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JS_Cortez
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Heh. Yeah, I know that those are the only two ingredients that should be present, but in what proportion, how hot an oven, bake times… If anyone knows those parts, too.
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runningdude
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If you would indulge me for a moment, I’m curious about this last statement here, as to why the absence of yeast would render the Eucharist invalid. Would its deliberate absence indicate a lack of intent perhaps? That’s my western perspective obivously, but what would the eastern perspective be?
I’ve just been curious about how Western and Eastern theology complement each other, and this little tidbit caught my eye. If you don’t mind
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DSJJ
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Can. 924 §1 The most holy Sacrifice of the Eucharist must be celebrated in bread, and in wine to which a small quantity of water is to be added.
§2 The bread must be wheaten only, and recently made, so that there is no danger of corruption.
Can. 926 In the eucharistic celebration, in accordance with the ancient tradition of the latin Church, the priest is to use unleavened bread wherever he celebrates Mass.
These canon laws still don’t make it invalid. It can’t become corrupt because at some time in the corruption it may become something other than bread and as soon as it does then consecration can’t occur. Someone else mentioned if milk and eggs are added. As long as when they are done it is still bread the consecration is valid. That’s the point though. At what point does it become a cake and not bread? All the things i mentioned above are illicit (breaking the rules) but not invalid (the consecration didn’t take place).
§2 The bread must be wheaten only, and recently made, so that there is no danger of corruption.
Can. 926 In the eucharistic celebration, in accordance with the ancient tradition of the latin Church, the priest is to use unleavened bread wherever he celebrates Mass.
These canon laws still don’t make it invalid. It can’t become corrupt because at some time in the corruption it may become something other than bread and as soon as it does then consecration can’t occur. Someone else mentioned if milk and eggs are added. As long as when they are done it is still bread the consecration is valid. That’s the point though. At what point does it become a cake and not bread? All the things i mentioned above are illicit (breaking the rules) but not invalid (the consecration didn’t take place).
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dfp42
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If the Eucharist is made out of some kind of improper matter can the priest still *consecrate *and it becomes The Lord Jesus? If the wine was welches grape juice, can it still be Jesus? In other words, the people of God don’t know about the matter and they think it’s Jesus, is it Jesus?
If the Eucharist is not really the Eucharist, do the people still receive Jesus, even though it’s not proper matter?
Can we also add more water to holy water and still have holy water?
If the Eucharist is not really the Eucharist, do the people still receive Jesus, even though it’s not proper matter?
Can we also add more water to holy water and still have holy water?
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DSJJ
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Grape juice can’t become the blood of our Lord. It has to be wine or nothing happens. No if the people think they are receiving Jesus that dosen’t make it Jesus. It either is a valid consecration or it isn’t
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dfp42
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Ok, I understand the part about wine, but it’s not like a priest can walk into wines and spirits and use any wine, or go down to the Italian store and use any bread selected? I’m sure there were abuses of this in a parish somewhere in the world. The people really thought they were actually receiving the Lord and they weren’t the whole time.
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malphono
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Provided the flour is wheat, neither salt nor yeast would render it invalid (even in the Latin Church). It’s the additives that make a difference. If there are enough additives that it changes the character of the finished product in such a way that it isn’t even called “bread” in common parlance, it ceases to be valid matter (and that would be same both East and West).
From Redemptionis Sacramentum:
Let’s take pretzels, for example: they really aren’t much different than brioche in that they’re neither made as, nor eaten in lieu of, bread. If one wants to take the argument to the extreme, we can look at WheatThins: ultimately they’re crackers made from wheat, salt, leavening (plus who-without-a-degree-in-chemistry knows-what else), but would anyone consider same to be “bread”?
From Redemptionis Sacramentum:
Let’s take an example. The common English rendering of “Qu’ils mangent de la brioche” of Marie Antoinette fame, is “let them eat cake”. The circumstance, of course, was that she reputedly said this when she learned that the peasants had no bread ("…les paysans n’avaient pas de pain"). Although brioche is made from wheat flour, water, and yeast, it has enough other ingredients (butter, eggs, milk, sugar, etc) that it is not bread. Even Marie Antionette, the privileged youngest daughter of Maria Theresia, was, evidently, quite aware that brioche is not bread. If it’s not bread, it’s not “valid matter” (in Western terms). (NB: I took this an an example, but do not mean to imply that Marie Antionette was heartless or anything of the sort. From what I’ve seen, she was actually a good-hearted person but one whose life was so privileged from the start that she simply had no clue of the horrible circumstances in which the people (“peasants”) lived.)
Let’s take pretzels, for example: they really aren’t much different than brioche in that they’re neither made as, nor eaten in lieu of, bread. If one wants to take the argument to the extreme, we can look at WheatThins: ultimately they’re crackers made from wheat, salt, leavening (plus who-without-a-degree-in-chemistry knows-what else), but would anyone consider same to be “bread”?
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johnnykins
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Wheat flour and water (the only ingredients licit in the Latin Church) in a loaf form is certainly possible - hard as a rock and crumbly, but possible. Shape certainly has nothing to do with liceity.
I do believe it is unlikely that a loaf made with wheat flour and water only is what was used, but theoretically it is possible. I remain skeptical.
BTW, in my experience, too, actions at a monastery do not, ipso facto, indicate liceity. Indeed, I have often found the opposite.
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Friar_David_O.Carm
Guest
Absence of yeast in the Byzantine rite would not invalidate it, it would only make it illicit.If you would indulge me for a moment, I’m curious about this last statement here, as to why the absence of yeast would render the Eucharist invalid. Would its deliberate absence indicate a lack of intent perhaps? That’s my western perspective obivously, but what would the eastern perspective be?
I’ve just been curious about how Western and Eastern theology complement each other, and this little tidbit caught my eye. If you don’t mind
Sorry I wasn’t clear.
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ciero
Guest
Sounds more like cake then bread.
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The_Old_Medic
Guest
Once again, people are talking about something that they really do not understand. They do not understand the difference between what is approved (licit), and what can not happen at all.
ANY FORM OF BREAD MAY BE CONSECRATED. BUT, not all forms of bread are approved for use as the Eucharist. This does NOT make a bread that is not approved less consecrated, nor does it in any way eliminate the validity of receiving the Eucharist by anyone that consumes that illicit Eucharist.
It WOULD be sinful for a Priest to utilize bread that is not allowed by Canon Law, and for him to consecrate it into the body and blood of Christ. BUT, it would still be the body and blood of Christ, and it would be a legitimate form of Eucharist for the laity that received it.
I was a member of a Parish where they commonly used unleavened bread made by parishioners. It was made with whole wheat, honey, eggs, water, etc. No yeast or other leavening was utilized at all.
When this form of bread was used, it was 100% consumed at that Mass. None of it was allowed to be placed in the tabernacle, none of it was ever reserved. It was only later that we learned that the use of this bread was NOT allowed by canon law, but that in no way affected the fact that this was in fact the actual body and blood of Jesus that we consumed.
ANY FORM OF BREAD MAY BE CONSECRATED. BUT, not all forms of bread are approved for use as the Eucharist. This does NOT make a bread that is not approved less consecrated, nor does it in any way eliminate the validity of receiving the Eucharist by anyone that consumes that illicit Eucharist.
It WOULD be sinful for a Priest to utilize bread that is not allowed by Canon Law, and for him to consecrate it into the body and blood of Christ. BUT, it would still be the body and blood of Christ, and it would be a legitimate form of Eucharist for the laity that received it.
I was a member of a Parish where they commonly used unleavened bread made by parishioners. It was made with whole wheat, honey, eggs, water, etc. No yeast or other leavening was utilized at all.
When this form of bread was used, it was 100% consumed at that Mass. None of it was allowed to be placed in the tabernacle, none of it was ever reserved. It was only later that we learned that the use of this bread was NOT allowed by canon law, but that in no way affected the fact that this was in fact the actual body and blood of Jesus that we consumed.
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ciero
Guest
Actually he could…any unadulterated wine can be used…that means nothing added to the grapes when making the wine. And the bread has been discussed, the Eucharist would be valid but NOT licit, to use the Western terms.
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malphono
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Indeed. As long as it’s wheat bread and grape wine, both without additives, the matter (in Western terms) is valid.
This brings to mind a vignette that I posted a while back about an episode from 19th century France. It seems that a curé (parish priest) went a little bonkers. He was passing a bakery, went inside, and spoke the words of Institution with hands raised over the bread. The poor baker freaked and once the priest left, he shooed-out most of his customers and locked the doors. He then went, accompanied by a couple of witnesses, to the bishop and explained what had happened. The bishop promptly compensated the baker for his entire wares, and sent some priests on his staff to remove and consume the bread.
Of course the Sacrifice was not complete, since there was only bread in the bakery (as well as other reasons), but the point is that the bishop understood (a) that the priest, albeit a little off-the-deep-end, may have had the proper intention, (b) that the bread in the bakery was valid matter, and (c) that even if the intent was lacking, the incident could be harmful to the faithful. The same episode could well have happened in a wine shop.
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Digitonomy
Guest
What is considered “bread” may vary from one culture to another. I assume the key is what was considered “bread” in the time and place of Christ.
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malphono
Guest
Actually, what is considered wheat bread doesn’t seem to vary all that much from culture to culture. Nor does what is considered grape wine, for that matter. Different textures may have developed in various places, (due to the amount of kneading and (if leavened) the number (and time) of risings, etc), but the basic product is pretty much the same. That’s particularly true in the Middle East.
The ingredients in ancient times were wheat flour, water, maybe a little salt, and, if leavened, a little yeast (added or naturally occurring). Nothing different from what we know today. In short, wheat bread and grape wine haven’t really changed, except perhaps for the strains of wheat and the varieties of grapes used.
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ConstantineTG
Guest
I can’t really comment on the baking process, my baking skills is limited to ready-mix brownies.
But I’ve seen unlevened bread thats not absolutely flat like the common wafers we use. Its not risen like the common loaf you get at the bakery, but not absolutely flat as some people might think unleavened bread should be.
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Phemie
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Phemie
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ConstantineTG
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Share the photo again! I forgot which thread it was on
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Phemie
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I never posted a photo but here is a blog where the author makes communion bread. Her recipe is the same as mine. I scored my loaves differently but the bread looked much the same.
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