MERGED: Immaculate Conception Holy Day in the USA and Obligation

[CatholicZ09]

This freaks me out a bit, I thought that was always a HDO regardless of what day it is celebrated on.

Yeah I’m so confused. I though since she is the patroness of the US, then it would be a holy day of obligation irregardless of the date.

 

[SMHW]

Wow, I had no idea that it would be transferred to Monday. I thought it would basically come before anything else given that it’s our patronal feast day. Interesting. So do you think that next year on December 8 the hymns/homily/bulletin, etc. won’t really have to do with the Immaculate Conception? Or do you think most parishes will just do it anyway?

It’s not the USCCB that decides which day is celebrated as the Solemnity of the Immaculate Conception of the Blessed Virgin Mary. And the United States will celebrate the day of her Patroness. It’s still a solemnity even if it gets celebrated on a different date and isn’t a day of obligatory Mass attendance.

(Nations where the Solemnity of St. Joseph is observed as a Holy Day of Obligation have the same problem when that day falls on a Sunday since it would be during Lent. In fact things get even more complicated if March 19th falls in Holy Week.)

I wouldn’t be surprised that some parishes would throw in an extra song about Mary when December 8th falls on a Sunday. But the readings for the Second Sunday of Advent in year A are not really about Mary so probably a closing hymn.

However Mary does figure prominently in Advent (particularly the second half). And two Marian celebrations that are of particular importance to the United States, the Solemnity of the Immaculate Conception of the Blessed Virgin Mary and the Feast of Our Lady of Guadalupe, will both occur before the Third Sunday of Advent. So I would expect to hear about both days and/or read about them in bulletins.

 

[SMHW]

This freaks me out a bit, I thought that was always a HDO regardless of what day it is celebrated on.

I think it is generally the case that solemnities which would otherwise be a day of obligatory Mass attendance are not when the solemnity is transferred to another date. (This is sometimes an issue in other countries.)

In any case, December 8th is always a day of obligatory Mass attendance and, sadly, that’s hard enough for most people to remember.

 

[liturgyluver]

Wow, I had no idea that it would be transferred to Monday. I thought it would basically come before anything else given that it’s our patronal feast day. Interesting. So do you think that next year on December 8 the hymns/homily/bulletin, etc. won’t really have to do with the Immaculate Conception? Or do you think most parishes will just do it anyway?

They really should not do this. The rule is there for a purpose so we properly prepare ourselves for the Birth of Christ through the Advent lectionary. If people and parishes want to celebrate then do so on the Monday.

 

[MissRose73]

In any case, December 8th is always a day of obligatory Mass attendance and, sadly, that’s hard enough for most people to remember.

The same could be said for other Holy Days too…

 

[SMHW]

                                                                  Originally Posted by **SMHW**                     [forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_khaki/viewpost.gif](http://forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=10065634#post10065634)                 
             *In any case, December 8th is always a  day of obligatory Mass attendance and, sadly, that's hard enough for  most people to remember.*

The same could be said for other Holy Days too…

I should have been more specific and said it was true for nations where the solemnity of the Immaculate Conception is a Holy Day of Obligation. In some countries it’s not.

In the United States, December 8th is like December 25th in that it is always a day of obligatory Mass attendance. It is different from December 25th in that the usual solemnity is never transferred to another date.

In the United States, December 8th is different from November 1st, August 15th, or January 1st in that Mass is always obligatory on December 8th but not always on the other dates. (Those dates do not have obligatory Mass attendance when they fall on Saturdays or Mondays.) The solemnity of the Ascension does not have a fixed date (whether celebrated on Thursday or transferred to Sunday) so there is no date to compare with December 8th.

To reiterate my point, the Solemnity of the Immaculate Conception is *not *always a day of obligatory Mass attendance but in the United States, December 8th is always a day of obligatory mass attendance.

 

[MissRose73]

If I’ve read right, some places will have certain Saints Days as either Solemnities or Holy Days of Obligation. Example: St Patrick’s Day (March 17) in Ireland is treated in one of those ways as he is one of the principal patrons of Ireland. I am unsure if Our Lady of Guadalupe (December 12) is treated in a similar way in Mexico and/or Latin America too.

 

[SMHW]

If I’ve read right, some places will have certain Saints Days as either Solemnities or Holy Days of Obligation. Example: St Patrick’s Day (March 17) in Ireland is treated in one of those ways as he is one of the principal patrons of Ireland. I am unsure if Our Lady of Guadalupe (December 12) is treated in a similar way in Mexico and/or Latin America too.

They might be. But those days would be local solemnities since they aren’t solemnities on the universal calendar for the Western Church. If those days fall on Sundays in Lent or Advent I’d bet they get transferred. But the transfer might be local to the area for which those feasts are solemnities. And they might not be Holy Days of Obligation when transferred.

St. Joseph’s Day is a solemnity (not a day of obligatory Mass attendance in the United States even though it is a Holy Day of Obligation on the universal calendar) that gets transferred if it falls on a Sunday or in Holy Week. I have no idea if the obligation to attend Mass (where applicable) remains when it is transferred.

 

[Pug]

A Catholic paper says on the top of the front page that:
This year, the Feast of the Immaculate Conception holy day of obligation falls on a Saturday. But your Saturday evening Mass will not fulfill your obligation.

So far as I know, canon law does not say this (canon 1248). I ought to be able to use any legitimate mass on Saturday to fulfill a Saturday Holy Day. Of course on Sunday I must go to mass for Sunday obligation. No two for one deals.

Is this a case of the bishop having announced a special rule for his diocese that trumps canon law? The article did not report it as coming specially from the bishop, so it may just be some reporter’s word choice.

Thoughts?

(This post applies to the USA.)

 

[GRATEFULONEjim]

The vigil Mass said on Saturday evening is not a Saturday Mass. It’s a Sunday Mass. You have to attend either a Friday evening Mass,(vigil Mass for Saturday) or a Saturday daytime Mass to fulfill your obligation for the Holy Day, and your regular time for Mass for your Sunday obligation. Enjoy your time with our Lord that weekend.

 

[Vico]

A Catholic paper says on the top of the front page that:This year, the Feast of the Immaculate Conception holy day of obligation falls on a Saturday. But your Saturday evening Mass will not fulfill your obligation.

So far as I know, canon law does not say this (canon 1248). I ought to be able to use any legitimate mass on Saturday to fulfill a Saturday Holy Day. Of course on Sunday I must go to mass for Sunday obligation. No two for one deals.

Is this a case of the bishop having announced a special rule for his diocese that trumps canon law? The article did not report it as coming specially from the bishop, so it may just be some reporter’s word choice.

Thoughts?

(This post applies to the USA.)

As you said per the canon, since the solemnity is Saturday December 8, it may be fulfilled anytime on Saturday midnight to midnight, or the evening of Friday. The paper is incorrect.

 

[CatholicZ09]

The Saturday evening Mass (in anticipation for the Second Sunday of Advent) does not fulfill the Saturday obligation for the Immaculate Conception. The two Masses (Friday evening and Saturday during the day) and the Saturday evening/Sunday Masses are two different celebrations, Friday evening/Saturday during the day for the Immaculate Conception, and Saturday evening/Sunday for the Second Sunday of Advent.

 

[GRATEFULONEjim]

As you said per the canon, since the solemnity is Saturday December 8, it may be fulfilled anytime on Saturday midnight to midnight, or the evening of Friday. The paper is incorrect.

Then our Diocesan priest and Bishop are wrong too as it was just explained at Mass last week as to what I had posted earlier. A vigil Mass is a Mass for the next following day, and has been debated on this forum countless times. Call your Diocese for an explanation. A day as looked upon by the Church is from Vigil to Vigil.

 

[Phemie]

Then our Diocesan priest and Bishop are wrong too as it was just explained at Mass last week as to what I had posted earlier. A vigil Mass is a Mass for the next following day, and has been debated on this forum countless times. Call your Diocese for an explanation. A day as looked upon by the Church is from Vigil to Vigil.

Canon Law says that a day is to be understood as “midnight to midnight”. It also says that one fulfills one’s obligation by attending Mass on the day itself or the evening before. We have ~32 hours to fulfill our obligation. Canon Law doesn’t say it has to be the Mass of the Day.

 

[Ophelia23]

This is taken from another thread where we were talking about this yesterday:

*** Originally Posted by Ophelia23 View Post***

Ophelia23:

Mass times for Immaculate Conception at my parish are on Friday night at 7, and Saturday morning at 9. If I were to go to the Saturday Evening Mass, would that meet the requirement for both?

frdavid96:

No.

There are 2 Holy Days of Obligation.

The first is Immaculate Conception. That’s one obligation to attend one Mass.

The second is the 2nd Sunday of Advent. That’s one obligation to attend one Mass.

Attending only one Mass in an attempt to fulfill two separate obligations doesn’t work.

First, a little background (ie liturgical law).

In the Universal Norms on the Liturgical Year and the Calendar
The Sundays of Advent are assigned rank #2
The Solemnity of the Immaculate Conception is ranked #3

When a single calendar day includes 2 celebrations, the one with the higher rank (ie lower number) always takes precedence.

In this case, this year, it’s not the same calendar day, however, Saturday evening is the “overlapping” time. The 2nd Sunday of Advent begins on Saturday evening.

Normally, the feast of the Immaculate Conception would continue until midnight—however because the next day (ie 2nd Sunday of Advent) is a higher ranking celebration, the Sunday takes precedence and the liturgical day of the Imm. Conception ends at the time of Evening Prayer I for Sunday (ie. Saturday at 4 PM).

That’s a long way of saying that the answer to your question is:

Yes–attending Mass on Saturday evening fulfills the Sunday obligation, because at 6 PM, the 2nd Sunday of Advent has begun and the Solemnity of the Immaculate Conception has ended.

The pastor should (and hopefully will) schedule the proper Mass for that time/day—6 PM Saturday is the Sunday Mass.

 

[edward_george]

Canon 1247
On Sundays and other holy days of obligation the faithful are bound to participate in the Mass; they are also to abstain from those labors and business concerns which impede the worship to be rendered to God, the joy which is proper to the Lord’s Day, or the proper relaxation of mind and body.

Canon 1248

1. The precept of participating in the Mass*** is satisfied by assistance at a Mass which is celebrated anywhere in a Catholic rite either on the holy day or on the evening of the preceding day***.

The obligation is to attend Mass, though, not to attend the Mass with the correct readings and texts for the day. The way it works is that you must attend Mass twice in that weekend–once from Friday evening to sometime (midnight to midnight) on Saturday, and then again for Sunday (either Saturday evening if you have already fulfilled your obligation for the Solemnity or else on Sunday itself).

So let’s say your parish has a vigil Mass on Friday for the Solemnity, a daytime Mass Saturday for the Solemnity, an evening Mass Saturday that is the anticipated Mass for Sunday, and then the usual slate of Sunday Masses, you may do one of the following:

1. Attend Mass Friday evening (Solemnity obligation fulfilled) and attend Mass Saturday Evening or Sunday anytime (Sunday obligation met)
2. Attend Mass Saturday during the day (Solemnity obligation fulfilled) and attend Mass Saturday Evening or Sunday anytime (Sunday obligation met)
3. Attend Mass Saturday evening (Solemnity obligation fulfilled–since the precept is to attend Mass on the day or the evening before) and then Mass anytime on Sunday (Sunday obligation fulfilled)

What you may NOT do is attend Mass on Saturday evening only, as that will not fulfill both obligations.

-ACEGC

 

[dans0622]

As you said per the canon, since the solemnity is Saturday December 8, it may be fulfilled anytime on Saturday midnight to midnight, or the evening of Friday. The paper is incorrect.

I agree.

 

[edward_george]

As a follow up, I will mention too that this canon is the reason why you can attend a Mass in the Extraordinary Form of the Latin Rite which has different readings and texts (and maybe even a different feast) and still fulfill the obligation for a day of precept. You may also attend an Eastern Catholic Divine Liturgy on a day of precept, and their feasts typically don’t line up. If you attended the EF this past Sunday, you would not have been celebrating the Feast of Christ the King liturgically as were folks going to an Ordinary Form Mass; if you went to an Eastern Liturgy you’d be celebrating a different Sunday as well. But attendance at the liturgy is what satisfies the obligation, not attendance at a liturgy with texts that match the day of precept.

-ACEGC

 

[Pug]

No one has addressed the part of my question yet about can my local bishop trump canon law and declare that the Saturday evening mass does not count for the Saturday holy day? Since it was the lead on a paper for a diocese, I wondered if what was happening was if the bishop was so declaring it, so that would trump canon law (but the reporter did not actually say that). In other words, can he make particular law for his diocese that you can’t go on Saturday evening to cover the Immaculate Conception?

(Remember, in my original post I was not trying to do a two for one. I plan to go Sunday as well).

 

[Pug]

This is taken from another thread where we were talking about this yesterday:

*** Originally Posted by Ophelia23 View Post***

Ophelia23,

I think the questioner (you) was asking about doing a 2 for one. Cover your obligation for two holy days with only one mass. Fr. David is correct that you can’t do that. You need to go to two masses.

Sorry that all the post disappears in the quote. Somehow the quote feature on CAF does not quote quotes.

Also, I agree with Fr. David that the readings will be the Advent readings on the late Saturday evening mass, if I recall.