MERGED: Applauding after Mass Poll / Why?

[Hoosier_Daddy]

Are we really worrying about a 5 second affirmation being so disruptive? Really?

Yes really. But let me turn this around for you. If the Church has requested silence in respect, are YOU really arguing that 5 seconds of “you” time should interrupt the Chruch’s wishes?

Is the 5 seconds so important to you that you are willing to turn against the Church for that brief period of time?

I know that sometimes it is hard to obey the Church. I know that obedience comes hard to some of us when we do not fully agree with or understand what we are being asked to obey. I know that we all think we could “do” the Mass better. I fall into that trap all the time.

But like you pointed out. It is only 5 seconds!

I think it is not too much to ask for people to have control of where they put their hands and what they do with them for 5 seconds.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

TO HOOSIER DADDY AND ELIZIUM 23 ~

:tiphat:

Your posts have helped me more than you can know.

Thank you. I cannot take credit though.
From Card. Ratzinger’s book Sacred Liturgy

We are realizing more and more clearly that silence is part of the liturgy. We respond, by singing and praying, to the God who addresses us, but the greater mystery, surpassing all words, summons us to silence. It must, of course, be a silence with content, not just the absence of speech and action. We should expect the liturgy to give us a positive stillness that will restore us. Such stillness will not be just a pause, in which a thousand thoughts and desires assault us, but a time of recollection, giving us an inward peace, allowing us to draw breath and rediscover the one thing necessary, which we have forgotten. That is why silence cannot be simply “made”, organized as if it were one activity among many. It is no accident that on all sides people are seeking techniques of meditation, a spirituality for emptying the mind. One of man’s deepest needs is making its presence felt, a need that is manifestly not being met in our present form of the liturgy. For silence to be fruitful, as we have already said, it must not be just a pause in the action of the liturgy. No, it must be an integral part of the liturgical event.

The more I read this man the more I LOVE it. He packs so much information into a smooth style of writing. IF the Second Coming allows for it, in 500 years, people will be reading this man as a Doctor of the Church. I wonder what he is writing now?

 

[clem456]

Staying on topic is really a blessing. The topic is

Why do people applaud after Mass?

No one here debates the value of silence in the Mass. Why is that topic interjected? It’s a red herring.
No one debates that musicians are not performers at mass, or seeking applause. Why is that interjected? That’s a red herring.
No one debates that applause would never ever be appropriate during the consecration or the offertory or the readings, or at any time -during- the Mass for that matter. That’s a red herring.

The problem is, from introducing red herrings it is a short leap to dumping the plate of herrings in people’s laps…assigning motivations, spiritual deficits, lack of belief, that we have absolutely no way of knowing. Other Catholics don’t deserve to be smeared. That’s not a productive thing to do. It’s not fair or charitable to Catholics who may be expressing simple appreciation or joy, and might be ignorant of papal writings or mass rubrics. This kind of approach is what drives people running from the Catholic Church.

 

[rondirect]

Yes really. But let me turn this around for you. If the Church has requested silence in respect, are YOU really arguing that 5 seconds of “you” time should interrupt the Chruch’s wishes?

Is the 5 seconds so important to you that you are willing to turn against the Church for that brief period of time?

I know that sometimes it is hard to obey the Church. I know that obedience comes hard to some of us when we do not fully agree with or understand what we are being asked to obey. I know that we all think we could “do” the Mass better. I fall into that trap all the time.

But like you pointed out. It is only 5 seconds!

I think it is not too much to ask for people to have control of where they put their hands and what they do with them for 5 seconds.

If the church asked that this action be stopped, I would definitely obey. And, no, that 5 seconds of affirmation is NOT that important to me, but it might be for others. I also feel that is not my job to place judgment or ask anyone to stop an action that is really outside the mass. People are people with different feelings. If the Spirit moves them to applaud, let it be. That 5 seconds is not going to be so disruptive to the person who just stayed and sang the closing song, then wants to sit and pray (private adoration chapel aside), IMHO. The action has already been completed.

My friend, the bottom line is this: everyone is different. Some will hate the applause and call it what you like, while others feel the Spirit of joy and will find no problem in it. As I have eluded to, I can take it or leave it and will obey the church if this ever becomes an issue with the higher powers and we are told to stop, for which I doubt will ever happen. I hate to be trite, but it fits here: WWJD? I doubt it that God is angry with those who applaud as much as being angry with those who do not. He is glad that they attended mass overall. I really think that you find this action more uncomfortable than disruptive and I understand that. Really!

At the very least, we should be glad that a number of people have actually stayed to the end of the closing song with applause, while more than half have already left, or even more disruptive and disturbing, left right after receiving communion. We should be concentrating more on correcting that issue IMO.

I agree with Clem’s last post. I agree that we have left this thread and added “red herrings.” It is so true, it’s things like this that make people leave the church. The large mega churches are making a real impact!

As for me, I spent enough time on this thread!

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

It’s not fair or charitable to Catholics who may be expressing simple appreciation or joy, and might be ignorant of papal writings or mass rubrics. This kind of approach is what drives people running from the Catholic Church.

Two points here.

1. It gets tiresome that anytime anyone wants to remain Catholic, or adhere to Catholic liturgy or even beliefs nowadays we are told that to do so will “drive people away from the Church” This has been abused to such an extreme that we have numerous threads on homosexuality where if one wants to defend the Church we HAVE TO include a disclaimer to the order of “hate the sinner love the sin” IN EVERY POST ABOUT SODOMY! or we are hateful bigots who drive people away from the church in droves.

I seem to recall people being offended at some words of Jesus and leaving. Jesus did not explain that the accidents of the bread and wine would be there, or that he understands their problems and runs after them, phrasing things differently. Nope, they walked, He turned to the faithful.

ok that was WAY off topic but it really is getting out of control for those of us who just want to adhere to the faith.

1. You point out, and I agree, that they may be ignorant of the rubrics or Papal writings. Ok. But how do we educate them without alienating them? As you can see from this thread alone even when you educate and show what the correct way is people still defend the other way. Honestly I am asking because in your above post, for the most part you were very diplomatic. Acknowledging the inappropriateness of it while defending those who may not know and be well meaning. So in giving respect not only to what the Mass is and what the Church asks, how do we bring this into practice?

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

If the church asked that this action be stopped, I would definitely obey. And, no, that 5 seconds of affirmation is NOT that important to me, but it might be for others. I also feel that is not my job to place judgment or ask anyone to stop an action that is really outside the mass. People are people with different feelings. If the Spirit moves them to applaud, let it be. That 5 seconds is not going to be so disruptive to the person who just stayed and sang the closing song, then wants to sit and pray (private adoration chapel aside), IMHO. The action has already been completed.

My friend, the bottom line is this: everyone is different. Some will hate the applause and call it what you like, while others feel the Spirit of joy and will find no problem in it. As I have eluded to, I can take it or leave it and will obey the church if this ever becomes an issue with the higher powers and we are told to stop, for which I doubt will ever happen. I hate to be trite, but it fits here: WWJD? I doubt it that God is angry with those who applaud as much as being angry with those who do not. He is glad that they attended mass overall. I really think that you find this action more uncomfortable than disruptive and I understand that. Really!

At the very least, we should be glad that a number of people have actually stayed to the end of the closing song with applause, while more than half have already left, or even more disruptive and disturbing, left right after receiving communion. We should be concentrating more on correcting that issue IMO.

I agree with Clem’s last post. I agree that we have left this thread and added “red herrings.” It is so true, it’s things like this that make people leave the church. The large mega churches are making a real impact!

As for me, I spent enough time on this thread!

I still have issues with your ideas here.
The Mass is not nor ever has been a popular event. Warm bodies in the Pews is not the goal. We should be happy that people are there is not good enough. Yes, they are there, but then what? Do they know what the Mass is? Are they aware of what just happened on the altar? Do they know what the church asks of them?

In your case, you do. You have read this thread. You have read the Pope, you have seen that the Church does indeed ask that the action be stopped. You have also seen a very small view of what it must be like to be a priest or bishop. The diplomatic tightrope you would have to walk every day. This is why I asked Clem to elaborate on how to get the point across as you put it. WWJD. THe fact of the matter is I don’t know what Jesus would do. I wish I did. I wish, if after the crucifixion when he was removed from the cross (pieta) I knew what the apostles did. What Mary did. As the crowd dispersed and people went on with their day after seeing the greatest sacrifice for them the world has ever known. Perhaps they broke out in applause. Perhaps they patted Simon on the back and told him “Good job, thank you for your service” Perhaps Barabas was dancing the the streets, perhaps the Jews were as well at the split in the temple. I don’t know. What I do know is how I would react and how odd I would think it if there was applauding.
I try to balance this with the call for charity, and for diplomacy. The only thing I come up with is “Forgive them, they know not what they do” And I try to adhere to that. But aren’t we called as Christians, as children of God to spread His message, to obey His commands, and to Follow the Church? Aren’t we called to help our brother grow in holiness, and aren’t we called to let our brother do the same for us? Without pride, without anger, it is hard.

I am glad to know that you would be obedient. I am glad you do not care for being right enough to know that if the Church asked something that did not quite fit with your version of liturgy that you would happily go along. Now, can’t you see that She has asked that?

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=477404

You asked, what is the big deal?

The answer is that it should not matter to you if it is a big deal or not.

You seemed to give the impression that 5 seconds was no big deal.

But the directives do not call for that.

You were asked why you clap.

I have not heard anything other than “for the band”

To your point about protestant mega churches. you are right they are growing. That does not matter. The liturgy is not supposed to entertain and draw people in like a circus. One thing you will notice about mega churches and protestants in general. They keep fragmenting and splitting. Because they have no true authority on liturgy or teachings. So the mob, moves on if they find something they do not like at one church they move on to the next. It could be a split about female clergy, homosexual marriage, or even music at worship.

At what point did we reach a culture where the sacrifice and breaking of your creators body, where the killing of ones God for your eternal soul has become entertainment and is not as captivating as a splendid renditioning of “Awesome God”

I am sorry to say this but when in Italy, I heard finer music than in any of your parishes. And after Mass. Silence. No great applause for the “opera” quality performance by the choir. Just me, and my fellow Catholics, praying, knowing we had to leave but not wanting to kneeling, with tears down our faces because of the gratitude we felt for the sacrifice given, and for the beauty we were treated to.

When we are all in heaven, singing praises, to God for eternity. I will not pat you on the back and offer adulation for your part in the infinite Choir. But know, that I appreciate your voice with mine praising the Creator of our voices.

 

[clem456]

Two points here.

ok that was WAY off topic

Agreed.

 

[clem456]

I still have issues with your ideas here.
The Mass is not nor ever has been a popular event. Warm bodies in the Pews is not the goal. We should be happy that people are there is not good enough. Yes, they are there, but then what? Do they know what the Mass is? Are they aware of what just happened on the altar? Do they know what the church asks of them?

In your case, you do. You have read this thread. You have read the Pope, you have seen that the Church does indeed ask that the action be stopped. You have also seen a very small view of what it must be like to be a priest or bishop. The diplomatic tightrope you would have to walk every day. This is why I asked Clem to elaborate on how to get the point across as you put it. WWJD. THe fact of the matter is I don’t know what Jesus would do. I wish I did. I wish, if after the crucifixion when he was removed from the cross (pieta) I knew what the apostles did. What Mary did. As the crowd dispersed and people went on with their day after seeing the greatest sacrifice for them the world has ever known. Perhaps they broke out in applause. Perhaps they patted Simon on the back and told him “Good job, thank you for your service” Perhaps Barabas was dancing the the streets, perhaps the Jews were as well at the split in the temple. I don’t know. What I do know is how I would react and how odd I would think it if there was applauding.
I try to balance this with the call for charity, and for diplomacy. The only thing I come up with is “Forgive them, they know not what they do” And I try to adhere to that. But aren’t we called as Christians, as children of God to spread His message, to obey His commands, and to Follow the Church? Aren’t we called to help our brother grow in holiness, and aren’t we called to let our brother do the same for us? Without pride, without anger, it is hard.

I am glad to know that you would be obedient. I am glad you do not care for being right enough to know that if the Church asked something that did not quite fit with your version of liturgy that you would happily go along. Now, can’t you see that She has asked that?

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=477404

You asked, what is the big deal?

The answer is that it should not matter to you if it is a big deal or not.

You seemed to give the impression that 5 seconds was no big deal.

But the directives do not call for that.

You were asked why you clap.

I have not heard anything other than “for the band”

To your point about protestant mega churches. you are right they are growing. That does not matter. The liturgy is not supposed to entertain and draw people in like a circus. One thing you will notice about mega churches and protestants in general. They keep fragmenting and splitting. Because they have no true authority on liturgy or teachings. So the mob, moves on if they find something they do not like at one church they move on to the next. It could be a split about female clergy, homosexual marriage, or even music at worship.

**At what point did we reach a culture where the sacrifice and breaking of your creators body, where the killing of ones God for your eternal soul has become entertainment **and is not as captivating as a splendid renditioning of “Awesome God”

At what point did minor expressions of appreciation become apostasy, or whatever grand religious fault you are repeatedly casting on them?
Where is that in Church teaching, that they are all disrespectful apostates because they clap after Mass?

How do you expect to convert anyone to the Church’s positions on the important issues if your Catholicism is so fragile it can’t tolerate a minor foible after the Mass? Catholicism is not a fragile and thin-skinned religion. You are blowing this waaaay out of proportion and making it something it’s not.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

At what point did minor expressions of appreciation become apostasy, or whatever grand religious fault you are repeatedly casting on them?
Where is that in Church teaching, that they are all disrespectful apostates because they clap after Mass?

How do you expect to convert anyone to the Church’s positions on the important issues if your Catholicism is so fragile it can’t tolerate a minor foible after the Mass? Catholicism is not a fragile and thin-skinned religion. You are blowing this waaaay out of proportion and making it something it’s not.

It is not apostasy. You and I both realize that it is uncalled for. And I agree with you that it is well meaning and innocent. I was responding to the other posters idea that mega churches are making an impact. As if that is something that the Church should bend to. For a guy who does not like red herrings you sure do like chasing them.

I am not blowing this out of proportion. The OP said this was a very important topic to her.

I guess I don’t really know what you and I are discussing. We both agree clapping is not called for. We both agree there is really no way to stop it 100 percent. We both agree that the priests and Bishops are walking a tightrope and that not every little issue need be addressed.
I was wondering how you thought the issue could be dealt with. I guess you are at as much of a loss as I am.

Though you were diplomatic and logical before I cannot help but feel as if you are trying to engage again on an issue we probably agree on.

 

[rondirect]

I still have issues with your ideas here.
The Mass is not nor ever has been a popular event. Warm bodies in the Pews is not the goal. We should be happy that people are there is not good enough. Yes, they are there, but then what? Do they know what the Mass is? Are they aware of what just happened on the altar? Do they know what the church asks of them?

In your case, you do. You have read this thread. You have read the Pope, you have seen that the Church does indeed ask that the action be stopped. You have also seen a very small view of what it must be like to be a priest or bishop. The diplomatic tightrope you would have to walk every day. This is why I asked Clem to elaborate on how to get the point across as you put it. WWJD. THe fact of the matter is I don’t know what Jesus would do. I wish I did. I wish, if after the crucifixion when he was removed from the cross (pieta) I knew what the apostles did. What Mary did. As the crowd dispersed and people went on with their day after seeing the greatest sacrifice for them the world has ever known. Perhaps they broke out in applause. Perhaps they patted Simon on the back and told him “Good job, thank you for your service” Perhaps Barabas was dancing the the streets, perhaps the Jews were as well at the split in the temple. I don’t know. What I do know is how I would react and how odd I would think it if there was applauding.
I try to balance this with the call for charity, and for diplomacy. The only thing I come up with is “Forgive them, they know not what they do” And I try to adhere to that. But aren’t we called as Christians, as children of God to spread His message, to obey His commands, and to Follow the Church? Aren’t we called to help our brother grow in holiness, and aren’t we called to let our brother do the same for us? Without pride, without anger, it is hard.

I am glad to know that you would be obedient. I am glad you do not care for being right enough to know that if the Church asked something that did not quite fit with your version of liturgy that you would happily go along. Now, can’t you see that She has asked that?

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=477404

You asked, what is the big deal?

The answer is that it should not matter to you if it is a big deal or not.

You seemed to give the impression that 5 seconds was no big deal.

But the directives do not call for that.

You were asked why you clap.

I have not heard anything other than “for the band”

To your point about protestant mega churches. you are right they are growing. That does not matter. The liturgy is not supposed to entertain and draw people in like a circus. One thing you will notice about mega churches and protestants in general. They keep fragmenting and splitting. Because they have no true authority on liturgy or teachings. So the mob, moves on if they find something they do not like at one church they move on to the next. It could be a split about female clergy, homosexual marriage, or even music at worship.

At what point did we reach a culture where the sacrifice and breaking of your creators body, where the killing of ones God for your eternal soul has become entertainment and is not as captivating as a splendid renditioning of “Awesome God”

I am sorry to say this but when in Italy, I heard finer music than in any of your parishes. And after Mass. Silence. No great applause for the “opera” quality performance by the choir. Just me, and my fellow Catholics, praying, knowing we had to leave but not wanting to kneeling, with tears down our faces because of the gratitude we felt for the sacrifice given, and for the beauty we were treated to.

When we are all in heaven, singing praises, to God for eternity. I will not pat you on the back and offer adulation for your part in the infinite Choir. But know, that I appreciate your voice with mine praising the Creator of our voices.

My friend: we are way off topic. You know my position and I know yours. We can either go 'round and 'round disagreeing with each other about this topic, that is, clapping after the closing song after mass ONLY! Nothing more!

I must ask though: what do you mean, “The Mass is not nor ever has been a popular event.” Also, what directives are you talking about? I know of none.

I think we have to agree to disagree. You are right and so am I. We are two different people with different answers on this subject.

Gee…I also said I was done with this thread! LOL!

 

[Hacksaw_Jim]

Wow. Just…wow. I am dumbfounded at some of the responses I have read here. Shocked even. My wife and I attend mass regularly and there always seems to be a big cheery round of applause after mass. Especially after there has been a big rousing recessional hymn played! (Our parish uses the aforementioned and besmirched OCP hymnal, BTW. We LOVE it!) Many times the entire congregation will clap in time to the music (which I can only guess would make some of the contributors to this discussion absolutely insane) and the rhythmic clapping turns into a round of applause and the end of the hymn. I cannot speak for the other parishioners, but I can say that MY OWN applause comes from the exuberance and joy and love of the Lord that I feel at that moment. After the applause has subsided, we then will often turn to other nearby parishioners and introduce ourselves to those we do not yet know as we gather our belongings to leave. Or say “Hi” to those we have met before. It’s very joyous. I’m sort of shocked to find out that people find it disrespectful.
Additionally, I know that there is a predominately African-American parish not too far from us where there seems to be non-stop clapping and waving and “amen”-ing and cheering and applauding during and after the mass. I, for one, love their exuberance and outward signs of their love for Jesus. There’s not the tiniest bit of disrespect in any of their actions.
Peace.

 

[fred_conty]

What do you think?

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

Wow. Just…wow. I am dumbfounded at some of the responses I have read here. Shocked even. My wife and I attend mass regularly and there always seems to be a big cheery round of applause after mass. Especially after there has been a big rousing recessional hymn played! (Our parish uses the aforementioned and besmirched OCP hymnal, BTW. We LOVE it!) Many times the entire congregation will clap in time to the music (which I can only guess would make some of the contributors to this discussion absolutely insane) and the rhythmic clapping turns into a round of applause and the end of the hymn. I cannot speak for the other parishioners, but I can say that MY OWN applause comes from the exuberance and joy and love of the Lord that I feel at that moment. After the applause has subsided, we then will often turn to other nearby parishioners and introduce ourselves to those we do not yet know as we gather our belongings to leave. Or say “Hi” to those we have met before. It’s very joyous. I’m sort of shocked to find out that people find it disrespectful.
Additionally, I know that there is a predominately African-American parish not too far from us where there seems to be non-stop clapping and waving and “amen”-ing and cheering and applauding during and after the mass. I, for one, love their exuberance and outward signs of their love for Jesus. There’s not the tiniest bit of disrespect in any of their actions.
Peace.

Don’t be dumfounded! This is quite tame for a CAF liturgical discussion. I have found it to be somewhat respectful.

After reading the thread, what do you think about the Church and indeed Pope Emeritus Benedicts directions in this matter?
Do you think the Church is out of line? Do you find HIs Holiness’s comments to be wrong?

Here is another thread in which this was discussed.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=551174&highlight=applause

Here is what Pope Benedict said about applause IN the Mass.

(note: This thread is about applause after Mass. But you specifically mentioned it inside of the Mass.)

Dancing is not a form of expression for the Christian liturgy. In about the third century, there was an attempt in certain Gnostic-Docetic circles to introduce it into the liturgy. For these people, the Crucifixion was only an appearance. . . . Dancing could take the place of the liturgy of the Cross, because, after all, the Cross was only an appearance. The cultic dances of the different religions have different purposes - incantation, imitative magic, mystical ecstasy - none of which is compatible with the essential purpose of the liturgy as the “reasonable sacrifice”. It is totally absurd to try to make the liturgy “attractive” by introducing dancing pantomimes (wherever possible performed by professional dance troupes), which frequently (and rightly, from the professionals’ point of view) end with applause. Wherever applause breaks out in the liturgy because of some human achievement, it is a sure sign that the essence of liturgy has totally disappeared and been replaced by a kind of religious entertainment. Such attraction fades quickly - it cannot compete in the market of leisure pursuits, incorporating as it increasingly does various forms of religious titillation.

Pope Pious the X Said this

“It is not fitting to applaud the servant in the house of his Master.”

Now reflecting on what the Mass is as a sacrifice of God and reflecting on what is being discussed here and reading these Holy men and Pope’s of our Church do you wish to tell me why you think them wrong?

Or can you find popes and directives and rubrics calling for applause?

Most of what I see by people that are offended that others might be offended by applause after mass ties directly to some sort of pride and personal wish for the liturgy to be how they wish. But shouldn’t we want the liturgy to be how the Church wishes?

I leave you with this thought from a great theologian.

I stand here waiting for you to bang the gong
To crash the critic saying, “Is it right or is it wrong?”
If only fame had an I.V., baby could I bear
Being away from you, I found the vein, put it in here

I live for the applause, applause, applause
I live for the applause-plause
Live for the applause-plause
Live for the way that you cheer and scream for me
The applause, applause, applause

The famed, and always classy Lady Gaga.

Sorry she is the only one I could find who pontificate on the subject in the affirmative.

 

[YoungTradCath]

Generally I think it is very bad.

 

[SRM77]

It’s a worship, not a play. My two cents anyway

 

[Avila123]

I voted “no” because I didn’t know the context or when the OP considers mass has ended. I know the priest says the mass is ended but we then finish off with a hymn, so for me the end is after the last note has been sung. But I know that there are very differing views about the beginning and end of Mass.

 

[eamonnroma]

I am totally against it. applauding at the end of the Mass seems as if we are glad it is over…

 

[ServusHumilis]

It’s not fitting to applaud the servants in the master’s house. At my parish there’s usually Adoration of the Blessed Sacrament after Mass and people are wanting to pray in quiet; it’s tough to speak to anyone let alone clap. I don’t think anyone would appreciate it.

 

[cthomp1961]

The reason I feel it is ok is that it is not meant for the servants but all glory goes to GOD , to me the applause is for GOD and no one else…just my humble opinion

 

[GLam8833]

I am in the choir and I always thot that the
applause was for the singing!