MERGED: Evangelization and Music/Bishop Sample Music in the Mass

  • Thread starter Thread starter opus101
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
O

opus101

Guest
This thread is about different types of music and their specific venues in regard to evangelization.

The particular lens through which the topic will be explored is the 3rd part of Bishop Olmsted’s article “Singing the Mass”. Here, he describes inculturation, its relationship to the sacred and “profane” (his terminology), and how the distinct difference between sacred and religious music determines the venue for each one in our attempts to evangelize.

Before commenting, please read the 3 very short paragraphs found here under the heading “Music and Inculturation” (the 2nd heading in the article).
diocesephoenix.org/bishop-olmsted-columns.php?postmonth=201202&story=51278206

How does your parish put these ideas into practice?
 
In addition, does your parish engage in any activities (outside of Mass) in which music might be considered an evangelical tool?
 
My (soon to be former) parish seems to be attempting to do this within the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass by using profane religious music. Evidently, those in charge do not agree with the definitions of such things as put forth by the likes of Bishop Olmsted and others.
 
opus101 said:
My (soon to be former) parish seems to be attempting to do this within the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass by using profane religious music. Evidently, those in charge do not agree with the definitions of such things as put forth by the likes of Bishop Olmsted and others.
Click to expand...
Why must we continue to have so many separate threads regarding music. It is my opinion that these topics have been covered sufficiently and your viewpoints well expressed on several other threads started by yourself and others. While I am sure that intentions are good, it seems to me as though it is just looking for a heated debate.
 
CatholicGeek1 said:
Why must we continue to have so many separate threads regarding music. It is my opinion that these topics have been covered sufficiently and your viewpoints well expressed on several other threads started by yourself and others. While I am sure that intentions are good, it seems to me as though it is just looking for a heated debate.
Click to expand...
You are not required to read or subscribe to any thread that you are not interested in.
This thread takes up where the last related one (inculturation and sacred music) left off. This one is about how our parishes use music specifically for evangelization - a very interesting topic to me, since we are to participate in “The New Evangelization”.

I thought it would be good to use Bishop Olmsted’s article as a starting point, since he is one of the very few who has had much to say on the subject.

The other thread was about music in the Mass. This one is about music outside of the Mass. It’s about “duc in autem”, putting out into the deep, evangelization.
 
opus101 said:
My (soon to be former) parish seems to be attempting to do this within the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass by using profane religious music. Evidently, those in charge do not agree with the definitions of such things as put forth by the likes of Bishop Olmsted and others.
Click to expand...
I should have added that, outside of the Mass, my parish is not doing anything. I am aware of a few parishes in my diocese that hold song fests and praise and worship gatherings.
 
opus101 said:
You are not required to read or subscribe to any thread that you are not interested in.
This thread takes up where the last related one (inculturation and sacred music) left off. This one is about how our parishes use music specifically for evangelization - a very interesting topic to me, since we are to participate in “The New Evangelization”.

I thought it would be good to use Bishop Olmsted’s article as a starting point, since he is one of the very few who has had much to say on the subject.
Click to expand...
And this was what I thought you were trying to do when I read your first post, however, when further down you post:
My (soon to be former) parish seems to be attempting to do this within the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass by using profane religious music. Evidently, those in charge do not agree with the definitions of such things as put forth by the likes of Bishop Olmsted and others.
Click to expand...
That makes it appear that you are just trying to put forward the same arguments as your previous threads on the subject and you will likely get many of the same responses. If your intention was to discuss music in settings outside of mass, why bring this up?
 
Let’s not be rash and rush to judgment on the merits of OP101’s query. I can very well imagine that two of Bp. Olmsteads more renowned DMs, Adam Bartlett and Jaime Cortez, could quite easily and charitably answer the question that focuses upon the practical criteria of deciding both what constitutes a given piece as “sacred,” and another as “liturgical,” and then proceed to illustrate their experiences in both liturgical and non-liturgical realms regarding programming.
To answer the specific questions, we (being a four parish major merge) have any number of extra-liturgical conventional events throughout the year. The most obvious being and quite prior to its concurrence with this “holy year” evangelical retreats (in house) in English, Spanish and LaHu. As DM, it is not part of my duty to assist in those events unless I am solicited by the pastor or a person in charge. I know that music chosen for these gatherings will likely not be what I consider optimal choices, even in the realms of P&W, or the various Latino modums, but that’s okay because the musica popular or what Olmstead termed “profane” will not be brought over from the parish hall to the sanctuary and nave. And that works for RCIA, the Way, Family Catechesis, RE for elementary and secondary students, even when preparing for a ritual outcome at liturgies. And one could advance that when our music ministry offers a seasonal concert of a cantata, vespers or, as we did two years ago the Mozart Requiem, Vivaldi Gloria and Bach Magnificat within the church proper, we followed the prescriptions given by the church first, but they must be regarded as potentially “evangelisitic” even if in the church building but outside liturgy.
Trouble…trouble…trouble…will result if such principles are ignored by all those in charge of these respective enterprises. If “conjunto/ranchero” style is fostered in various Spanish language groups and ministry events, and musical leadership involved there don’t make a distinction that acknowledges that associating those styles is, in general, inappropriate as a musical vehicle or servant at Mass, then you’ll have dissonance, disagreement, etc. that will need to be resolved, or more likely, ignored and tolerated by the clerical staff. But there will be complaints, kvetching, recriminations and heads called for.
Cooler heads, such as Bartlett and Cortez, should prevail in such situations if a pastor consults divergent parties or himself issues a complaint or new mandate. YMMV.
 
CatholicGeek1 said:
And this was what I thought you were trying to do when I read your first post, however, when further down you post:

That makes it appear that you are just trying to put forward the same arguments as your previous threads on the subject and you will likely get many of the same responses. If your intention was to discuss music in settings outside of mass, why bring this up?
Click to expand...
If this really bothers you (and you are wrong in your interpreatation of my posts), then follow another thread or find something useful to do. It seems that you are trying to start an argument yourself.

I would like to know if there are any parishes out there that have musical activities outside of the Mass. If the bishops are wanting us to use profane religious music outside of the Mass for evangelization purposes, it would be nice to hear how this is done in various dioceses.
 
TCCOV said:
Let’s not be rash and rush to judgment on the merits of OP101’s query. I can very well imagine that two of Bp. Olmsteads more renowned DMs, Adam Bartlett and Jaime Cortez, could quite easily and charitably answer the question that focuses upon the practical criteria of deciding both what constitutes a given piece as “sacred,” and another as “liturgical,” and then proceed to illustrate their experiences in both liturgical and non-liturgical realms regarding programming.
To answer the specific questions, we (being a four parish major merge) have any number of extra-liturgical conventional events throughout the year. The most obvious being and quite prior to its concurrence with this “holy year” evangelical retreats (in house) in English, Spanish and LaHu. As DM, it is not part of my duty to assist in those events unless I am solicited by the pastor or a person in charge. I know that music chosen for these gatherings will likely not be what I consider optimal choices, even in the realms of P&W, or the various Latino modums, but that’s okay because the musica popular or what Olmstead termed “profane” will not be brought over from the parish hall to the sanctuary and nave. And that works for RCIA, the Way, Family Catechesis, RE for elementary and secondary students, even when preparing for a ritual outcome at liturgies. And one could advance that when our music ministry offers a seasonal concert of a cantata, vespers or, as we did two years ago the Mozart Requiem, Vivaldi Gloria and Bach Magnificat within the church proper, we followed the prescriptions given by the church first, but they must be regarded as potentially “evangelisitic” even if in the church building but outside liturgy.
Trouble…trouble…trouble…will result if such principles are ignored by all those in charge of these respective enterprises. If “conjunto/ranchero” style is fostered in various Spanish language groups and ministry events, and musical leadership involved there don’t make a distinction that acknowledges that associating those styles is, in general, inappropriate as a musical vehicle or servant at Mass, then you’ll have dissonance, disagreement, etc. that will need to be resolved, or more likely, ignored and tolerated by the clerical staff. But there will be complaints, kvetching, recriminations and heads called for.
Cooler heads, such as Bartlett and Cortez, should prevail in such situations if a pastor consults divergent parties or himself issues a complaint or new mandate. YMMV.
Click to expand...
Thank you so much for your response! This is the kind of thing I’m intereseted in learning about, and I’ll bet there are many more people just as interested. If we are going to follow guidelines, then instead of just defining sacred music, we need to be willing to find venues for the religious music that does not fit in within the Mass.
 
Well, I forgot about this one: our Cathedral hosted our symphony’s chorus for Handel’s “Messiah”. I think that counts as a sort of evangelism. It’s an example of secular religious music - an oratorio.
 
I started another thread on this topic, but the title wasn’t specific enough to describe it. How does your parish use music in non-liturgical settings to participate in the New Evangelization?

Many threads have attempted to describe/define sacred music as opposed to secular (or, as Bishop Olmsted called it, profane) religious music. Often, the conclusion has been drawn that certain types of music are better suited to venues outside of the Mass, but no one has really given any suggestions about how to do this.

Bishop Olmsted reflects on this issue in 3 very short paragraphs here, under the second heading “Music and Inculturation” (after the paragraph about evangelization)diocesephoenix.org/bishop-olmsted-columns.php?postmonth=201202&story=51278206
In the other thread (Music and Evangelization), there was a very good response that described what one parish is doing.

My diocesan Cathedral has hosted the local symphony’s chorus for Handel’s “Messiah”, and a few parishes have held song fests, and there is one praise/worship band that I know of that records CDs.

Please read the very short excerpt from Bishop Olmsted’s article before responding, as it
is our point of departure for this thread.
 
It is no longer my parish because I moved far, far away… but in my home parish, there is a gathering twice a month with a Praise and Worship band. The priest of the parish is the bass player in the band. My brother is the drummer. They also have two electric guitars, keyboards, the whole bit. They do a really great job of rocking out and having a fun time, but also bringing prayers, devotion to Mary, educational talks about varying subjects like the Eucharist or Reconciliation, food and companionship too. It’s great fun. I wouldn’t want that type of music in the Mass setting, but I am perfectly ok with it in this setting.
 
Ophelia23 said:
It is no longer my parish because I moved far, far away… but in my home parish, there is a gathering twice a month with a Praise and Worship band. The priest of the parish is the bass player in the band. My brother is the drummer. They also have two electric guitars, keyboards, the whole bit. They do a really great job of rocking out and having a fun time, but also bringing prayers, devotion to Mary, educational talks about varying subjects like the Eucharist or Reconciliation, food and companionship too. It’s great fun. I wouldn’t want that type of music in the Mass setting, but I am perfectly ok with it in this setting.
Click to expand...
Ophelia, that is great! I was hoping that there were parishes that successfully made this type of separation between the two. Sounds like it works really well!
 
I’m always amused when aging “folk” musicians claim that their music is relevant to today’'s youth. The garbage from OCP was not relevant to the youth of the 70’s and 80’s either, unless they were into commercial jingles and themes from romantic movies.
 
Cavaille, I appreciate your post, but , as you know, some others will take issue with it. Can we keep this thread on the topic of music and evangelization outside of the Mass? The new title was “How does your parish use music OUTSIDE of the Mass to evangelize?”. Then the newer thread (really the same one, but with a better description of the content), was merged with the old title.

:(🤷
 
I wondered if it would be finished before his departure for Portland. I was happy to see it when it came out, and sent it to several friends, who in turn sent it to some Music Directors…

Some of the situations he described certainly apply to my neck of the woods in California; in all my life I’ve only been at one Mass where the Introit and other Propers were said. They spoke the words, didn’t sing them, but even that was stunning to me, b/c they were actually being used!

The idea that particularly struck me from the pastoral was:
+++
“The liturgical books (the Missal, Graduale and Lectionary) envision that, as a
rule, we sing the Mass at Mass, rather than sing songs during Mass.”
+++

And obviously I don’t see what Father sees up there so the fact that there are melodies in the Roman Missal I found very interesting:
+++
For the Sung Mass, the celebrant should learn to sing, without instrumental
accompaniment, the celebrant’s chants for the orations and dialogues to the
melodies given in the Roman Missal, with the responses sung by the faithful.
+++

From Archbishop Sample’s Facebook (2-19-13):
+++
I am on retreat this week, prayerfully preparing for my new life and ministry as the next Archbishop of Portland. Please pray for me. I will be praying in a special way for my “soon to be” former flock in the Upper Peninsula of Michigan and for my new flock in Western Oregon. Please also pray for our beloved Holy Father Pope Benedict XVI and for the Holy Spirit to begin even now to stir in the hearts and minds of the Cardinal electors. Viva il Papa!
+++

amsjj 🙂

+++
Jesus, God and man,
imprisoned by love in Thy most holy Sacrament,
have mercy upon us.
  • Blessed John Henry Newman, December 22, 1851
Tú y yo sabemos por la fe que oculto en las especies sacramentales está Cristo,
ese Cristo con su Cuerpo, con su Sangre, con su Alma, y con su Divinidad,
prisonero de amor.
  • San Josemaría Escrivá, 1 junio 1974
… Our Lord Himself frequently said; and it is recorded as an Apostolic tradition from Him by St. Justin the Martyr. He says ‘Jesus often said, “They who are near Me are near a fire”’.
  • Abp. W. B. Ullathorne, August 1st 1886
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top