MERGED: Holy water and lent/Ashes in the font

[centurionguard]

You can find it here: ewtn.com/expert/answers/holy_water_fonts_and_lent.htm
CONGREGATION DE CULTU DIVINO ET DISCIPLINA SACRAMENTORUM

Prot. N. 569/00/L

Dear Father:

March 14, 2000

This Congregation for Divine Worship has received your letter sent by fax in which you ask whether it is in accord with liturgical law to remove the Holy Water from the fonts for the duration of the season of Lent.

This Dicastery is able to respond that the removing of Holy Water from the fonts during the season of Lent is not permitted, in particular, for two reasons:

1. The liturgical legislation in force does not foresee this innovation, which in addition to being *praeter legem *is **contrary to a balanced understanding of the season of Lent**, which though truly being a season of penance, is also a season rich in the **symbolism of water and baptism, constantly evoked in liturgical texts**.

2. The encouragement of the Church that the faithful avail themselves frequently of the [sic] of her sacraments and sacramentals is to be understood to apply also to the season of Lent. **The "fast" and "abstinence" which the faithful embrace in this season does not extend to abstaining from the sacraments or sacramentals of the Church**. The practice of the Church has been to empty the Holy Water fonts on the days of the Sacred Triduum in preparation of the blessing of the water at the Easter Vigil, and it corresponds to those days on which the Eucharist is not celebrated (i.e., Good Friday and Holy Saturday).

Hoping that this resolves the question and with every good wish and kind regard, I am,

Sincerely yours in Christ, [signed]

Mons. Mario Marini Undersecretary

Perhaps if there is something to good say about those of us parishioners who have to put up with the liturgical abuses of seeing NO Holy Water in the fonts this Lent.

It does however; give us a chance to suffer for our Faith.

Peace
Chris

 

[Hoxbar]

I called the apologist line at catholic.com. They sent me a response I then fowarded it the the priest. Here is what I sent the priest.

Fr. Rick,

While visiting your parish I noticed the Holy Water had been removed and replaced with ashes. *I had never seen this before and submitted a question to catholic.com concerning this issue. *This was there response. *Please note I’m not trying to be rude, I’m new to the church and thought I’d share this information.

Yours in Christ,

Dear Mr. Jones,
Thank you for calling Catholic Answers with your question.

The practice of emptying the holy water fonts during Lent is often done with the hope that that dry or sand filled fonts will foster the “desert experience” and the penitential nature of Lent. Regardless of motive, the holy water fonts should not be emptied until after the Mass of the Lord’s Supper on Holy Thursday. On March 14, 2000, the Vatican’s Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments released a statement in response to a question about the practice, saying:

The encouragement of the Church that the faithful avail themselves frequently . . . of her sacraments and sacramentals is to be understood to apply also to the season of Lent. The “fast” and “abstinence” that the faithful embrace in this season does not extend to abstaining from the sacraments or sacramentals of the Church. The practice of the Church has been to empty the holy water fonts on the days of the Sacred Triduum in preparation of the blessing of the water at the Easter Vigil, and it corresponds to those days on which the Eucharist is not celebrated (i.e., Good Friday and Holy Saturday).

*Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments official response here: adoremus.org/0403HolySeeResponds.html

I hope this helps. God bless you!

Peggy Frye

Staff Apologist, Apologetics Dept.

Catholic Answers
619-387-7200

www.catholic.com

 

[MJford]

My pastor took out the Holy Water for Lent. This is against the rules but I am afraid to say something to him, he is intimidating and used blue vestments during Advent. What do I do?

 

[Will_B]

Removing the Holy Water during Lent is an old tradition… Some churches still do this. Most, if not all churches will remove the holy water from the end of the final Maundy Thursday mass until after the Easter Vigil.

Blue vestments during Advent are appropriate… If it’s in the budget to buy blue vestments you will see clergy wearing blue during Advent and other Marian days… The entire month of May is another time when it is appropriate to wear blue vestments. The blue vestments that I have seen are mostly white with blue trim and Christian / Marian Icons.

 

[corsair]

It is my understanding that blue vestments are authorized for Spain only. White vestments with blue orphreys are acceptable as seen on EWTN on ocassion.

It appears that a discussion with the priest may be in order. Failing in that, a letter to the Bishop with documentation is the correct step.

 

[ChadS]

My pastor took out the Holy Water for Lent. This is against the rules but I am afraid to say something to him, he is intimidating and used blue vestments during Advent. What do I do?

You are right holy water is to remain in the founts throughout Lent. It is only to be removed from Maundy Thursday until the Easter Vigil on Saturday night. I don’t know what to tell you about the priest. I suppose you could approach him and ask why he removes the water and perhaps gently remind him that it shouldn’t be removed. If that does no good and you are so inclined you could write to the Bishop, but make sure you document what you said, his response and when it happened.

In the United States, blue is not a liturgical color. During Advent and Lent the vestments should be violet although I think the violet is allowed to have bluish undertones, but that’s sometimes taken to mean more blue than anything. For Marian feast days in the U.S. I believe the correct color to be worn is white, but I do know that in Spain and by extension some Latin American countries the priests by indult are allowed to use blue on Marian feast days.

I think you are correct in your concerns.

ChadS

 

[Barbkw]

Our Church fills the fonts with sand until the Easter Vigil Mass (signifying Jesus’ 40 days in the desert).

 

[Brendan]

Removing the Holy Water during Lent is an old tradition… Some churches still do this. Most, if not all churches will remove the holy water from the end of the final Maundy Thursday mass until after the Easter Vigil.

Holy water is required to be removed from Holy Thursday until just prior to the Easter Vigil.

Otherwise, it is to remain present for the faithful as a Sacramental.

This thread has the relevant documentation.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=7638041&postcount=5

Blue vestments during Advent are appropriate…

In the United States, the only approved liturgical colors are

White, Gold\Silver, Green, Red, Rose, Violet and Black.

1. As to the color of sacred vestments, the traditional usage is to be retained: namely,

White is used in the Offices and Masses during the Easter and Christmas seasons; also on celebrations of the Lord other than of his Passion, of the Blessed Virgin Mary, of the Holy Angels, and of Saints who were not Martyrs; on the Solemnities of All Saints (1 November) and of the Nativity of Saint John the Baptist (24 June); and on the Feasts of Saint John the Evangelist (27 December), of the Chair of Saint Peter (22 February), and of the Conversion of Saint Paul (25 January).

Red is used on Palm Sunday of the Lord’s Passion and on Good Friday, on Pentecost Sunday, on celebrations of the Lord’s Passion, on the feasts of the Apostles and Evangelists, and on celebrations of Martyr Saints.

Green is used in the Offices and Masses of Ordinary Time.

Violet or purple is used in Advent and of Lent. It may also be worn in Offices and Masses for the Dead (cf. below).

Besides violet, white or black vestments may be worn at funeral services and at other Offices and Masses for the Dead in the Dioceses of the United States of America.

Rose may be used, where it is the practice, on Gaudete Sunday (Third Sunday of Advent) and on Laetare Sunday (Fourth Sunday of Lent).

On more solemn days, sacred vestments may be used that are festive, that is, more precious, even if not of the color of the day.

Gold or silver colored vestments may be worn on more solemn occasions in the dioceses of the United States of America.

usccb.org/liturgy/current/chapter6.shtml

Blue is permitted only via indult in certain countries, mostly Hispanic ones. It is not permitted in the United States.

 

[Brendan]

Our Church fills the fonts with sand until the Easter Vigil Mass (signifying Jesus’ 40 days in the desert).

Considering that the Vatican stated that they are to be filled with Holy Water, doesn’t your parish find that to be a bit messy?

 

[hilde_the_dog]

Considering that the Vatican stated that they are to be filled with Holy Water, doesn’t your parish find that to be a bit messy?

Very Funny Brendan, but easier to build sand castles.

 

[MJford]

I forgot to mention he is a OFM Conventual. If he fails to listen to me should I go to the bishop or the priest’s superiors? By the way I would recommend you guys look up Fr.Z’s blog. He talks about this stuff every day. It is called What does the Prayer really say. the web site is wdtprs.com

 

[TheMc]

I forgot to mention he is a OFM Conventual. If he fails to listen to me should I go to the bishop or the priest’s superiors? By the way I would recommend you guys look up Fr.Z’s blog. He talks about this stuff every day. It is called What does the Prayer really say. the web site is wdtprs.com

I love Fr. Z’s blog!! It’s awesome!

Blue vestments are not to be worn, except Spain, and those with personal permission. I believe my bishop has permission, so he wears them on marian feasts instead of white. Purple should be worn during advent. That’s that.

Regarding both abuses: Go to the bishop. While the “authority ladder” may be a bit different for a religious priest, the bishop still has the say in his diocese, especially in the liturgy. He is a priest residing and ministering in the diocese, and he is committing abuses, the bishop has a right to know, and you have a duty to tell him (the bishop, or bishop’s office). He has the right to know, and will know who else to talk to, if need be.

Redemptionis Sacramentum

1. In an altogether particular manner, let everyone do all that is in their power to ensure … that all abuses be thoroughly corrected. This is a most serious duty incumbent upon each and every one, and all are bound to carry it out without any favouritism.
2. Any Catholic … has the right to lodge a complaint regarding a liturgical abuse to the diocesan Bishop or the competent Ordinary equivalent to him in law, or to the Apostolic See on account of the primacy of the Roman Pontiff. It is fitting, however, insofar as possible, that the report or complaint be submitted first to the diocesan Bishop. This is naturally to be done in truth and charity.

 

[ChadS]

Regarding both abuses: Go to the bishop. While the “authority ladder” may be a bit different for a religious priest, the bishop still has the say in his diocese, especially in the liturgy. He is a priest residing and ministering in the diocese, and he is committing abuses, the bishop has a right to know, and you have a duty to tell him (the bishop, or bishop’s office). He has the right to know, and will know who else to talk to, if need be.

I understand the impulse to run right to the bishop, but it could be fruitful to approach the local priest first. It’s quite possible, even if unlikely, that he isn’t aware that what he is doing is a liturgical abuse. If you go to the bishop first he would want to see that this was handled at the parish first and if there is no documentation it makes it easier to ignore or dismiss it since you just bypassed the local pastor first.

ChadS

 

[TheMc]

I understand the impulse to run right to the bishop, but it could be fruitful to approach the local priest first. It’s quite possible, even if unlikely, that he isn’t aware that what he is doing is a liturgical abuse. If you go to the bishop first he would want to see that this was handled at the parish first and if there is no documentation it makes it easier to ignore or dismiss it since you just bypassed the local pastor first.

ChadS

Good point. I was writing it with the assumption that the pastor dismissed any comments about it being an abuse. My bad, should have put that in there from the start.

So… Go to the pastor. And then, if that does nothing, then… see my above post.

Thanks Chad for the correction.

 

[ChadS]

Good point. I was writing it with the assumption that the pastor dismissed any comments about it being an abuse. My bad, should have put that in there from the start.

So… Go to the pastor. And then, if that does nothing, then… see my above post.

Thanks Chad for the correction.

Yes, exactly. The people in the pews have a right to a reverent mass done by the books, even if some don’t like the legitimate options some priests choose to use. They shouldn’t sit idlely by if some abuse is occurring regularly and frequently. You will obviously find priests that dismiss these concerns out of hand immediately, but I’d at least like to think that the majority will listen and hopefully do a little research before rendering an opinion.

At my old parish for the first two years as a Catholic holy water disappeared from the founts during Lent, then one year and since then the holy water has remained until Holy Thursday. I don’t know if he read something or maybe somebody said something to him, but whatever happened it changed his behavior. He also used to consecrate the wine in the majority of the wine in the pitcher and a little in his chalice and then distribute it into the other chalices afterwards. One Sunday he changed completely and after communion was over he said he’d just read JPII’s encyclical on the Eucharist (this was right after it had come out) and realized what he was doing was an abuse and increased chances of profanation if it was spilled, so he stopped and like the holy water hasn’t gone back.

So there are priests out there open to correction if done correctly. It just has to be done the right way. Priests should also realize that all of the information that used to be available only to priests in their books in the rectory library is out on the internet. The average Catholic can find the answer themselves much quicker and easier than asking the local priest and waiting for him to do a quick search. They have to realize it’s much easier to hold them liturgically accountable than before.

ChadS

 

[Catherine_k]

There was an interesting story about painted decorations used for the Church at the local Fransiscan Church… A professional artist originally painted some pannels in a lovely shade of blue for use in the church during Advent. The Bishop walked in, objected and wtihin 24 hours the panels were painted purple.

St. Francis demanded obedience. Members of the OFM are obedient not only to their order (and I gather there are different forms of the Franciscan “family”) but also to their Bishop as well as to Rome.