MERGED: Forced to sing/hold hands during the Our Father

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Newbie2 said:
I agree, but in this context, what are the consequences? The “victim” can’t really step or run away, shout or otherwise do something that one might do if grabbed on the street…like kicking them in the…ahem…shin.
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The consequences should be the same as for any unwanted physical contact. The parish priest should be part of the equation, and it should be emphatically understood among the parishioners that no unwanted physical contact is allowed. The offenders should be warned and prosecuted if it is necessary. In our parish there would be ramifications for certain. This unwanted contact is a very serious issue. This is not tolerated anywhere and we should not tolerate it at Mass either. No one has the right to do this,

We should be addressing this behavior because it should never be in the Mass.

Eddie Mac
 
Eddie_Mac said:
The consequences should be the same as for any unwanted physical contact. The parish priest should be part of the equation, and it should be emphatically understood among the parishioners that no unwanted physical contact is allowed. The offenders should be warned and prosecuted if it is necessary. In our parish there would be ramifications for certain. This unwanted contact is a very serious issue. This is not tolerated anywhere and we should not tolerate it at Mass either. No one has the right to do this,

We should be addressing this behavior because it should never be in the Mass.

Eddie Mac
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I agree that such unwanted grasping or grabbing should not be allowed, but there are simply no consequences.

Prosecution? Seriously? “Mr. District attorney, you are telling the court that the defendant forcebly wanted to hold hands during a Catholic mass where it is my understanding that hand holding is part of this mass at this particular parish?”

Again, I agree that such should not be forced or attempted to be forced, but as a practical matter the parish can do nothing to stop it other to tell the parishioners that if someone doesn’t want to hold hands during the Our Father, then please leave them alone, and I seriously doubt that that would ever happen.
 
yes, even Not counting my children doing so…

One mass, not long ago, a woman physically grabbed my folded hands.

I’ve seen several priests, and one bishop, preface the Lord’s prayer with, “Let us join hands and voices, as we pray together in the words our Savior gave us…”
 
joandarc2008 said:
I was once in a Church where the average age of the parishioner was around 80. There were no kneelers - you know what everyone did - kneeled on the floor. There is no excuse not to kneel before Christ.
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We have no kneelers and have WAY more chairs in the church than even what are allowed by code. They are squished in and there is no way to kneel; it is difficult even to walk between rows of chairs, even walking sideways.

People are in wheelchairs, too, and others have other physical disabilities that prevent kneeling.

So perhaps we can modify your statement to say that there are excuses not to kneel before Christ, but only an extreme few excuses? 🙂

Off topic, but maybe we can start a thread on being “forced” to kneel. 😃
 
Newbie2 said:
We have no kneelers and have WAY more chairs in the church than even what are allowed by code. They are squished in and there is no way to kneel; it is difficult even to walk between rows of chairs, even walking sideways.

People are in wheelchairs, too, and others have other physical disabilities that prevent kneeling.

So perhaps we can modify your statement to say that there are excuses not to kneel before Christ, but only an extreme few excuses? 🙂

Off topic, but maybe we can start a thread on being “forced” to kneel. 😃
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OK I see your point there- but when a parish packs itself that way it seems as if the pastoral council ought to be doing more to space the furniture and offer more services so that proper reverence can be shown for Christ. Now granted someone who physically has no control over their legs or arms has a reason - there are rare reasons not to kneel. There are no reasons that a whole parish should not be kneeling except for poor leadership and disobedience to Vatican directives.
 
joandarc2008 said:
OK I see your point there- but when a parish packs itself that way it seems as if the pastoral council ought to be doing more to space the furniture and offer more services so that proper reverence can be shown for Christ. Now granted someone who physically has no control over their legs or arms has a reason - there are rare reasons not to kneel. There are no reasons that a whole parish should not be kneeling except for poor leadership and disobedience to Vatican directives.
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Well…ahem…I’m on the parish council. 😉

There’s nothing that can be done in our situation; the area we have is simply too small to accommodate the number of chairs that we have. When our parish opened, we did not have the funds to buy chairs with kneelers. Now that we can afford them, we don’t have the room.

I take exception to the hint that we do not have kneelers because of poor leadership and that we are not showing “proper reverence” to our Lord.

We would have kneelers if we could accommodate them. We are not showing “disobedience to Vatican directives”.

So, yeah, there are reasons. It’s easy to be critical from a distance, isn’t it? :rolleyes:
 
ByzCath said:
Have you ever felt that you were forced to participate in the hand holding during the Our Father?

It seems that there are some users who deny that anyone can feel forced to do so.

I would add that having the priest celebrating Mass telling the congregation to hold hands at the Our Father is just one way to force this.
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The holding of hands in general just feels too Protestant more or less Pentecostal and I am not all comfortable with Pentecostalism
 
melchesidechpio said:
The holding of hands in general just feels too Protestant more or less Pentecostal and I am not all comfortable with Pentecostalism
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What about Charismatic Catholicism which actually sprung out of the Franciscan Order?
 
Newbie2 said:
Well…ahem…I’m on the parish council. 😉

There’s nothing that can be done in our situation; the area we have is simply too small to accommodate the number of chairs that we have. When our parish opened, we did not have the funds to buy chairs with kneelers. Now that we can afford them, we don’t have the room.

I take exception to the hint that we do not have kneelers because of poor leadership and that we are not showing “proper reverence” to our Lord.

We would have kneelers if we could accommodate them. We are not showing “disobedience to Vatican directives”.

So, yeah, there are reasons. It’s easy to be critical from a distance, isn’t it? :rolleyes:
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In a previous post you said;
We have no kneelers and have WAY more chairs in the church than even what are allowed by code. They are squished in and there is no way to kneel; it is difficult even to walk between rows of chairs, even walking sideways.
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Correct me if I’m wrong but perhaps the modern architecture in your parish doesn’t allow for kneelers. I’ve seen this as common place in many modern Catholic parishes.
 
centurionguard said:
In a previous post you said;

Correct me if I’m wrong but perhaps the modern architecture in your parish doesn’t allow for kneelers. I’ve seen this as common place in many modern Catholic parishes.
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However, even in a parish like this a few rows could be removed (granted fundraising efforts would be needed) pews/chairs respaced, and people who are healthy enough could kneel on the floor or cushions could be provided as they are for front rows in many parishes that have stone/tile floors. Also there are many types of chairs that can be purchased that have kneelers that fold down off the back so the row in back of them can kneel - chairs could be switched out as money is made available.Where there is a will to kneel for Christ there is a way.
 
Newbie2 said:
Well…ahem…I’m on the parish council. 😉

There’s nothing that can be done in our situation; the area we have is simply too small to accommodate the number of chairs that we have. When our parish opened, we did not have the funds to buy chairs with kneelers. Now that we can afford them, we don’t have the room.

I take exception to the hint that we do not have kneelers because of poor leadership and that we are not showing “proper reverence” to our Lord.

We would have kneelers if we could accommodate them. We are not showing “disobedience to Vatican directives”.

So, yeah, there are reasons. It’s easy to be critical from a distance, isn’t it? :rolleyes:
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Code:
enough Churches in Europe and even in Israel have no kneelers. Let alone the Byzantine churches…and talk about byzantine, during the holy mass, many people walk all over the place while the priest is praying. It SEEMS irrreverant, but in their culure it is not. The people even get up and light candles while the mass is going on. In our churches, this would be certainly frowned on. Customs and motivation have a great role to play.

Hugging and shaking hands CAN turn into a circus and CAN get quite noisy…it does not belong in Holy Mass…it is not about us and feeling good…
 
joandarc2008 said:
However, even in a parish like this a few rows could be removed (granted fundraising efforts would be needed) pews/chairs respaced, and people who are healthy enough could kneel on the floor or cushions could be provided as they are for front rows in many parishes that have stone/tile floors. Also there are many types of chairs that can be purchased that have kneelers that fold down off the back so the row in back of them can kneel - chairs could be switched out as money is made available.Where there is a will to kneel for Christ there is a way.
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Code:
Not all traditions kneel…byzntine vor example. And they are not irreverent…

God looks at the heart. If this parish can’t do it, they can’t do it. It is different if they do not WANT to kneel…
 
I am an adult. I do not allow myself to be forced to do anything I don’t wish to do, and I manage to do so without making a scene or drawing undo attention to the situation (in other words, I don’t scream “DON’T TOUCH ME!!”, although I suppose that would be an option). My kids say it is because I have that “mom” look and people back off in fear when I stare them down.
 
It has never happened to me but that has more to do with the fact that we don’t hold hands in my parish than anything else. But there is forced and there is forced. If I went to a parish where hand holding was done, my own desire to avoid hurting someone’s feelings would force me to hold hands even if I resented doing so.
 
centurionguard said:
Correct me if I’m wrong but perhaps the modern architecture in your parish doesn’t allow for kneelers. I’ve seen this as common place in many modern Catholic parishes.
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We could have fold-down kneelers with the chairs that we have, except we’d have to remove…I’m guessing…maybe 20% of the chairs in order to have kneelers, and those people would have to stand.

Sure, people could even go and kneel in the connected chapel if they wanted.

But in our parish, there is not enough room to fit kneelers and enough chairs to sit everyone. I’m not against kneelers, but we can’t just take out seats.
 
Newbie2 said:
We could have fold-down kneelers with the chairs that we have, except we’d have to remove…I’m guessing…maybe 20% of the chairs in order to have kneelers, and those people would have to stand.

Sure, people could even go and kneel in the connected chapel if they wanted.

But in our parish, there is not enough room to fit kneelers and enough chairs to sit everyone. I’m not against kneelers, but we can’t just take out seats.
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You could also offer another service and therefore people will be spread out over more services. Respect for Christ our Savior should come first.
 
I have never been forced to hold hands but I’ve gotten some odd looks from people if I didn’t automatically extend my hands at the Our Father. You might say I’ve felt I was being forced to do it. But I have very cold hands and once someone has attempted to hold hands with me I am sure they regret it.

Even if we don’t hold hands I still get grimaces :eek: from people when we shake hands afterwards.

I try to wear gloves when I remember.
 
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