MERGED: Gregorian chant and folk music

[PA650]

An insightful piece from Fr. John Zuhlsdorf:

Gregorian chant v. folk music. A parish in Toronto. Fr. Z rants. | Fr. Zs Blog – What Does The Prayer Really Say?
wdtprs.com/blog/2011/04/gregorian-chant-v-folk-music-a-parish-in-toronto-fr-z-rants/
April 24, 2011

Pope Benedict has proposed what I have called his “Marshall Plan” to renew Catholic identity. This must involve a reading of the Second Vatican Council in continuity with all the other Councils, not as a point of rupture. That goes for our liturgical worship, which is a sine qua non for Catholic Christian living.

Gregorian Chant was specified by the Council as the Church’s sacred liturgical music, first and foremost.

Some bits from a longish piece in Canada’s National Post with my emphases and comments:

In the search for the Voice of God, some believe Gregorian chants are preferable to folk music

Charles Lewis Apr 22, 2011

When Philip Fournier sings a line of Gregorian chant, it hangs like a puff of smoke in the air before it slowly dissipates above the empty pews below.

The sound, listening to it live from a distance of just several inches away in the choir loft at St. Vincent de Paul Parish in Toronto, is ancient, elemental. The sound originates in his abdomen — a line of text that flows out like a wave, sung in tones that are dark and rich. The words are in Latin. It is not a song so much as prayer that is sung. [Exactly.]

Mr. Fournier, with his ragged sweater and perpetual five o’clock shadow, is part of a small cadre of traditionalists for whom singing Gregorian chant is an attempt to restore what they see as the real music of the Catholic Church [They are in good company. The Second Vatican Council also thought that.] — sounds that go back to the time when King David sang psalms in the temple. [edited]

I cut a few large chunks out. Read the whole article there.

This, friends, is the key to the NEW EVANGELIZATION.

We must renew our liturgical worship. Liturgy is doctrine is daily life.

With regard to liturgical renewal, my Ordinary Form parish has had the great benefit of a music director and a capable choir to restore much of our liturgical patrimony during Holy Mass.

 

[The_Reginator]

From the National Post:

“Rather than work with our tradition, they took the easy way out,” said Mr. Fournier, who was raised in Maine and has been the director of music at St. Vincent de Paul for three years. “I have been repulsed by what I have experienced in the Church. Going to mass should be more profound and of a greater depth than what you experience day to day.”

He grew up in the 1980s, when folk masses and other forms of “music of the moment” were the norm. “At the time I knew it was weak and didn’t match the little I knew about the faith.”

This is from Father Z’s ‘rant’ about the article:

“Gregorian chant as we have it today is the closest thing we know to what Jesus would have sung and heard himself in the Temple in Jerusalem,” he said. [That could very well be true. In any event, Jesus would not have heard “Gather Us In”… except perhaps during the time He spent in the harrowing of Hell.]

Father Z struck a chord with me here because Gather Us In is used a few times a month for our -]Processional/-] “gathering” hymn/song.

 

[Dale_M]

Father Z struck a chord with me here because Gather Us In is used a few times a month for our -]Processional/-] “gathering” hymn/song.

Hm…

Of course, Jesus wouldn’t have heard Gregorian chant (despite Fr. Z’s wishes) since it wasn’t developed until hundreds of years after the crucifixion.

Really, I think this is a question of taste. Some people find that Gregorian chant is reverential and assists their spiritual journey. Others find a more modern form of music speaks to their soul. Neither form of music is wrong. It simply a question of taste.

 

[Maturinus]

Great article, but you lost me at the end with “this is the music we will hear in heaven”. Really? I would expect to hear something completely different in heaven. Like Bob Dylan sung in Aramaic accompanied by a theremin.

 

[The_Reginator]

Hm…

Of course, Jesus wouldn’t have heard Gregorian chant (despite Fr. Z’s wishes) since it wasn’t developed until hundreds of years after the crucifixion.

Really, I think this is a question of taste. Some people find that Gregorian chant is reverential and assists their spiritual journey. Others find a more modern form of music speaks to their soul. Neither form of music is wrong. It simply a question of taste.

It would seem to be a little more than just a matter of taste.
According to Vatican II:

CONSTITUTION
ON THE SACRED LITURGY
SACROSANCTUM CONCILIUM
SOLEMNLY PROMULGATED BY
HIS HOLINESS
POPE PAUL VI
ON DECEMBER 4, 1963

1. The Church acknowledges Gregorian chant as specially suited to the Roman liturgy: therefore, other things being equal, it should be given pride of place in liturgical services.

But other kinds of sacred music, especially polyphony, are by no means excluded from liturgical celebrations, so long as they accord with the spirit of the liturgical action, as laid down in Art. 30.

From personal experience I have found that Gregorian Chant is much more conducive to worship than other holy music. At Mass it really raises one’s spirit towards heaven.

 

[Monica4316]

Actually Pope Benedict feels similarly: ceciliaschola.org/notes/benedictonmusic.html

I agree with Fr Z… I really don`t like contemporary or folk church music.

Many people don`t know that VII documents actually call to keep Gregorian chant and some Latin.

I go to a parish where there is only Gregorian chant (it`s FSSP) and it really lifts the mind to God

 

[Peggy_in_Burien]

From the National Post:

This is from Father Z’s ‘rant’ about the article:

Father Z struck a chord with me here because Gather Us In is used a few times a month for our -]Processional/-] “gathering” hymn/song.

Gather Us In probably led me into venial sin by making me think of how much I hated the song, rather than having my thoughts on God. Sometimes I had to offer it up, because it causes me so much distress listening to it!

I thought I was alone in my feelings about this song, until one day I was listening to a theologian speak on Sacred Heart Radio. He was speaking about the differences between “horizontal” church songs and “vertical” church songs. The “horizontal” ones spoke about all of us folks and social behavior, while the “vertical” ones directed our praises to God, Jesus, and the Saints. To my surprise, he gave as an example of “horizontal” my all-time least favorite–Gather Us In!

Thank goodness, my parish, North American Martyrs, only uses Gregorian Chant!

 

[PA650]

From the National Post:

This is from Father Z’s ‘rant’ about the article:

Father Z struck a chord with me here because Gather Us In is used a few times a month for our -]Processional/-] “gathering” hymn/song.

Well, one week at my parish, a liberal Dominican Friar was the celebrant and started the procession to the sanctuary singing the hymn of ‘Sing a New Church.’ A little too dated for me, among other things.

 

[Dale_M]

It would seem to be a little more than just a matter of taste.
According to Vatican II:

116. The Church acknowledges Gregorian chant as specially suited to the Roman liturgy: therefore, other things being equal, it should be given pride of place in liturgical services.

But other kinds of sacred music, especially polyphony, are by no means excluded from liturgical celebrations, so long as they accord with the spirit of the liturgical action, as laid down in Art. 30.

As the document notes “pride of place” does not require exclusivity. However, I can think of many Masses I have attended in which Gregorian chant was missing, and that certainly was wrong. There is ample room for traditional forms of music, as well as more modern forms.

 

[E.E.N.S]

It would seem to be a little more than just a matter of taste.
According to Vatican II:

…and also according to every single document the Church has put forth on the matter.

 

[TrueLight]

Are there a lot of hymns sung at any traditional masses or are they few and far between?

Although I love Gregorian chant and other Latin music, In my limited experience, I don’t find that a lot of hymns are sung at mass, and I miss that a lot.

But then again, I really like congregational singing.

Wonder if there are any Anglican Use parishes near me?

 

[929dad]

What proof do any of us have the the Spirit stopped inspiring the composition of music with the codification of plainsong and chant under Pope St. Gregory the Great?

Among other things in life, I am a composer of sacred music. I completely reject the idea that what I’ve written hasn’t been inspired by the Holy Spirit. Without that prompting, I wouldn’t have written a single note successfully. I also reject the notion that because I’m living in 2011 instead of 1411 that what I have written automatically has no place at Mass.

Just because we don’t care for a particular piece of music doesn’t automatically make it unsuitable for worship. Gather Us In isn’t my favorite song, but I’m hard pressed to find something that would exclude it from use.

Evaluating musical styles will always be difficult because it is always based on taste. I’ve been fortunate enough to earn a bachelor and master’s degree in music, and I’ve learned a lot about the evaluation of music. Our emotional responses are just that, personal and emotional. Trying to apply an objective framework is possible, but filled with difficulty because we can’t eliminate our natural biases that easily.

 

[TheMc]

Well, one week at my parish, a liberal Dominican Friar was the celebrant and started the procession to the sanctuary singing the hymn of ‘Sing a New Church.’ A little too dated for me, among other things.

Not to mention heretical!

How can you “Sing a new Church into being”??? Isn’t there one church?

 

[MarkThompson]

Not to mention heretical!

How can you “Sing a new Church into being”??? Isn’t there one church?

I agree the song is awful, and I elect not to sing it on the rare occasions when it is programmed.

That said, you know, in the Bible we have phrases like, “So whoever is in Christ is a new creation: the old things have passed away; behold, new things have come.” Should we ask, “If someone baptized into Christ is a new person, then what happened to old person? He passed away?! Should we have a funeral? Where is his soul?? ”

“New” often simply means “renewed, restored; made young, made fresh; like new.” So I disagree with the entire tone of the song – since I like the old Church, and the song itself is incredibly banal – but if a person thought that in many ways the Church had grown away from the original teachings, lifestyle, and message of the Gospels, and that by restoring it we could bring it back to how it once was and should be again, then it would not be heretical at all to posit that we would be making the Church “in Christ a new creation,” in something like the fashion expressed by the passage I quoted. Would this view be completely misguided? Yes, of course.

I have expressed elsewhere my view of trying to read poetic or mystical texts like they were a passage out of the Summa. I do wish people would not level accusations of heresy on the basis of such readings.

 

[TheMc]

I agree the song is awful

Agreed!!

I have expressed elsewhere my view of trying to read poetic or mystical texts like they were a passage out of the Summa. I do wish people would not level accusations of heresy on the basis of such readings.

It was not me who leveled the accusation of heresy, but it was my bishop, I am only repeating the gist of what he said. I wish the homily was recorded, but I don’t believe it was. But he did say, in no uncertain terms, that it is wrong.

I understand what you are saying, it also bugs me when people yell “heresy!!” at the drop of a hat, but my bishop is very solid, and I trust that if he says it’s heresy, it’s heresy.

 

[PA650]

Not to mention heretical!

How can you “Sing a new Church into being”??? Isn’t there one church?

A slight digression. He certainly was an amiable priest, but some of his liturgical novelties were not appreciated by the clergy at my parish. In addition, he served as a friar in the Archdiocese of Los Angeles, which is not a bastion of orthodox liturgical practices.

 

[JoanREDirector]

Gregorian chant originated within the Latin language. When the language of liturgy is no longer Latin, just how are we supposed to fit Gregorian chant back in?

I’m old enough to have learned Latin in my mother’s womb - really - she was singing alto in the parish choir when she carried me. We lived in a parish with a strong Benedictine influence where Gregorian chant was reverently and expertly done. It was with tearful submission that that we stood by and endured the abrupt change to the vernacular.

Endure we did. We are still here singing faithfully. We can NEVER go back. Ugly and fearful as that time was, the Holy Spirit is still with the Church as Jesus promised. Good has come from what looked like an act of vandalism. For example, along with other good things, I love the three year cycle of readings and the increase in readings from the OT.

But in order for music to be the intergral part of the liturgy it was meant to be (and was in the Tridentine rite) it has to arise from the liturgy itself. So a Latin language Mass calls for Latin language music and a vernacular Mass calls for ???

Because I love Gregorian chant and have heard it done beautifully in its proper setting, I don’t like to hear it done badly or done at an inappropriate time. We’d just be singing woo woo woo to a beautiful melody and often badly at that. Besides, the choir should NEVER be singing anything at a Sunday Mass just for the entertainment of the congregation. Here’s a personal thing ( besides mispronouncing Latin … which makes me CRAZY), what an insult to St Thomas Aquinas and all the other named and unnamed composers to have their beautiful lyrics fall on uncomprehending ears.

Here’s what I see happening. The forty plus years since Vatican II are a very short time in the history of the Church. Our Latin musical heritage will lead us. Latin will come back as the universal language of the liturgy of the Latin rite, but the Liturgy of the Word parts of the Mass will remain in our everyday language.

We’ll see.

 

[The_Reginator]

Gregorian chant originated within the Latin language. When the language of liturgy is no longer Latin, just how are we supposed to fit Gregorian chant back in?
Could we not be taught some Latin for the Mass parts we already know in English … such as the Agnus Dei, the Sanctus, etc?

I’m old enough to have learned Latin in my mother’s womb - really - she was singing alto in the parish choir when she carried me. We lived in a parish with a strong Benedictine influence where Gregorian chant was reverently and expertly done. It was with tearful submission that that we stood by and endured the abrupt change to the vernacular.

Endure we did. That’s a good point that I’ve been pondering for some time now … We are still here singing faithfully. We can NEVER go back. Ugly and fearful as that time was, the Holy Spirit is still with the Church as Jesus promised. Good has come from what looked like an act of vandalism. For example, along with other good things, I love the three year cycle of readings and the increase in readings from the OT.

But in order for music to be the intergral part of the liturgy it was meant to be (and was in the Tridentine rite) it has to arise from the liturgy itself. So a Latin language Mass calls for Latin language music and a vernacular Mass calls for ???

Because I love Gregorian chant and have heard it done beautifully in its proper setting, I don’t like to hear it done badly or done at an inappropriate time. We’d just be singing woo woo woo to a beautiful melody and often badly at that. Besides, the choir should NEVER be singing anything at a Sunday Mass just for the entertainment of the congregation. Here’s a personal thing ( besides mispronouncing Latin … which makes me CRAZY), what an insult to St Thomas Aquinas and all the other named and unnamed composers to have their beautiful lyrics fall on uncomprehending ears.

Here’s what I see happening. The forty plus years since Vatican II are a very short time in the history of the Church. Our Latin musical heritage will lead us. Latin will come back as the universal language of the liturgy of the Latin rite, but the Liturgy of the Word parts of the Mass will remain in our everyday language.
I share the same hope.

We’ll see.

 

[JoanREDirector]

Hi, Reginator;

I think we’ve talked on Latin forums before. I always appreciate your comments.

I think you’re right. Our parish already knows chant settings in Latin for the Kyrie and Agnus Dei. We’ve done a Sanctus a few times too. I think that’s a natural place to start. I’ve proposed singing the Gloria and Creed in Latin when we make the change to the new English translation. That way we can make the transition easy when we switch to the new and more accurate translations in Advent.

Endure we did. I remember a conversation with my piano teacher at the University of Montana in the early 70’s. A faithful Catholic he had played the organ at his parish church for years but was pushed aside. He quit going to Mass but spent my lessons talking about it. “How can this ugliness be of the Holy Spirit?” he asked with anguish. All I could say was, “But who else has the Holy Eucharist?” Don’t know what happened to him.

 

[OraLabora]

Hm…

Really, I think this is a question of taste. Some people find that Gregorian chant is reverential and assists their spiritual journey. Others find a more modern form of music speaks to their soul. Neither form of music is wrong. It simply a question of taste.

No it isn’t just a matter of taste. Insipid hymns with insipid lyrics are no match for Gregorian chant. Quite apart from one’s like or dislike of Gregorian melodies, Gregorian chant is not about the melody it is about the Word as it capital “W”: the Word of God. Almost all of the chant repertoire, with the main exception being the hymns of the Divine Office are verses from holy scripture including the psalms, gospels, and other readings. The chant is merely to uplift the word.

It is therefore much more meaningful than a modern hymn with a composer’s words. The introit, gradual, alleluia verse, tracts, sequences, offertory and communion antiphon are all drawn from scripture.

The hymns of the Divine Office on the other hand, are not but are designed as a brief theology lesson.

There really is no substitute in the Western Church except maybe sacred polyphony that also draws its lyrics from scripture.

Any good Gregorian schola will analyze the meaning of the scripture they are singing in order to capture the appropriate mood. The one I sing in always does.