MERGED: And With Your Spirit

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surritter said:
RIght. I brought it up to point out that most people would think it to be bad grammar. But it ain’t.
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I believe it is bad grammar if you loook at it from a different prospective.

When the Priest makes the invocation greeting to the congregation

The Lord Be With You naturally we have answered for the last 45 years And Also With You

The Priest initial greeting (The Lord Be With You) is made on behalf of God.

The congregations reply (And also with you) makes it sound like were greeting the Priest himself. the Original translation And With Thy/Your Spirit makes it imply the greeting isn’t just an exchange of prayer between man himself but more toward God. At least IMHO that’s how I understand it and have read it from more traditional theologians.

Obviously there was a more direct reason why our Pope Benedict XVI wanted it changed back to the original translation amongst many other changes to the prayers in the new reformed liturgy.
 
TheRealJuliane said:
Yep, that’s exactly where my parishes are…

Kind of like when you are learning a new language and your sentence structure comes out muddled…halfway between…
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Amazing how much of the congregation fouled it up even when they had printed cards right there in front of them and were ostensibly reading from those cards!
 
Change always takes time. I still occasionally blurt-out, “It is meet and right so to do,” during the Sursum Corda.
 
martininthefiel said:
Change always takes time. I still occasionally blurt-out, “It is meet and right so to do,” during the Sursum Corda.
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Yes, but where is the “Lift” in Sursum Corda, literally “Upwards Hearts”? It’s a directional thing; they could have easily made it “Turn your hearts upwards” but that’s another thread. 🙂
 
ProVobis said:
Yes, but where is the “Lift” in Sursum Corda, literally “Upwards Hearts”? It’s a directional thing; they could have easily made it “Turn your hearts upwards” but that’s another thread. 🙂
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That’s still there, but in the prior response. I admit that I’ve never heard of “it is meet and right so to do” (was that ever in a Mass in English?)

So I looked it up on Wikipedia:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sursum_corda

If you look under “traditional English” it shows the people’s reply as
“We lift them [hearts] up unto the Lord.”
then
“It is meet and right so to do.”
 
surritter said:
That’s still there, but in the prior response. I admit that I’ve never heard of “it is meet and right so to do” (was that ever in a Mass in English?)

So I looked it up on Wikipedia:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sursum_corda

If you look under “traditional English” it shows the people’s reply as
“We lift them [hearts] up unto the Lord.”
then
“It is meet and right so to do.”
Click to expand...
There is no traditional English in the Catholic Mass. And you’re just looking at the responses and assuming or presuming the priest’s parts are accurately translated, are you not? (“The Lord BE with you,” “LIFT up your hearts” etc.) There is no subjunctive BE or verb LIFT in the Latin, no matter what the pre-Vatican II handmissal says. It seems as if the priest’s versicle has to be part of the translation equation. At least that’s what I was trying to say.
 
surritter said:
That’s still there, but in the prior response. I admit that I’ve never heard of “it is meet and right so to do” (was that ever in a Mass in English?)

So I looked it up on Wikipedia:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sursum_corda

If you look under “traditional English” it shows the people’s reply as
“We lift them [hearts] up unto the Lord.”
then
“It is meet and right so to do.”
Click to expand...
That is from the Book of Common Prayer used by Anglicans.
 
“It is meet and right so to do,” is from the Book of Common Prayer:

The Lord be with you.
-And With thy spirit.
Lift up your hearts.
-We Lift them up unto the Lord.
Let us give thanks to our Lord God.
-It is meet and right so to do.

Indeed, part of the Sursum Corda.

Yes, I used to be an Episcopalian. Just trying to make the point that change comes hard.

When we changed to 'It is right to give Him thanks and praise," one would always hear someone shout-out the old response. Same is true for the old and new creed translations.
 
surritter said:
By now, we all know about the new translation that is upon our doorstep. I welcome these changes! But it does bring up a question about the people’s response “And with your spirit.”

First off, I am aware of why this response was changed from “And also with you.” It is because it is the more accurate translation of the Latin. I get that.

But I’m wondering why the Latin even says “spiritu.” As Catholics, we heartily believe that the human is both body and soul. It would seem more “full” to have the reply encompass the full person, body and spirit. To say “and with your spirit” seems to downplay the bodily aspect of humanity – not to the point of Dualism or anything – but still it would seem better to wish God’s presence upon the full body and spirit of a person.
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It is an acknowledgement that the Holy Spirit is working through the priest and that the power of the Mass is not a power than comes from the priest, it’s a spiritual power that comes from God.
 
wayman said:
It is an acknowledgement that the Holy Spirit is working through the priest and that the power of the Mass is not a power than comes from the priest, it’s a spiritual power that comes from God.
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The spiritual power of the Mass comes through the priest. We all have our parts to play in the Mass, and the priest’s part is different from the congregation’s parts. The congregation is to receive the power of the Holy Spirit.

It’s a Mary/Martha thing. Receiving is the better part of the two. The ability to recognize that fact has been obscured by some of the more political ideologues in the Church who are frankly more interested in grasping power than in reception.
 
Did anybody read the article I posted? It goes beyond the priest.
 
Hi

I asked my Pastor what this new response means…in what way is the meaning different from “And also with you.”. Most of the new wording I understand, in terms of the new translation being subtly different from the old. But the “with your spirit” phrase makes no sense to me. I don’t get it.

Can anyone offer an explanation on what the difference might be?

My Pastor gave a very long and rambling explanation which really didn’t help me.

Thanks!
 
There will be someone who will be able to articulate it far better then I, but for now I’ll tell you the best I know.

It has to do with the “spirit” in the priest. He is another Christ in the Mass, 'persona christi (in the person of Christ) - I think

The way we use to say it sounded very much like a Hello and we responded in kind with a simular, and also with you, or imagine it like, Hello to you too.

So when the priest says … the Lord be with you, and we respond ‘and with your spirit’ we are referring to Christ’s spirit present in the priest durring Mass

Well, hopefully it helps some
 
What does “your spirit” mean here? St. John Chrysostom (A.D. 347-407), bishop of Constantinople and a Church Father, spoke about the response “and with your spirit” in a sermon at a Divine Liturgy celebrated by another bishop:
If the Holy Spirit were not in [Bishop Flavian], you would not …] have cried out with one accord, “And with your spirit.” Thus you cry out to him, not only when he ascends his throne, when he speaks to you and prays for you, but also when he stands at this holy altar to offer the awesome Sacrifice. He does not touch that which lies on the altar before wishing you the grace of our Lord and before you have replied to him: “And with your spirit.” By this cry you are reminded that he who stands at the altar does nothing, and that the gifts that rest thereon are not the merits of man, but that the grace of the Holy Spirit is present and, descending on all, accomplishes this mysterious Sacrifice. We see indeed a man, but God it is Who acts through him. Nothing human takes place at this holy altar. (First Homily for the Feast of Pentecost, 4)
According to St. John Chrysostom, the response to the bishop (or priest) emphasizes the presence and action of the Holy Spirit in him.
 
And here are two other early explanations of the phrase:
In saying “and with your spirit” they do not refer to his soul, but to the grace of the Holy Spirit by which his people believe that he is called to the priesthood. (Theodore of Mopsuestia, Baptismal Homilies, 15, 37)
The people answer the priest and say: “With you, O priest, and with that priestly spirit of yours.” They call spirit not that soul which is in the priest, but the (power of the) spirit which the priest has received so that he may perform the divine mysteries. (Narsi of Nisibis, Exposition of the Mysteries Homily 17 A)
 
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