MERGED: Immaculate Conception Holy Day in the USA and Obligation

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No–it’s on Saturday in every parish. It is a set date–December 8th. Last year it fell on a weekday. Just find one at another parish that is at a different time and you should be fine. Some parishes will have one in the morning and some will have one in the evening. There are at least 10 churches within close enough proximity to me–I am always able to find an alternate time if the one at my church doesn’t work. Especially if you have a college with a Neumann center close by–ours tends to have weird (and several) Mass times on holy days.
 
And P.S.–You shouldn’t be afraid to tell them why you can’t go when it is a holy day of obligation! They are Catholic, so shame on them if they don’t understand! I say if they are judgmental about your faithfulness by attending Mass (more important than their party), you need to find a new group because that one does not sound like a good influence for you–and that is the point of those church groups, to build each other up in the faith.
 
In the US the obligation to attend Mass is abrogated if it falls on a Saturday or Monday, with two exceptions: December 8 and December 25. December 8 is our national patronal feast so the obligation remains even when it falls on a Saturday.

Check masstimes.org for your area. You can attend Mass on Friday evening or Saturday morning and it won’t interfere with your party. Ideally the other Catholics at the party are making the same kind of plans!
 
rissa87 said:
And P.S.–You shouldn’t be afraid to tell them why you can’t go when it is a holy day of obligation! They are Catholic, so shame on them if they don’t understand! I say if they are judgmental about your faithfulness by attending Mass (more important than their party), you need to find a new group because that one does not sound like a good influence for you–and that is the point of those church groups, to build each other up in the faith.
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Very well said. Amen 👍
 
denitaA said:
This may be a stupid question, but is the Feast of the Immaculate Conception of of those Holy Days of Obligation that was transferred to Sunday in the OF Mass? I know the Feast falls on Saturday this year, and I go to an FSSP Mass, but I have a conflict on that day involving a Christmas party with my Catholic women’s group, most of whom are “modern.” What do I do? There is a Mass on Saturday, but it’s the same time as the party, and if I go on Sunday, my FSSP parish won’t celebrate the feast of course. I’m more worried what the ladies will think if I tell them why I cant go to the party.🤷:doh2:🤷
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Maybe you could attend your local parish for the feast, they may have a vigil Mass on Friday, and your FSSP Mass for Sunday?
 
anp1215 said:
I think some are not reading carefully, or see the type of question and assume someone is trying to “get out of something” without reading the actual question.
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It seems to me that people were understanding the question correctly as, “Can I go to Mass on Saturday evening in order to fulfill the obligation to attend Mass for the Solemnity of the Immaculate Conception and then go to Mass to fulfill the obligation for the Second Sunday of Advent on Sunday proper?”

But lots of people have been quoting answers from external sources that seem designed for addressing the following : “I plan to attend Mass on Saturday evening to fulfill the obligation for the Solemnity of the Immaculate Conception. Have I already fulfilled the obligation for Sunday by doing so?”

The actual question (simplified) is, “Is Saturday evening available to fulfill either obligation so long as I don’t try to use it for both?”

(Presumably there are people for whom Saturday evening is the only reasonable time that they could fulfill the obligation for the Solemnity of the Immaculate Conception.)

There are lots of people who have reasonable interpretations about how liturgical law should be applied. But I agree with those who think the interpretations are not convincing and that some kind of judgement (with specific parameters as to whether this ruling applies to a specific diocese, a specific province, an entire nation, the Western Church, etc…) is called for.
 
SMHW said:
It seems to me that people were understanding the question correctly as, “Can I go to Mass on Saturday evening in order to fulfill the obligation to attend Mass for the Solemnity of the Immaculate Conception and then go to Mass to fulfill the obligation for the Second Sunday of Advent on Sunday proper?”

But lots of people have been quoting answers from external sources that seem designed for addressing the following : “I plan to attend Mass on Saturday evening to fulfill the obligation for the Solemnity of the Immaculate Conception. Have I already fulfilled the obligation for Sunday by doing so?”

The actual question (simplified) is, “Is Saturday evening available to fulfill either obligation so long as I don’t try to use it for both?”

(Presumably there are people for whom Saturday evening is the only reasonable time that they could fulfill the obligation for the Solemnity of the Immaculate Conception.)

There are lots of people who have reasonable interpretations about how liturgical law should be applied. But I agree with those who think the interpretations are not convincing and that some kind of judgement (with specific parameters as to whether this ruling applies to a specific diocese, a specific province, an entire nation, the Western Church, etc…) is called for.
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No, some people have advised to “just go both days,” which OP was already planning on doing.
 
anp1215 said:
No, some people have advised to “just go both days,” which OP was already planning on doing.
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My overall point (I was more or less trying to agree with you) was that the answers weren’t fitting the question.

Saying, “just go both days,” makes the assumption that we understand what we mean by “day”. In fact, what we are trying to resolve is the application of competing definitions of the word “day”.

“Just go both days,” sounds like an answer to a question about how many times one should go to Mass rather than to a question about how to go to Mass twice and make sure that one has gone two on different days rather than twice on the same day.
 
buc_fan33 said:
Right. I don’t dispute that, except that in this case, the feast day ends on the evening of December 8. As soon as EP I of the Second Sunday of Advent is prayed, the Solemnity of the Immaculte Conception is over. I wrote ~6:00 to avoid confusion about what constitutes “evening.” As you said, the Church has come to understand that as 4:00. So, I guess I should modify what I said and note that the faithful have from 4:00 p.m. on Friday, December 7 to 4:00 p.m. Saturday, December 8 to attend Mass for the Immaculate Conception.

I see this canon quoted often and I would suggest that we need to consider BOTH the letter of the law and the spirit of the law. The letter of the law says you have to attend A Mass on IC. The spirit of the law would indicate that it ought to actually be the Mass for the Immacualte Conception, with the prescribed readings and proper prayers. Otherwise, why have them in the Missal at all?

Take another example. What if Christmas is on a Monday? Christmas would trump a Sunday in Advent, so I misspoke in my earlier post. In years when Christmas falls on a Monday, the Fourth Sunday of Advent ends with the praying of EP I of Christmas. Given that Advent is a time of preparation for the season of Christmas, it doesn’t seem correct to me to suggest that one could fulfill his obligation for the 4th Sunday of Advent that evening because the Mass celebrated would be the Vigil of Christmas, not the Mass of the 4th Sunday in Advent.

Given that this is a relatively uncommon occurrence, my bet is that the CIC is not considering this situation in the above canon. Even if it is, we have to consider BOTH Canon Law and liturgical law. Liturgical law is pretty clear when a celebration begins and ends. In this case, liturgical law is clear that the Solemnity of the Immaculate Conception is over as of ~4:00 Saturday, December 8.
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Both the liturgical norms and the canon law say the day, Sunday or feast, is midnight to midnight! Also note from the commentary: “The precept may be satisfied at any Catholic Mass, i.e. not only when the texts are those of Sunday or holy day.”
 
rissa87 said:
No–it’s on Saturday in every parish. It is a set date–December 8th. Last year it fell on a weekday. Just find one at another parish that is at a different time and you should be fine. Some parishes will have one in the morning and some will have one in the evening. There are at least 10 churches within close enough proximity to me–I am always able to find an alternate time if the one at my church doesn’t work. Especially if you have a college with a Neumann center close by–ours tends to have weird (and several) Mass times on holy days.
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But if it falls on a Sunday, the feast is transferred to Monday in the OF. However, the obligation does not transfer in that one scenario, not even in the U.S.
 
Vico said:
Both the liturgical norms and the canon law say the day, Sunday or feast, is midnight to midnight! Also note from the commentary: “The precept may be satisfied at any Catholic Mass, i.e. not only when the texts are those of Sunday or holy day.”
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Actually, Canon Law DOESN’T say that. The commentary says that, and a commentary is just that…a commentary. What the Canon says is:
a person who assists at a Mass celebrated anywhere in a Catholic rite, either on the feast day itself or in the evening of the preceding day satisfies the obligation of participating in the Mass (emphasis mine).
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The problem is that this year, the feast day of the Immaculate Conception is shortened, because the Second Sunday of Advent takes precedence.

Listen, I’m not a canon lawyer, and I have no desire to be one.:). W may simply have to agree to disagree on our interpretation of this canon. I don’t for a moment doubt your sincerity, and I commend you for making the effort to attend Mass. Sadly, many Catholics will simply neglect the obligation to attend Mass on IC at all.

God bless you!
 
Vico said:
For Latin Catholics, the USCCB decided to transfer the 2013 Solemnity of the Immaculate Conception from Sunday to Monday December 9, 2013, but have abrogated it for that instance (so it is not obligatory). (Since it is transferred it is not obligatory.) Back in 2008, when it occurred on Monday, it remained a holy day of obligation.
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Actually, the USCCB did not decide to transfer the solemnity in 2013; the Catholic Church did, back in 1969. The transfer of a solemnity from a Sunday in Advent, Lent or Easter to the next available day is the universal norm in the Roman rite, according to the promulgation of the new calendar and missal in 1969. (Previously, and in the EF still, the Immaculate Conception is an anomaly that is celebrated on Sunday, with the 2nd Sunday in Advent only commemorated.)

What the USCCB did/does is determine whether or not the obligation gets transferred, along with the feast. With this particular solemnity, since it is the patronal feast of the US, when it falls on Saturday or Monday, the obligation still holds (unlike the Solemnity of Mary, Mother of God, the Assumption and All Saints), but when it is transferred from Sunday to Monday, the obligation does not also transfer. Seems inconsistent and confusing to me, but that is the current norm in the US, since the early 1990s.
 
twf said:
A solemnity is simply a solemn or great feast. All solemnities are feasts but not all feasts are solemnities :P. Typically we refer to the “feast of such and such” as prior to the liturgical reforms of 1970, what we now call solemnities were known as “first class” feasts.
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True indeed, but it works in the other direction, as well. Someone devoted to, say, St. Jane Frances de Chantal might say, “Her feast is coming up,” even though it is only a memorial, the lowest rank. The Church broadly does the same thing in any listing of saints, as it always includes a listing of the saint’s “feast day,” regardless of rank.

The term *feast *can thus be used in a specific liurgical context, which refers to the precise level of the day, or in the general popular context, which encompasses all specific saints’ and holy days, regardless of rank.
 
Since I’m new to all these things I’m always checking. I made plans to go out for dinner and go to a large college orchestra/choir concert before knowing this was a day of obligation. ALL those in my family are protestant and give me a hard time when I mention things like this, but I was determined to find a way and although a bit inconvenient I have found a way and so will you. At least your friends are Catholic,they SHOULD understand. But if not, be a witness. Not to do so makes it all about me, not Christ. Remember who gave everything for us.

My love,
mlz
 
buc_fan33 said:
Both the liturgical norms and the canon law say the day, Sunday or feast, is midnight to midnight! Also note from the commentary: “The precept may be satisfied at any Catholic Mass, i.e. not only when the texts are those of Sunday or holy day.”
Actually, Canon Law DOESN’T say that. The commentary says that, and a commentary is just that…a commentary. What the Canon says is:a person who assists at a Mass celebrated anywhere in a Catholic rite, either on the feast day itself or in the evening of the preceding day satisfies the obligation of participating in the Mass (emphasis mine).
The problem is that this year, the feast day of the Immaculate Conception is shortened, because the Second Sunday of Advent takes precedence.

Listen, I’m not a canon lawyer, and I have no desire to be one.:). W may simply have to agree to disagree on our interpretation of this canon. I don’t for a moment doubt your sincerity, and I commend you for making the effort to attend Mass. Sadly, many Catholics will simply neglect the obligation to attend Mass on IC at all.

God bless you!
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The Latin liturgical norms define the day as midnight to midnight as well as the canon law (CIC 202, CCEO 1545).

** TITLE I: LITURGICAL DAYS**
** I. The Liturgical Day in General**
3. Each day is made holy through the liturgical celebrations of the people of God, especially through the eucharistic sacrifice and the divine office. The liturgical day runs from midnight to midnight, but the observance of Sunday and solemnities begins with the evening of the preceding day.

catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?id=5932#Sunday

Canons:

Can. 202
§1. In iure, dies intellegitur spatium constans 24 horis continuo supputandis, et incipit a media nocte, nisi aliud expresse caveatur; hebdomada spatium 7 dierum; mensis spatium 30 et annus spatium 365 dierum, nisi mensis et annus dicantur sumendi prout sunt in calendario.
§2. Prout sunt in calendario semper sumendi sunt mensis et annus, si tempus est continuum

CIC Can. 202
§1 In law, a day is understood to be a space of twenty-four hours, to be reckoned continuously and, unless expressly provided otherwise, it begins at midnight; a week is a space of seven days - a month is a space of thirty days, and a year a space of three hundred and sixty-five days, unless it is stated that the month and the year are to be taken as in the calendar.
§2 If time is continuous, the month and the year are always to be taken as in the calendar.

CCEO Can. 1545
§ 1. In iure dies intellegitur spatium constans ex 24 horis continuo supputandis et incipit a media nocte; hebdomada spatium 7 dierum; mensis spatium 30 dierum, annus spatium 365 dierum, nisi mensis et annus dicuntur sumendi, prout sunt in calendario.
§ 2. Si tempus est continuum, mensis et annus semper sumendi sunt, prout sunt in calendario.

CCEO Canon 1545
  1. In the law, a day is understood as a period of time consisting of 24 continuous hours, and it begins at midnight; a week is a period of seven days, a month is a period of 30 days and a year a period of 365 days, unless the month and the year are said to be taken as they appear in the calendar.
  2. If the time is continuous, a month and a year are always to be taken as they appear in the calendar.
 
My parish bulletin and priest say Saturday, December 8, 2012, is a Holy Day of Obligation.
 
Yes, we have two obligations - one for the Immaculate Conception and one for Sunday. There is an excellent thread about this in the Liturgy forum.

As another poster said, check the other parishes around you, you will probably find several that are having a vigil Mass for the HDO on Friday evening. You can also attend a regular Saturday morning Mass.

Why not ask what the other ladies in your group are doing? Perhaps you can attend Mass for the Holy Day with one of them.
 
Chatter163 said:
Actually, the USCCB did not decide to transfer the solemnity in 2013; the Catholic Church did, back in 1969. The transfer of a solemnity from a Sunday in Advent, Lent or Easter to the next available day is the universal norm in the Roman rite, according to the promulgation of the new calendar and missal in 1969. (Previously, and in the EF still, the Immaculate Conception is an anomaly that is celebrated on Sunday, with the 2nd Sunday in Advent only commemorated.)

What the USCCB did/does is determine whether or not the obligation gets transferred, along with the feast. With this particular solemnity, since it is the patronal feast of the US, when it falls on Saturday or Monday, the obligation still holds (unlike the Solemnity of Mary, Mother of God, the Assumption and All Saints), but when it is transferred from Sunday to Monday, the obligation does not also transfer. Seems inconsistent and confusing to me, but that is the current norm in the US, since the early 1990s.
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Ah, thank you. Transfer is made to Monday December 9, in these years: 1974, 1985, 1991, 1996, 2002, 2013, 2019, 2024, 2030.

Here is something interesting, December 9 is the Conception of St. Anne for Orthodox and many eastern Catholics.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/26/Angelos_Akotanos_-Saint_Anne_with_the_Virgin-15th_century.jpg/450px-Angelos_Akotanos-Saint_Anne_with_the_Virgin-_15th_century.jpg
 
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