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Struggling1
Guest
Why is it that only the gospel of John features Jesus saying he is God? I found John 5:17-18, john 8:19, john 10:30 but I can’t find anything from the other Gospels?
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joeybaggz
Guest
I’m not good at chapter and verse off the top of my head, but I do believe there are other instances in the Gospels where Jesus refers to himself as “I Am” (Before Abraham came to be, I AM) Would have to look them up but I’m pretty sure they are there.
Jesus says, “I am going to the Father” and refers himself to the son. Our Catholic creed uses the word “consubstantial” to describe the relationship between Jesus and The Father (consubstantial meaning “of the same substance” ) I am sure this understanding is derived from the gospels.
Another thought. If Jesus is not God, how could he give the keys to the kingdom to Peter. By what authority?
Struggling. you’ve read one passage. Your understanding is a very Protestant one it seems to me. That everything must be in Scripture. I think some of your other threads, posters have said to you that both Scripture and Sacred Tradition, the oral handing on of the gospel, is the foundation of the RCC. Suggest you approach scripture as a continuum from which you can derive doctrine.
Jesus says, “I am going to the Father” and refers himself to the son. Our Catholic creed uses the word “consubstantial” to describe the relationship between Jesus and The Father (consubstantial meaning “of the same substance” ) I am sure this understanding is derived from the gospels.
Another thought. If Jesus is not God, how could he give the keys to the kingdom to Peter. By what authority?
Struggling. you’ve read one passage. Your understanding is a very Protestant one it seems to me. That everything must be in Scripture. I think some of your other threads, posters have said to you that both Scripture and Sacred Tradition, the oral handing on of the gospel, is the foundation of the RCC. Suggest you approach scripture as a continuum from which you can derive doctrine.
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Struggling1
Guest
That I will sorry to bother!
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PaulfromIowa
Guest
The Transfiguration (Matthew 17:1–8, Mark 9:2–8, Luke 9:28–36) is where it is shown clearly to the Apostles that Christ is the Son of God.
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joeybaggz
Guest
No bother, if I take your reply correctly. I approach Scripture as the raw ingredients from which I can weave a tapestry. And I have a lot of fellow “weavers” helping me along the way.
Shalom.
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Hereiam
Guest
It the difference in Christology; John employed High Christology and the synoptics presented Low Christology.
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adf417
Guest
Technically Jesus never says he is God. He leaves that conclusion up to each individual and this is a common theme throughout as we first see with the exchange w/ Peter in Mt 16:15 . You are blessed that you can make that conclusion where many others cannot.
ray:t3:I dont know of Christological statements spacifically in the other 3 gospel accounts but there are many throughout the NT. Some are more implicit than others such as…
Col 1:15-17 when read in conjuction with Heb 3:4
If you truly want to see these ststements jump off the page while reading scripture, pray for this understanding 1st and you will be amazed. The implicit notions become explicit reality only to the open heart.
Peace!!!
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AlNg
Guest
Would it have been better to state clearly what the situation is so that there would be no misunderstanding in the future. The JW claim that He is not God and they have their own interpretation of Scriptural passages which are often cited to show his divinity.
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GodSoughtMe
Guest
The below is by no means exhaustive:
I want to say this right off the bat. We have a tendency to give priority to the Gospels, and to those passages of the Gospels that are the character of Christ’s lines. But this is not good scholarship. The Gospels are later than the epistles, and in the Gospels, because there was no grammatical concept of verbatim quotation, the character of Christ’s words do not carry more weight than the author’s lines about him. “Where does Jesus say that?” Is a silly question. Jesus didn’t write the Bible, and he isn’t usually exactly quoted either.
Anywhyo,
The “I AM” statements of Jesus in John are pretty clear, but they are really clear in light of the John’s prologue,(Jn1:1;1:14-15) and Thomas’ proclamation after the resurrection.( Jn20:28-29)
Some people see the explicit-ness of John and wonder why the Synoptics are not as clear.
In the Synoptics, while perhaps they do not have as robust an assertion, clearly Christ is not just a man. The Synoptics’ frequent “Son of Man” title, casts Jesus as a cosmic and apocalyptic figure, prophesied by Daniel (7:14). The figure in Daniel, by the way, “appears like a son of man,” the implication being that he may not even be human. This figure, surrounded by God’s glory, is to rule the whole world, all kingdoms and nations, and he approaches God and God-hood in the vision.
In Mk14:61-64 this connection is enunciated. The high priest asks if he is the Messiah, and if he is the Son of God. Jesus answers that, not only is he the apocalyptic world-ending figure of Daniel, with a reference to Daniel 7 - but he starts by making an “I AM” statement.
Significantly, Mark, in this first Gospel, has identified “Son of Man,” “Christ,” “Son of God,” and “I Am that I Am,” as one person: Jesus of Nazoreth. Thus, when Matthew and Luke use the title, it carries this definition.
In Matthew, we learn that only God should be worshipped. (Mt4:10) But we see Matthew write approvingly of the magi lying prostrate before the Infant and worshipping him, bringing symbolic gifts that symbolize his divinity. (Mt2:11)
All four gospels contain a baptism narrative, the specifics of which even Bart Ehrman claims is an assertion of Christ’s divinity; and of course, as mentioned above, the Transfiguration.
In the Pauline epistles, which predate the Gospels, we find Paul quote hymns which predate his letters. Philippians 2:8-6 is such a hymn; it describes Christ as having equality with God, subsisting in the form of God, and looking nothing like Man - then, Christ chooses to be humbled and takes the form of God’s servant, choosing to be “like” men and to be “in appearance” human. The pre-Pauline hymns are the closest we get to the life of Christ. You have more grounds here to doubt Christ’s humanity than his divinity. This is similar to a claim he makes 2Cor 8:9.
Paul also asserts that Christ was with the Israelites in the desert. ( 1Cor10:4) That he is the very “Wisdom of God,” and the “Power of God.” (1Cor1:18).
1Col.1:17, a later Pauline epistle, also asserts that Christ pre-existed the Universe, and Christ maintains the Universe.
I want to say this right off the bat. We have a tendency to give priority to the Gospels, and to those passages of the Gospels that are the character of Christ’s lines. But this is not good scholarship. The Gospels are later than the epistles, and in the Gospels, because there was no grammatical concept of verbatim quotation, the character of Christ’s words do not carry more weight than the author’s lines about him. “Where does Jesus say that?” Is a silly question. Jesus didn’t write the Bible, and he isn’t usually exactly quoted either.
Anywhyo,
The “I AM” statements of Jesus in John are pretty clear, but they are really clear in light of the John’s prologue,(Jn1:1;1:14-15) and Thomas’ proclamation after the resurrection.( Jn20:28-29)
Some people see the explicit-ness of John and wonder why the Synoptics are not as clear.
In the Synoptics, while perhaps they do not have as robust an assertion, clearly Christ is not just a man. The Synoptics’ frequent “Son of Man” title, casts Jesus as a cosmic and apocalyptic figure, prophesied by Daniel (7:14). The figure in Daniel, by the way, “appears like a son of man,” the implication being that he may not even be human. This figure, surrounded by God’s glory, is to rule the whole world, all kingdoms and nations, and he approaches God and God-hood in the vision.
In Mk14:61-64 this connection is enunciated. The high priest asks if he is the Messiah, and if he is the Son of God. Jesus answers that, not only is he the apocalyptic world-ending figure of Daniel, with a reference to Daniel 7 - but he starts by making an “I AM” statement.
Significantly, Mark, in this first Gospel, has identified “Son of Man,” “Christ,” “Son of God,” and “I Am that I Am,” as one person: Jesus of Nazoreth. Thus, when Matthew and Luke use the title, it carries this definition.
In Matthew, we learn that only God should be worshipped. (Mt4:10) But we see Matthew write approvingly of the magi lying prostrate before the Infant and worshipping him, bringing symbolic gifts that symbolize his divinity. (Mt2:11)
All four gospels contain a baptism narrative, the specifics of which even Bart Ehrman claims is an assertion of Christ’s divinity; and of course, as mentioned above, the Transfiguration.
In the Pauline epistles, which predate the Gospels, we find Paul quote hymns which predate his letters. Philippians 2:8-6 is such a hymn; it describes Christ as having equality with God, subsisting in the form of God, and looking nothing like Man - then, Christ chooses to be humbled and takes the form of God’s servant, choosing to be “like” men and to be “in appearance” human. The pre-Pauline hymns are the closest we get to the life of Christ. You have more grounds here to doubt Christ’s humanity than his divinity. This is similar to a claim he makes 2Cor 8:9.
Paul also asserts that Christ was with the Israelites in the desert. ( 1Cor10:4) That he is the very “Wisdom of God,” and the “Power of God.” (1Cor1:18).
1Col.1:17, a later Pauline epistle, also asserts that Christ pre-existed the Universe, and Christ maintains the Universe.
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Bon_Croix
Guest
For those of us who pray the Rosary:
Jesus’s reply to Mary and Joseph when they found him in the temple. And, the Holy Spirit’s communication to the people when Jesus was baptized. And, Gabriel’s announcement to Mary.
Also, Jesus’s reply to Peter’s admission that Jesus is the Christ when the apostle’s were asked by Jesus.
And, surely many times relayed by Paul’s writings.
Jesus’s reply to Mary and Joseph when they found him in the temple. And, the Holy Spirit’s communication to the people when Jesus was baptized. And, Gabriel’s announcement to Mary.
Also, Jesus’s reply to Peter’s admission that Jesus is the Christ when the apostle’s were asked by Jesus.
And, surely many times relayed by Paul’s writings.
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KJW5551
Guest
Jesus is divine in all four Gospels. Here is one of many examples in Matthew:
Divinity of Jesus in the Synoptics: Matthew 12:1-8 Sacred Scripture
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adf417
Guest
Lk 16:31 - But he said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.”adf417:
Would it have been better to state clearly what the situation is so that there would be no misunderstanding in the future. The JW claim that He is not God and they have their own interpretation of Scriptural passages which are often cited to show his divinity.
That free will thing is difficult to get around.
Peace!!!
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AlNg
Guest
It wasn’t difficult for Euclid to be clear and unambiguous. People with free will do not disagree with the results or propositions stated in Euclid’s Elements.
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adf417
Guest
People with free will always disagree with Euclids propositions, they just havent proven their case, yet.adf417:
It wasn’t difficult for Euclid to be clear and unambiguous. People with free will do not disagree with the results or propositions stated in Euclid’s Elements.
…but we digress, since free will is viewed completely different when it comes to faith as opposed to science.Peace!!!
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midori
Guest
It’s also important to realize that Jesus is wielding authority only given to God in all four gospels.
For example-- who can forgive sins? The person you’ve wrong… and God. If you steal Fred’s lunch money, I’m not in a position to forgive you for stealing Fred’s lunch money. Fred can forgive you… and God can forgive you, because the reason sin is bad is that all sins are against God.
So-- for example, you have your Mark 2 (which is also in your Matthew 9).
For example-- who can forgive sins? The person you’ve wrong… and God. If you steal Fred’s lunch money, I’m not in a position to forgive you for stealing Fred’s lunch money. Fred can forgive you… and God can forgive you, because the reason sin is bad is that all sins are against God.
So-- for example, you have your Mark 2 (which is also in your Matthew 9).
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midori
Guest
Likewise, you have him teaching with authority. For example, you have your Matthew 5–
So, here he’s saying-- “You’ve heard it said—” — who’s doing the saying? That would be, like, God. And Moses speaking on behalf of God. And the prophets speaking on behalf of God. But he follows it up with, “But I say to you—” and you immediately see how he’s elevating himself not just to the same level as Moses and the Prophets, but he’s elevating himself beyond that, to God’s position. Because he’s not saying, “This is what God really means,” but he’s saying, “This is what I mean.”
So, here he’s saying-- “You’ve heard it said—” — who’s doing the saying? That would be, like, God. And Moses speaking on behalf of God. And the prophets speaking on behalf of God. But he follows it up with, “But I say to you—” and you immediately see how he’s elevating himself not just to the same level as Moses and the Prophets, but he’s elevating himself beyond that, to God’s position. Because he’s not saying, “This is what God really means,” but he’s saying, “This is what I mean.”
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AlNg
Guest
Euclid’s theorems are unambiguous and clear and universally accepted as correct within the framework of Plane Geometry. Give us an example of someone who disagrees that in plane geometry the base angles of an isosceles triangle are equal.
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adf417
Guest
As i said, they just havent proven their case, yet - and porbably never will. This does not negate the notion that people will try and at least be open to the possibility to do so, which still has nothing to do with faith or this thread.adf417:
Euclid’s theorems are unambiguous and clear and universally accepted as correct within the framework of Plane Geometry. Give us an example of someone who disagrees that in plane geometry the base angles of an isosceles triangle are equal.
Peace!!!
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AlNg
Guest
The question is the divinity of Jesus and whether or not it is mentioned in the Bible. That is the topic under discussion. There are those who say yes, and there are those who say no. OTOH, there is no one who says that the base angles of an isosceles triangle are not equal. Why is that. It is because some people see ambiguity in the Bible, whereas there are subjects in which there is no ambiguity. So as regards the divinity of Jesus, why is the Bible not crystal clear on the subject so as to prevent any misunderstanding or disagreement among those reading and studying Holy Scripture?
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