MERGED: E-mail from a Muslim, Parts 1, 2, & 3

[Epistemes]

I’ve recently been engaged in a conversation/debate with a Muslim woman who lives in Egypt. This conversation has actually lasted for more than four months! Though, the e-mails have actually been rather sporadic, occurring once every couple of weeks (or longer). I’m starting to wonder if there’s any point to these e-mails anymore since, from my perspective, she’s not listening to what I have say, and, from her perspective, I’m not listening to reason. At any rate, I thought I should begin a series of posts - not too many I don’t hope - in order to present her accusations against…the Bible - and, of course, Jesus as Son of God - so that you all, my lovely apologists might offer me some fresh insight on how to handle her objections.

[Anything in [COLOR=“blue”]**bold blue **is where she is quoting me.]
Muslimah:

in response to what I say about the Bible you say that these are wrong claims and in your last e-mail u tried to provide evidence.

So let me examine them ( I’m sure non of us expects the other to simply believe something is true just coz the other said it’s so) and let me show u the objective criteria I have for stating the Bible is mostly corrupt:

**“You say that the Bible is corrupt, but you don’t even know what you mean by that. If the Old Testament (or Tanakh) were corrupted, then you’re immediately suggesting that generations of prophets from David to Jesus, who were raised on these scriptures as Jews, were taught corrupted Scripture.” **

No Sam…when I say the OT was corrupt I am not saying there was no true torah once…i’m saying that history proves very clearly that the OT can’t be what Moses wrote …it is so simply proven in any historical study(you have no single proof that the OT you have now is what Moses wrote)…

Apart from this I can give u one simple evidence from the OT itsel: how can Moses write about his own death if he was the transcriber of the five books of the OT?

"So Moses, the servant of the Lord, died there in the land of Moab, just as the Lord had said. 6 The Lord buried him* in a valley near Beth-peor in Moab, but to this day no one knows the exact place." ***

Can u really believe Moses wrote that???and at least he would have said “me” instead of “him”!!!..the Torah is full of passages where u have “God spoke to Moses” , if Moses (pbuh) was the writer of the OT we have now he would have said:" and God told (ME)"
Muslimah:

Another easy proof is the story about the ark…now God’s covenant to Moses (pbuh) as mentioned in the OT was kept in the (ark) as the jews know it…would u plz tell me how big could an ark be which can have the torah we have today when there was no printing and they were written on stone tablets and carried in an ark which wasn’t so big(about 114 x 68 x 68 cm ) ??!!

What I mean by was corrupt is that this ark was kept for some generations but then it was lost but ppl continued to transform the commandments and laws orally along with many other oral traditions(there is even the Oral Law in jewish belief until today)…and through this time u can imagine what such oral transmission does to an origin which was lost!

Sam what Torah are u talking about that has been taught to generations of Jews? “* The Old Testament is a collection of works of greatly differing length and many different genres. They were written in several languages over a period of more than nine hundred years,based on oral traditions. Many of these works were corrected and completed in accordance with events or special requirements, often at periods that were very distant from one another.” *

*"The Nineteenth century saw an even more minute search into the sources. In 1854, four sources were recognised. They were called the Yahvist version, the Elohist version, Deuteronomy, and the Sacerdotal version. It was even possible to date them:

1.   The Yahvist version was placed in the Ninth century B.C. (written in Judah)

2.   The Elohist version was probably a little more recent (written in Israel)

3.   Deuteronomy was from the Eighth century B.C. for some (E. Jacob) , and from the time of Josiah for others (Father de Vaux)

4.   The Sacerdotal version came from the period of exile or after the exile: Sixth century B.C. *

It can be seen that the arrangement of the text of the Pentateuch spans at least three centuries."

I, of course, feel I could answer her objections, but would like more insight into these issues.

 

[Epistemes]

…as continued from Part 1…]

I’ve recently been engaged in a conversation/debate with a Muslim woman who lives in Egypt. This conversation has actually lasted for more than four months! Though, the e-mails have actually been rather sporadic, occurring once every couple of weeks (or longer). I’m starting to wonder if there’s any point to these e-mails anymore since, from my perspective, she’s not listening to what I have say, and, from her perspective, I’m not listening to reason. At any rate, I thought I should begin a series of posts - not too many I don’t hope - in order to present her accusations against…the Bible - and, of course, Jesus as Son of God - so that you all, my lovely apologists might offer me some fresh insight on how to handle her objections.

[Anything in **bold blue is where she is quoting me.]
Muslimah:

There are always the believers and the disbelievers even while prophets live. There are always liars and ppl claiming things about the religion which is not true. Even at the time of Muhamamd(pbuh) there were Christians who were upon true Christianity and they didn’t say Jesus was God and they knew there will come a prophet they will have to follow.while others had the corrupt Bible which they used to lie to people.

So Sam…when it comes to believing in a book as a word of God would u take such an evidence?? Of course I know there was a torah and a bible but I can’t be sure which verses were truly from God. The trinity belief didn’t even exist in the Greek manuscripts befor the 16th century!

NIV
Late manuscripts of the Vulgate “testify in heaven: the Father, the Word and the Holy Spirit, and these three are one. And there are three that testify on earth: the” (not found in any Greek manuscript before the sixteenth century).

And the link below will show u how many versions differ concerning the authenticity of this verse:

tyndale.cam.ac.uk/scriptures/www.innvista.com/scriptures/compare/trinity.htm

Sam can you really have respect for a book which tells u about prophets who lay naked, lie, murder, or commit adultery ?

I was shocked when I was reading about Moses in wiki

*"Despite living to 120, he did not enter the land of Israel, or the promised land, or the promised land, because he hit the rock twice instead of speaking to the rock. According to scripture, God never instructed Moses to smite the rock. And in verse 10 Moses made it seem as though it was his ability to bring forth the water out of the rock and not the miraculous working power of God. And in verse 12, the disobedience of Moses led to his denial into the promised land. (see Numbers 20:7-8, 9-10, and 11–12). *

I couldn’t believe a prophet such as Moses(pbuh) could disobey God in such a manner…how can a prophet who calls ppl to worship God do that?

 

[Epistemes]

…again, as continued from Parts 1 and 2…]

[Anything in [COLOR=“blue”]**bold blue **is where she’s quoting me.

If the New Testament is as untrustworthy and corrupted as you, and all Muslims, maintain, and if Paul is also as untrustworthy, then why did even the Prophet himself quote freely from the epistles of Paul?

No Sam he wasn’t copying…u misunderstand this point…simply Muhammad(pbuh) was sent from the same God who sent Jesus(pbuh) and again and again I know some verses are not corrupt coz I have what proves this from the authentic source which is Qur’an…I hope u now get this point about what I mean by “corrupt”

As for paul …again I’m sorry I can’t believe that God has a son called Jesus just coz Paul lied about a vision and some followed him…how many liars did ppl follow throughout history?? Suddenly God decided to save ppl from the original sin? How about the ppl b4 christianty? And God is just, He won’t blame a person for a sin he/she didn’t do, and after all Adam was forgiven!!

In your third test u said " Sources from early Christian writers outside the New Testament such as Ecclesiastical History III.39 by Eusebius who preserves the writings of Papias (A.D. 130); Against Heresies by Irenaeus (A.D. 180) and writings by Clement of Rome (C. A.D. 170); Polycarp (A.D. 70-156); Tatian (C. A.D. 170) corroborated that many people believe Jesus performed healings and was the Messiah, that he was crucified, and that despite that shameful death, his followers, who believed he was still alive worshipped him as God."

Just coz so many ppl worship the cow means they are right? Just coz for many centuries there were ppl who worshipped the sun means the sun was a true God???

Thanks.

 

[Teflon93]

I believe what she’s arguing is that those aspects of Christianity and Judaism which appear in Muslim writings have the authority of Muhammad, who was a direct channel for the will of Allah, whereas we Christians and Jews have corrupted scriptures, so defined because they disagree with the Koran.

Isn’t much of Islam predicated on the notion that God was tired of humanity getting it wrong and thus used Muhammad as a holy scribe?

If that is the case, I think she’s simply being consistent in her views, no matter how wrongheaded you or I might think they are.

 

[Epistemes]

If that is the case, I think she’s simply being consistent in her views, no matter how wrongheaded you or I might think they are.

…

Regardless, the point of apologetics nor evangelism isn’t to say, “Please continue along your same old path.”

To paraphrase John Paul the Great, ecumenism shouldn’t come at the expense of belittling our own faith.

 

[I_Leatherman]

Just because people believed in Muhammad does’nt mean he was right?!:ehh:

Is the story about Abraham sacrificing the ram accurate, I wonder.