kids so that a sideways glance tells them “you better move”.
He wants me to believe that he hasn’t communicated with this woman since Thanksgiving morning, when he told her I was giving him a hard time. How can I believe that? There is really no way to prove it, and the only way for me to not be all knotted up inside is to say, “I quit” on this marriage.

 

[pianistclare]

I haven’t finished reading the thread but based on your original post, and this…I have been exactly where you are. Except with more children. Same exact behaviors. And when I started finding out about the multiple female friends, I was told it was my fault he ‘had to’ hide them because I was so insanely jealous. I had in fact never been the least bit jealous of any women he mentioned because I’d trusted him implicitly.

I can only speak from my experience–which was that where there are a dozen lies and deceptions you know of, there are probably a hundred more you don’t know of.

Like you, we went to counselors and priests. He was rude to them. He lied to them. He had one of them convinced I was imagining things.

There were temper issues. He put his head through a wall in a rage one night.

I ended up so messed up from his gaslighting that I found myself in a place where I could stare at something and wonder if I was actually seeing what I thought I was seeing. That was when I realized something had to give.

I got my ducks in a row, started making plans for how I would take care of that many kids alone if need be. I quit fighting with him, told him a few times things better change. He didn’t believe me.

When he started stealing money from my account (the only safety net we had, due to his spending), I filed. It was the only way to protect myself and the kids and keep a roof over our heads.

I was granted an annulment just a few weeks ago.

Thank you for your testimony. I could be mine as well with my late husband.
I get particularly frustrated when people say things that hint around about being a better, more understanding, more loving wife. More flexible. More forgiving, more more more.

I really makes me sick.

God bless you and your children. I hope the OP reads it over and over.

 

[Xantippe]

“Sustained effort” You hit on it right there, and this is where I just can’t figure out what my obligation is. ** We reach a crisis like this and he will get loving and giving and sweet, which I’m supposed to respond immediately to by letting bygones be bygones. Then, after a few days the pattern starts again. ** Over 22 years I have been aware of pornography (I don’t think it’s an addiction, but I can definitely tell during intimacy when he’s got stuff going through his head), his temper is ALWAYS an issue, and now this. I can sympathize with the struggle men face with purity in our society where they are saturated with sex, but when my mother has to hide, or when a relationship with a woman becomes part of the equation, we have a new set of cards to deal with.

Does this circle look familiar?

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cycle_of_abuse

Wow–just a few days of good behavior! That is a very tight cycle.

 

[exiled]

Thank you for your testimony. I could be mine as well with my late husband.
I get particularly frustrated when people say things that hint around about being a better, more understanding, more loving wife. More flexible. More forgiving, more more more.

I really makes me sick.

God bless you and your children. I hope the OP reads it over and over.

I’ve said to my spiritual director a dozen times, “Me again? You want ME to do something AGAIN?” When the heck does HE have to do something? (not that he sees a spiritual director) But there has got to some a time when enough is enough.

 

[Xantippe]

I’ve said to my spiritual director a dozen times, “Me again? You want ME to do something AGAIN?” When the heck does HE have to do something? (not that he sees a spiritual director) But there has got to some a time when enough is enough.

Telling he needs to stop drinking and see a counselor regularly with and without you would be a very reasonable ultimatum.

 

[pianistclare]

I’ve said to my spiritual director a dozen times, “Me again? You want ME to do something AGAIN?” When the heck does HE have to do something? (not that he sees a spiritual director) But there has got to some a time when enough is enough.

Yes. My late husband told me the counselor didn’t want to see me or speak to me, that I was the whole problem…
That he was teaching HER about good counseling sessions and that she could learn a lot from him!
Told the priest that he was clueless because he had never been married
Told everyone that AA was for losers, not smart people like him.

I could go on and on.
Once they reach that place…nothing you could possibly do would change them.
It’s inside of them. And it seldom comes to a satisfactory end.
How can it? They’re never wrong. They’re smarter than everyone else.
Women are unreasonable and children are annoying.

Yeah.
Been there.
He abused us one last time. Then he died.

But it’s over now.
I’m happily (very happily) remarried to a good and gentle man.

I wish you all the best.
Praying hard for you.