MERGED: Eucharist/Corporal

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Lee1949

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If either the bread or wine is not on the Corporal, does it not become the Body or Blood of Jesus?
 
If the bread or wine is not on the Corporal, does it not become the Body or Blood of Jesus?
 
Although the custom is to place the elements to be consecrated onto the corporal, what really matters is the intention of the priest. In Masses where a very large number of people will receive Communion, for example, all the ciboria might not fit on the corporal, but the priest would intend to consecrate all the hosts, regardless of the placement.
 
As Betsy said, it really depends on the intention of the priest. If he were to not have a corporal (war, emergency, etc…), he could still consecrate. If he didn’t have enough corporals to hold a large number of ciboria needed (for many communicants), it is still consecrated. Ideally, if you needed, say, 10 ciboria, you’d get two or three more corporals, but it’s not absolutely necessary for consecration.

Also, if you had, say, a tupperware container of unconsecrated hosts on the altar, (to store the hosts to be consecrated) and somehow it was touching the corporal, but the priest did not intend to consecrate them, they wouldn’t be consecrated.

Usually though, for most priests, most of the time, the “intention to consecrate” is the vessels on the corporal.
 
What is important are the words of institution of the Mass.

That is as long as “This is my Body, This is my Blood” is said then the species are consecrated.

One of course must use the long form for the consecration of the Blood, but it seems to be the opinion nowadays that the only absolutely necessary part is the “This is my Blood”.

God Bless

Br. Paul
 
I know this is digressing a little but the nature of this post made me think of this question. I watched the Papal Mass that opened the synod for the Middle East. Obviously, there were a number of sacred vessels on the altar but I also noticed a large number of ciboria on a table behind the altar. Presumably there isn’t sufficient room on the mensa of the altar to hold all the ciboria needed for the size of a congregation in St Peter’s Basilica. Would these ciboria have held bread that was consecrated during the Mass or would they have held the Lord’s Sacred Body having been consecrated at another time?
 
Matthew_Holford said:
I know this is digressing a little but the nature of this post made me think of this question. I watched the Papal Mass that opened the synod for the Middle East. Obviously, there were a number of sacred vessels on the altar but I also noticed a large number of ciboria on a table behind the altar. Presumably there isn’t sufficient room on the mensa of the altar to hold all the ciboria needed for the size of a congregation in St Peter’s Basilica. Would these ciboria have held bread that was consecrated during the Mass or would they have held the Lord’s Sacred Body having been consecrated at another time?
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It could be any of those. If the celebrant intends to consecrate them then they will be consecrated. The question is how far reaching is the celebrant’s intent to confect valid sacraments? Within the sanctuary? Within the area where Mass is celebrated? Anywhere in the world?
 
ConstantineTG said:
It could be any of those. If the celebrant intends to consecrate them then they will be consecrated. The question is how far reaching is the celebrant’s intent to confect valid sacraments? Within the sanctuary? Within the area where Mass is celebrated? Anywhere in the world?
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I think you might have misinterpreted my question. I’m not questioning the intent of the celebrant (in this case it was the Pope). I just wondered whether these ciboria would have contained bread that would have been consecrated at the Mass or if they would already contained consecrated Body of Christ. I posed the question really because the OP asked if the sacred vessels had to be on the corporal, obviously these ciboria weren’t on the corporal.
 
Matthew_Holford said:
I think you might have misinterpreted my question. I’m not questioning the intent of the celebrant (in this case it was the Pope). I just wondered whether these ciboria would have contained bread that would have been consecrated at the Mass or if they would already contained consecrated Body of Christ. I posed the question really because the OP asked if the sacred vessels had to be on the corporal, obviously these ciboria weren’t on the corporal.
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My apologies.
 
ConstantineTG said:
My apologies.
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Mine too. I wasn’t looking for an apology nor was I criticising and I apologise if I gave that impression. I thought from your original response that you’d misunderstood my question. What I was trying to do was re-phrase it to see if it could be answered.

Looks like we’ve simply got our wires crossed.🙂
 
Matthew_Holford said:
I know this is digressing a little but the nature of this post made me think of this question. I watched the Papal Mass that opened the synod for the Middle East. Obviously, there were a number of sacred vessels on the altar but I also noticed a large number of ciboria on a table behind the altar. Presumably there isn’t sufficient room on the mensa of the altar to hold all the ciboria needed for the size of a congregation in St Peter’s Basilica. Would these ciboria have held bread that was consecrated during the Mass or would they have held the Lord’s Sacred Body having been consecrated at another time?
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I would assume that they are probably being consecrated at that mass, because if they held already consecrated hosts, they probably wouldn’t be just sitting there. They’d be in the tabernacle, or at least somewhere else besides just sitting there.
 
TheMc said:
I would assume that they are probably being consecrated at that mass, because if they held already consecrated hosts, they probably wouldn’t be just sitting there. They’d be in the tabernacle, or at least somewhere else besides just sitting there.
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I was thinking the same thing. Although Matthew may have a point. I do not know how many chalices are there as I did not see it, but assuming there are many and if they are indeed consecrated, they wouldn’t fit into most or any tabernacle. But I also doubt they’d be leaving consecrated hosts lying around exposed, so I would assume that they are being consecrated right there and then.

But I have to get back to my follow up question, if there are any physical limits to the priest’s intent.
 
I don’t think it was a case of leaving them lying around. They were covered in what looked like cling film. The Hosts in these ciboria were distributed during the Communion.

I was wondering if the Pope consecrated these at the Mass or if consecrated Hosts were already in them. I suppose being logical they were consecrated at that Mass. They would probably have had to acquire consecrated Hosts from a lot of tabernacles to fill those ciboria.
 
Matthew_Holford said:
I don’t think it was a case of leaving them lying around. They were covered in what looked like cling film. The Hosts in these ciboria were distributed during the Communion.

I was wondering if the Pope consecrated these at the Mass or if consecrated Hosts were already in them. I suppose being logical they were consecrated at that Mass. They would probably have had to acquire consecrated Hosts from a lot of tabernacles to fill those ciboria.
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What I meant by lying around is that the Hosts cannot be left outside of the tabernacle outside of Mass. So surely they wouldn’t have been consecrated at another Mass if there is too many to fit in a tabernacle.
 
ConstantineTG said:
What I meant by lying around is that the Hosts cannot be left outside of the tabernacle outside of Mass. So surely they wouldn’t have been consecrated at another Mass if there is too many to fit in a tabernacle.
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I just wondered if someone knew. This must be the norm at Papal Masses in St Peter’s, Basilica or Square, due to the large number of congregants. I guess we won’t know unless someone in the know comes along and enlightens us.🤷
 
It depends how many large celebrations they will have in a short span of time and how much Hosts they can reserve. But if there are any Hosts that remain after Communion, the large number of priests should be able to consume the rest of the Hosts that are not to be reserved.
 
Matthew_Holford said:
I know this is digressing a little but the nature of this post made me think of this question. I watched the Papal Mass that opened the synod for the Middle East. Obviously, there were a number of sacred vessels on the altar but I also noticed a large number of ciboria on a table behind the altar. Presumably there isn’t sufficient room on the mensa of the altar to hold all the ciboria needed for the size of a congregation in St Peter’s Basilica. Would these ciboria have held bread that was consecrated during the Mass or would they have held the Lord’s Sacred Body having been consecrated at another time?
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I knew this random bit of information would come in handy some day. (I found this out talking to people who have been involved in the planning of papal liturgies.) When the Holy Father celebrates public Masses (as opposed to those that he might celebrate at the Papal Chapel), his intention is to consecrate anything that is being held by an ordained minister. (Ok to prevent the smart aleck that will come along later and be nit-picky, any vessels containing those elements that meet the requirements set out by Holy Mother Church for the consecration to Holy Communion.:)) I would assume (because I have seen it happen at other Papal Liturgies) that at the Preparation of the Altar and the Presentation of the Gifts, these were handed out the priests and deacons that would be distributing Communion later on. I cannot guarantee this was the case but it is most probable. It may be the case that the Holy Father’s intention was to concecrate anything on that table, however i would think this unlikly since it would take a long while to get these ciboria into the hands of the ministers (and maybe even very distracting).
 
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