MERGED: Applauding after Mass Poll / Why?

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Convert2013 View Post
Because someone doesn’t clap or doesn’t think it’s appropriate, means they are "grim faced Christians? Many people in my parish kneel down and pray at the end and I’m sure are over joyed with the Mass and having been able to receive Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament. I know I am! Does that make those of us who are saying a prayer of Thanksgiving like Saul? I think that would be a disruption from the peaceful beauty of the Mass and to those who are praying.

One of the many reasons I have come to enjoy daily Mass as much if not more. The reverence and peace. No one is chatting in the pews about social life, clapping, etc. Those who come to daily Mass seem to appreciate where they are as opposed to the majority at Sunday Mass.

Completely agree with everything you said.

Sorry, but I disagree with everything you said. Nothing personal of course, just my observation. How does a 5 second applause at the end of a closing song become a disruption to those who want to pray. It doesn’t go on forever disrupting their entire prayer. Before they get to kneel or sit, the applause is done! Do those people complain? We must also remember that mass is a public event before, during, and immediately after and not time for private devotion. Also, people are talking as they leave and in the vestibule which carries on longer which is heard throughout the church at times. If those who feel that a short 5 second applause at the end of mass is disruptive (which I really don’t think they feel), there is the chapel and the adoration chapel which is dedicated for private prayer.

 

[rondirect]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Convert2013 View Post
Because someone doesn’t clap or doesn’t think it’s appropriate, means they are "grim faced Christians? Many people in my parish kneel down and pray at the end and I’m sure are over joyed with the Mass and having been able to receive Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament. I know I am! Does that make those of us who are saying a prayer of Thanksgiving like Saul? I think that would be a disruption from the peaceful beauty of the Mass and to those who are praying.

One of the many reasons I have come to enjoy daily Mass as much if not more. The reverence and peace. No one is chatting in the pews about social life, clapping, etc. Those who come to daily Mass seem to appreciate where they are as opposed to the majority at Sunday Mass.

Sorry, but I disagree with everything you said. Nothing personal of course, just my observation. How does a 5 second applause at the end of a closing song become a disruption to those who want to pray. It doesn’t go on forever disrupting their entire prayer. Before they get to kneel or sit, the applause is done! Do those people complain? I notice a few people at our masses that stay, clap along and sing to the end of the song, give affirmation with applause, then sit and pray. It is not a big deal to them. We must also remember that mass is a public event before, during, and immediately after and not time for private devotion in a place that they might think is disruptive. Also, people are talking as they leave and in the vestibule which carries on longer which is heard throughout the church at times. If those who feel that a short 5 second applause at the end of mass is disruptive (which I really don’t think they feel), there is the chapel and the adoration chapel which is dedicated for private prayer. I like the comment that “it is mandatory with Spanish community.” Are they considered people of less respect? Why is it such an issue with the American culture?

 

[Joe_5859]

Sorry, but I disagree with everything you said. Nothing personal of course, just my observation. How does a 5 second applause at the end of a closing song become a disruption to those who want to pray. It doesn’t go on forever disrupting their entire prayer. Before they get to kneel or sit, the applause is done! Do those people complain? I notice a few people at our masses that stay, clap along and sing to the end of the song, give affirmation with applause, then sit and pray. It is not a big deal to them. We must also remember that mass is a public event before, during, and immediately after and not time for private devotion in a place that they might think is disruptive. Also, people are talking as they leave and in the vestibule which carries on longer which is heard throughout the church at times. If those who feel that a short 5 second applause at the end of mass is disruptive (which I really don’t think they feel), there is the chapel and the adoration chapel which is dedicated for private prayer. I like the comment that “it is mandatory with Spanish community.” Are they considered people of less respect? Why is it such an issue with the American culture?

Not every Church is built the same way. My parish does not have any adoration chapel or other side chapels to which one might retreat to pray.

Not to go off on a tangent about talking after Mass. That’s a whole separate issue.

You’re right that applause is a momentary distraction. And whenever I am at such a parish, I choose to shrug it off and do my post-Mass prayer as always. But that doesn’t mean it still won’t bother some of us.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

Sorry, but I disagree with everything you said. Nothing personal of course, just my observation. How does a 5 second applause at the end of a closing song become a disruption to those who want to pray. It doesn’t go on forever disrupting their entire prayer. Before they get to kneel or sit, the applause is done! Do those people complain? I notice a few people at our masses that stay, clap along and sing to the end of the song, give affirmation with applause, then sit and pray. It is not a big deal to them. We must also remember that mass is a public event before, during, and immediately after and not time for private devotion in a place that they might think is disruptive. Also, people are talking as they leave and in the vestibule which carries on longer which is heard throughout the church at times. If those who feel that a short 5 second applause at the end of mass is disruptive (which I really don’t think they feel), there is the chapel and the adoration chapel which is dedicated for private prayer. I like the comment that “it is mandatory with Spanish community.” Are they considered people of less respect? Why is it such an issue with the American culture?

You have several issues in your post. Firstly the Direction for silence before and after Mass does not have the qualifier “after a 5 second rupture for appreciation of a human event.” For what ever reason and for however long we are encouraged to have silence for prayer after Mass. You will not find exceptions to this rule because of a custom for appreciation for concerts.

Secondly I note that you talk of those who wish to stay and pray as “them” separating themselves from you. And so much so that you suggest “they” should be the ones to remove “themselves” when the Church clearly calls “them” (and you) to have some silent reflection after the sacrifice of the Mass.

Third. There are several examples where people use the “culture” excuse for all kinds of oddities at Mass. The fact is true “american” culture is a blend of ALL cultures and so therefore is handicapped when trying to establish something as “culture”

Honestly do we want to have our “culture” reflect the ignorance we have of the Mass and the directives that govern it?

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

One of the reasons for clapping is to express appreciation. Since music is only one ministry among others, I would think it logical that they might be clapping for the readers, for the EMHC’s, and, might I add, even for the ushers. The ushers may not have a voice to sing for the Lord, nor feel comfortable getting up to a mic in front of 200 people, but they certainly serve a very useful purpose during Mass. All these functions are ministry – is one more important than the other (assuming they are applauding for the people who serve?)

Here is my main dilemma. Please help! If they are applauding for the people who have served community during the Mass, does this then draw attention back to man as opposed to satisfying two of the four “ends” of the Mass which are praise and adoration of the Lord and thanksgiving to Him? I mean, after all, we have just been to Calvary!

Interesting. The argument has been made that the clapping is a cultural response that is appropriate and polite. It is a way to express gratitude for those that perform at Mass. But that should go both ways. And in our culture, after you play music, and people clap in thanksgiving you should acknowledge the gesture with a bow. This is done in theatre and music. So, if we wish to have people follow social protocol the band/choir members should bow. And if the clapping is also for the lectors, altar servers etc. They should also come up around the altar, join hands, step forward and bow.

Of course it is a little tongue in cheek but think about it. The logic should be applied fairly. And after Mass, the Choir/band, and all “performers” should be pro populous bowing to the people in the pews. Perhaps an encore could be encouraged.

I find it quite rude when people who at even the annoyance of others wish to express through clapping appreciation and “unbridled” joy that then the object of the affection refuses to acknowledge the gesture.

Come on performers! Be polite! Bow to us!

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

Perhaps something to think about during lent. Would you clap, at the foot of the Cross? With blood and tears streaming down the wood. With the pure innocent sacrifice being offered for you by an innocent man and Our Lord? Would you clap at the last supper when Jesus gives you his body and blood?

What we have here is a view of the Mass based on a “feeling” and not on a reflection or belief. I could care less if the band/choir was amazing or sounded horrible. I do care that they are respectful and reverent and follow the rubrics. But beyond that I do not care.

Here is a great article about the silence in Church we are so awkward about and afraid of. It likens it to the silence after 9-11.

catholicnewsagency.com/resources/roman-missal-3rd-edition/bishops/silence-and-the-liturgy/
I notice at the good friday service there is no clapping, silence. And that silence is more deafening and moving than any clapping.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

I clap to say ‘Thank You!’ The reason I clap after the last note is because even though technically the Mass is already over, I consider the final hymn as still part of the Mass. It annoys me that people rush out to leave the Church even before the presider processes out.

Don’t forget that during Pope John Paul II’s Funeral Mass, there was plenty of clapping. I’ve heard that it’s an Italian tradition.

Some of us are leaving before the clapping riot breaks out.

 

[clem456]

Perhaps something to think about during lent. Would you clap, at the foot of the Cross? With blood and tears streaming down the wood. With the pure innocent sacrifice being offered for you by an innocent man and Our Lord? Would you clap at the last supper when Jesus gives you his body and blood?

Who in their right mind would clap during the consecration, or the offertory, or the readings? An outburst of spontaneous appreciation is not appropriate at those times. Expressing appreciation for an occasion of joy is appropriate, at the appropriate times. A mature spirituality recognizes appropriateness.

What we have here is a view of the Mass based on a “feeling” and not on a reflection or belief. I could care less if the band/choir was amazing or sounded horrible. I do care that they are respectful and reverent and follow the rubrics. But beyond that I do not care.

I am sorry that you do not care about these things. People work hard at preparing music for Mass. It does not just happen. And music can move people toward God, make them think about God, feel God’s presence, recognize him, experience God more fully.
People have feelings. Is that a question in anyone’s mind, that people have feelings? Can they have beliefs also, while they have feelings, or does having feelings exclude believing? Expressing feelings is normal, and appropriate at the appropriate times, in the appropriate way.

Here is a great article about the silence in Church we are so awkward about and afraid of. It likens it to the silence after 9-11.

catholicnewsagency.com/resources/roman-missal-3rd-edition/bishops/silence-and-the-liturgy/
I notice at the good friday service there is no clapping, silence. And that silence is more deafening and moving than any clapping.

I think more silence is needed at the appropriate times, at Mass, and in people’s daily lives .

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

Who in their right mind would clap during the consecration, or the offertory, or the readings? An outburst of spontaneous appreciation is not appropriate at those times. Expressing appreciation for an occasion of joy is appropriate, at the appropriate times. A mature spirituality recognizes appropriateness.

I am sorry that you do not care about these things. People work hard at preparing music for Mass. It does not just happen. And music can move people toward God, make them think about God, feel God’s presence, recognize him, experience God more fully.
People have feelings. Is that a question in anyone’s mind, that people have feelings? Can they have beliefs also, while they have feelings, or does having feelings exclude believing? Expressing feelings is normal, and appropriate at the appropriate times, in the appropriate way.

I think more silence is needed at the appropriate times, at Mass, and in people’s daily lives .

The entirety of the Mass is a sacrifice.
newadvent.org/cathen/10006a.htm

Of these the most important is that the Church intends the Mass to be regarded as a “true and proper sacrifice”, and will not tolerate the idea that the sacrifice is identical with Holy Communion. That is the sense of a clause from the Council of Trent (Sess. XXII, can. 1): “If any one saith that in the Mass a true and proper sacrifice is not offered to God; or, that to be offered is nothing else but that Christ is given us to eat; let him be anathema” (Denzinger, “Enchir.”, 10th ed. 1908, n. 948).

Yes, I know about all the hard work going into the Mass. But really that hard work is for God, not for “us” it is inappropriate for us to assume that it was done for us. What was done for us at Mass, was the sacrifice of the Eucharist. Any other “service” we think we recieved SHOULD have been done for God, and God does not express gratitude by clapping but by the showering of Graces.
If someone is serving at Mass for me, they are doing so for the wrong reasons.

Yes, I know how important feelings are. But what about the many musicians I have talked to who would rather not receive the adoration of clapping. Many of them are embarrassed by it and some even know it is not appropriate. Perhaps their feelings should be accounted for as well.

I am glad we agree on silence in appropriate places in the Mass. And I am glad we agree on the value and need for silence. We should follow the Church in this matter and the Church has indicated that after Mass there should be silence. So that would be an appropriate time! Therefore we can see that clapping IN Mass is not appropriate because of what the Mass is, a sacrifice. Even if Father encourages it innocently. And we can see that clapping AFTER Mass is in violation of the Church’s wishes on silence after Mass. Which as you put it,

I think more silence is needed at the appropriate times, at Mass, and in people’s daily lives

And the Church has guided us as to when those appropriate times are. One of them is directly after Mass. Which would include the 5 seconds of applause.

 

[CarolNoel]

This is starting to happen at our church too. Think it is not appropriate.

 

[cshoremom]

Happens at the end of our LifeTeen Mass just to applaud and encourage our musicians and singers.
The first time it happened, it was years ago at the time my DD sang with 3 other girls and various guitar players and a drummer. I know I am a little biased, but the music was particularly good . We had a mentally challenged older lady parishioner who always attended that Mass and would always dance and clap to all the music… But at the end of Mass one day, she just clapped and cheered… everyone smiled and clapped along, and from then on, it’s been done…( I just thought it only happened at our church, at that particular Mass :lol

I have not heard applause at the end of any of our other Masses.

 

[clem456]

The entirety of the Mass is a sacrifice.
newadvent.org/cathen/10006a.htm

Yes, I know about all the hard work going into the Mass. But really that hard work is for God, not for “us” it is inappropriate for us to assume that it was done for us. What was done for us at Mass, was the sacrifice of the Eucharist. Any other “service” we think we recieved SHOULD have been done for God, and God does not express gratitude by clapping but by the showering of Graces.
If someone is serving at Mass for me, they are doing so for the wrong reasons.

Yes, I know how important feelings are. But what about the many musicians I have talked to who would rather not receive the adoration of clapping. Many of them are embarrassed by it and some even know it is not appropriate. Perhaps their feelings should be accounted for as well.

I am glad we agree on silence in appropriate places in the Mass. And I am glad we agree on the value and need for silence. We should follow the Church in this matter and the Church has indicated that after Mass there should be silence. So that would be an appropriate time! Therefore we can see that clapping IN Mass is not appropriate because of what the Mass is, a sacrifice. Even if Father encourages it innocently. And we can see that clapping AFTER Mass is in violation of the Church’s wishes on silence after Mass. Which as you put it,

And the Church has guided us as to when those appropriate times are. One of them is directly after Mass. Which would include the 5 seconds of applause.

I don’t know how you can know the motivations of musicians and servers.
I’ve never seen musicians milk a congregation of applause. Our choir has never milked it or expected it, or basked in it, or needed it (I’m not sure which motivation you are assigning to people). I suppose they are guilty of inspiring people???
Appropriate expression and timing is the key thing.

What you said was that applause after the recessional hymn disrespects the sacrifice of the mass. And that expression of appreciation somehow reflects diminished belief. There’s no basis to make that conclusion.

Originally Posted by Hoosier Daddy
Perhaps something to think about during lent. Would you clap, at the foot of the Cross? With blood and tears streaming down the wood. With the pure innocent sacrifice being offered for you by an innocent man and Our Lord? Would you clap at the last supper when Jesus gives you his body and blood?

Quote:
What we have here is a view of the Mass based on a “feeling” and not on a reflection or belief. I could care less if the band/choir was amazing or sounded horrible. I do care that they are respectful and reverent and follow the rubrics. But beyond that I do not care.

 

[Elizium23]

It is also commonplace in my parish for the assembly to applaud after a speech or appeal is made by an announcer during the “brief announcements” period after Communion. I recently had a few opportunities to make speeches, so I analyzed the reactions to them. One time, I was promoting the Knights of Columbus, and I gave a brief version of my history with the Order. This was a speech I tailored for the Hispanic community, and I delivered it twice in Spanish, and I got hearty applause both times, yet nobody came to our table to apply to be a member. I thought this rather odd. If they liked my speech then why not at least find out more about what we do for the community, and inquire about joining us?

Another time I was leading a Bible study on the Psalms. I was going a little crazy with stress at the time, and I was beset by strange ideas. So I decided to compose a little testimonial in the style of Hebrew psalmody. Then I thought it might be interesting to present only this psalm to the assembly, without the usual informative spiel. I had the aim of “buzz marketing” to get people thinking and talking about it. So at the 7am Mass I waited for my introduction, approached the ambo, recited my psalm, and retired to the narthex. Unfortunately the presiding priest did not think this was cool, and so he gave the obligatory informative spiel and said I’d be answering questions in the narthex. The significant thing was that there was no applause when I finished my psalm. I think that people were unsettled by the nature of what I said, not being a normal announcement but more like a Scriptural reading, or they were confused and waiting for the other shoe to drop. Whatever the reason, I was extremely smug and satisfied that I had intentionally prevented the assembly from applauding in that one instance. After consultation with the priest I did not pull the stunt again, my subsequent presentations included both the psalm and the usual information about what, when, and where.

But yes, if people will applaud for announcements (DURING MASS), and they will applaud as the recessional hymn finishes, why won’t they applaud the lector, or the consecration? The Per Ipsum and Great Amen are so full of drama that I am very emotional when they finish. To my mature spirituality this seems the most appropriate time to applaud. Christ has been made present and dwells among us. The priest has just effected a miracle. Our sacrifice is complete and awaits our participation. The only barrier to applause at this point is social pressure. We are too afraid of what people will think of us and it is not the “usually done thing”. Applause after Mass now is so ordinary and even expected that we don’t care what the curmudgeons will think anymore. Many people now applaud just from peer pressure around them.

If you separated everyone out into an opaque soundproof box where they would watch Mass, would anyone applaud? We don’t applaud TV shows at home, but sometimes we applaud films at the end, when there is nobody to thank. Why do we applaud films? It is usually when two criteria are met: the house is nearly full, and the group watching has something in common. For example, Catholic films like For Greater Glory and Gimme Shelter. These were applauded because the theatre was full of Catholics who were emotionally moved by the events. Yet nobody heard our applause except other viewers. Why did we bother? Hoosier Daddy has excellent points. Perhaps Nativity parish in Timonium, MD can be the pioneer for this. Have everyone take a bow at the end. Milk that applause for all it’s worth. Present an encore, perhaps we can have Benediction if everyone is really so worked up that they demand it.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

I don’t know how you can know the motivations of musicians and servers.
I’ve never seen musicians milk a congregation of applause. Our choir has never milked it or expected it, or basked in it, or needed it (I’m not sure which motivation you are assigning to people). I suppose they are guilty of inspiring people???
Appropriate expression and timing is the key thing.

What you said was that applause after the recessional hymn disrespects the sacrifice of the mass. And that expression of appreciation somehow reflects diminished belief. There’s no basis to make that conclusion.

Exactly. We cannot know the motivations. But you were making the argument that they "deserved applause and that it would be rude to not applaud because of the people who serve at Mass feelings. But you are correct we cannot know.

Or can we.

Like I said before, when someone claps for a service offered, for an entertainment, it is quite befitting to have the people being acknowledged, acknowledge back with a bow. When at a symphony, if there is clapping at inappropriate times, the musicians continue with the performance, they do not acknowledge the clapping. When the clap is called for by social protocol at the END of a song or performance, they bow, they accept the acclamations and return the sentiment. If they don’t return the sentiment we can assume that the musicians do not want the clapping.

So, if the musicians want the clapping (which really has NO BEARING on if we should be doing it at all) then I would expect a bow back, or an encore.

Surely you would agree that the musicians, should take the audiences clapping and return it so as not to hurt the audiences feelings correct? I would be quite offended if I were at a concert and they did not acknowledge a standing ovation.

Do you wish to address the other points?

 

[clem456]

But yes, if people will applaud for announcements (DURING MASS), and they will applaud as the recessional hymn finishes, why won’t they applaud the lector, or the consecration?

Because it’s not appropriate maybe?
We are making this way too difficult.

The thing I object to is the idea that applause after a recessional hymn reflects poorly on a person’s beliefs or respect for the Mass, or that the choir is guilty of instigating or promoting it. These motivations are pretty tough to assign, unless a person is blessed with the gift of soul-whispering.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

Happens at the end of our LifeTeen Mass just to applaud and encourage our musicians and singers.
The first time it happened, it was years ago at the time my DD sang with 3 other girls and various guitar players and a drummer. I know I am a little biased, but the music was particularly good . We had a mentally challenged older lady parishioner who always attended that Mass and would always dance and clap to all the music… But at the end of Mass one day, she just clapped and cheered… everyone smiled and clapped along, and from then on, it’s been done…( I just thought it only happened at our church, at that particular Mass :lol

I have not heard applause at the end of any of our other Masses.

Now that is an interesting observation. If I think about my old parish there were some Masses that had clapping (life teen) and some that did not. 8AM.

Hmmmm
Why would there be clapping in a Life Teen Mass but not in others? Is the LT band superior to the other musicians? Is your congregation that attends other Masses being rude in not applauding the service of the other musicians? Is it because in some Masses there is a sense of the sacred and in others that is not so evident?

Oh! If only there were some sort of direction from the Church, some sort of guidance on what sound is appropriate and what the Mass is supposed to be like.

You would think in 2000 years we would have had some sort of direction!

 

[clem456]

Exactly. We cannot know the motivations. But you were making the argument that they "deserved applause and that it would be rude to not applaud because of the people who serve at Mass feelings.

No I was not.
Please, where did I say the above? Quote it please.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

Because it’s not appropriate maybe?
We are making this way too difficult.

The thing I object to is the idea that applause after a recessional hymn reflects poorly on a person’s beliefs or respect for the Mass, or that the choir is guilty of instigating or promoting it. These motivations are pretty tough to assign, unless a person is blessed with the gift of soul-whispering.

Then could we agree on something. There should not be clapping after Mass for the music. But those that do, either do not know, or are well intentioned if not a little misguided. I can definitely agree that all intentions with the clapping are good. I can also agree that a person believes the tenets of the faith and respects Mass.

However, it is evident that while the respect may be there, while the faith may be strong, the education is not.

I may indeed respect the concert I go to, I may respect and understand the symphony. But I may be mistaken in my appropriate response to the performance.

Ice Figure Skating is the only olympic event that allows flowers, bears, objects to be thrown onto the arena after performances. They do not allow this at speedskating events, halfpipe events and the like. Does that mean that if someone in a fit of adulation throws a rose on the ice for a speedskater that they are disrespecting the sport and athlete. No, just that they do not understand the rules.

 

[Elizium23]

Because it’s not appropriate maybe?
We are making this way too difficult.

It seems appropriate to my mature spirituality. Perhaps you, and those around me just aren’t mature enough yet.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

No I was not.
Please, where did I say the above? Quote it please.

Perhaps I misunderstood you

I am sorry that you do not care about these things. People work hard at preparing music for Mass. It does not just happen. And music can move people toward God, make them think about God, feel God’s presence, recognize him, experience God more fully.
People have feelings. Is that a question in anyone’s mind, that people have feelings? Can they have beliefs also, while they have feelings, or does having feelings exclude believing? Expressing feelings is normal, and appropriate at the appropriate times, in the appropriate way.

I took that to mean that if I do not clap or think others should not that I do not care about others “feelings”

I can see that you may not have been talking about that but about how I do not care if the singer is good or not. Which I don’t. Some parishes just do not have the talent others do. I do not require it to be “good” or standing O worthy. Nor should anyone. It is not the focus.

Do the musicians sing for God and serve Him in the Mass. Or do they sing for my entertainment?