MERGED: Immaculate Conception Holy Day in the USA and Obligation

[thistle]

This Saturday, is the Solemnity of the Immaculate Conception. However, the solemnity ends at Vespers. Therefore, any mass that is celebrated after Vespers is for the Second Sunday of Advent, which is a different solemnity.

One must attend both masses, the Mass for the Immaculate Conception and the Mass for the Second Sunday of Advent.

They are not the same mass; therefore, one mass cannot fulfill both obligations. There are two completely different masses for two completely different solemnities.

Even in the breviary, there is a split this Saturday. Normally, a Solemnity runs from Vespers I to Vespers II. Since the Immaculate Conception falls on Saturday, some places will celebrate Vespers II for the Immaculate Conception, but not Vespers I for the Second Sunday of Advent. Other places will celebrate Vespers I for the Second Sunday of Advent, but not Vespers II for the Immaculate Conception. But you cannot celebrate one liturgical act to cover two solemnities.

If we look closely, even the vestments change. Saturday morning you will see white. Saturday afternoon you will see purple again. Saturday morning you will have a Gloria at mass. Saturday afternoon the Gloria is omitted. The intent of the mass is also different. The only thing that does not change from one to the other is the actual consecration. But the accidental form does change. It changes enough that the Church considers them different liturgies.

Very often, if a solemnity falls on a Saturday or Monday, the obligation is lifted. There are certain solemnities for which this cannot be done. Two that come to mind are the Immaculate Conception and Christmas. You must attend two masses.

The Immaculate Conception and the Second Sunday of Advent are completely different solemnities with their own masses. We will have to attend two masses this weekend.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV

Why would the priest publicly announce this at Mass if it is not correct? We have 3 full-time priests and two were present at the Mass where one of them made the announcement. No correction was made by the other priest. I normally attend two Masses but I bet many, if not most, of those who attend the Saturday evening Mass on Dec 8 will not attend Mass on Sunday. In my opinion they will not be committing a sin if they do not attend Mass on Sunday Dec 9 as the priest announced that they do not have to attend.

 

[bernarda624]

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[Lapey]

Why would the priest publicly announce this at Mass if it is not correct? We have 3 full-time priests and two were present at the Mass where one of them made the announcement. No correction was made by the other priest. I normally attend two Masses but I bet many, if not most, of those who attend the Saturday evening Mass on Dec 8 will not attend Mass on Sunday. In my opinion they will not be committing a sin if they do not attend Mass on Sunday Dec 9 as the priest announced that they do not have to attend.

Because liek me the priest is just a man who tries his best to get things right with his human filters in place. No disrespect but he is wrong, just as I was from what I can tell when th eother thread started this conversation last week.

Here is what I have learned;

1. IC - Vigil on Friday up to but not including the Saturday Vigil for the Second Sunday will be celebrated with the IC texts and Mass- this fully satisfies the IC obligation.
2. 2nd Sunday of Advent - Vigil Mass up to midnight Sunday is celebrated with the Sunday texts and Mass of the second Sunday of Advent. This fulfills the Sunday obligation.
3. There are two separate Mass requirements; IC and Sunday…period.
4. When can this be fulfilled? IC - from the vigil on Friday to the midnight of the feast day on Saturday night; so yes the vigil Mass of the 2nd Sunday of advent will fulfill the IC obligation.
5. Now what about the Sunday obligation??? It is still not met, so yes there is still a need to fulfill that obligation. We still need to meet that obligation so a Sunday Mass on Sunday is required after making a Mass on Saturday or the evening vigil on Friday.
6. Now on the other hand, if you make the morning Mass, IC, and the evening Mass, Sunday vigil, both on Saturday your Sunday is free!

Sorry folks, but there is a requirement on two Masses. Now here is the question, wouldn’t it be best to make the Mass of the feast day for each? Check your parish bulletin, or a neighboring parish. I’m sure you can find a time to make Mass of the IC feast, then after that a Sunday Mass.

PS. Yes you can receive communion at both if you go the same day.

All of this is included with the proper sites for canons in the other threads; also a link to Dr. Ed Peters’ blog where he addresses this in light of his canon law expertise.

 

[Lapey]

But, did you see? The General Norms for the Liturgical Year and the Calendar from the Sacred Congregation of Divine Worship explains*: **"*The liturgical day runs from midnight to midnight…". What occurs on Saturday evening is not the Second Sunday of Advent, liturgically speaking for it is still the liturgical day of Saturday, rather as the the CDW states “the observance of Sunday and solemnities begins with the evening of the preceding day”. The observance (a particular liturgy used) is not always that of the liturgical day. The canon law does not require a particular observance, it is not mentioned, only the time period is specified to meet the obligation of the liturgical day, on that day or previous evening. Even the word “previous” is telling.

I just posted this on another thread.

Here is what I have learned;

1. IC - Vigil on Friday up to but not including the Saturday Vigil for the Second Sunday will be celebrated with the IC texts and Mass- this fully satisfies the IC obligation.
2. 2nd Sunday of Advent - Vigil Mass up to midnight Sunday is celebrated with the Sunday texts and Mass of the second Sunday of Advent. This fulfills the Sunday obligation.
3. There are two separate Mass requirements; IC and Sunday…period.
4. When can this be fulfilled? IC - from the vigil on Friday to the midnight of the feast day on Saturday night; so yes the vigil Mass of the 2nd Sunday of advent will fulfill the IC obligation.
5. Now what about the Sunday obligation??? It is still not met, so yes there is still a need to fulfill that obligation. We still need to meet that obligation so a Sunday Mass on Sunday is required after making a Mass on Saturday or the evening vigil on Friday.
6. Now on the other hand, if you make the morning Mass, IC, and the evening Mass, Sunday vigil, both on Saturday your Sunday is free!

Sorry folks, but there is a requirement on two Masses. Now here is the question, wouldn’t it be best to make the Mass of the feast day for each? Check your parish bulletin, or a neighboring parish. I’m sure you can find a time to make Mass of the IC feast, then after that a Sunday Mass.

PS. Yes you can receive communion at both if you go the same day.

All of this is included with the proper sites for canons in the other threads; also a link to Dr. Ed Peters’ blog where he addresses this in light of his canon law expertise.

Hope this helps.

 

[thistle]

Because liek me the priest is just a man who tries his best to get things right with his human filters in place. No disrespect but he is wrong, just as I was from what I can tell when th eother thread started this conversation last week.

Here is what I have learned;

1. IC - Vigil on Friday up to but not including the Saturday Vigil for the Second Sunday will be celebrated with the IC texts and Mass- this fully satisfies the IC obligation.
2. 2nd Sunday of Advent - Vigil Mass up to midnight Sunday is celebrated with the Sunday texts and Mass of the second Sunday of Advent. This fulfills the Sunday obligation.
3. There are two separate Mass requirements; IC and Sunday…period.
4. When can this be fulfilled? IC - from the vigil on Friday to the midnight of the feast day on Saturday night; so yes the vigil Mass of the 2nd Sunday of advent will fulfill the IC obligation.
5. Now what about the Sunday obligation??? It is still not met, so yes there is still a need to fulfill that obligation. We still need to meet that obligation so a Sunday Mass on Sunday is required after making a Mass on Saturday or the evening vigil on Friday.
6. Now on the other hand, if you make the morning Mass, IC, and the evening Mass, Sunday vigil, both on Saturday your Sunday is free!

Sorry folks, but there is a requirement on two Masses. Now here is the question, wouldn’t it be best to make the Mass of the feast day for each? Check your parish bulletin, or a neighboring parish. I’m sure you can find a time to make Mass of the IC feast, then after that a Sunday Mass.

PS. Yes you can receive communion at both if you go the same day.

All of this is included with the proper sites for canons in the other threads; also a link to Dr. Ed Peters’ blog where he addresses this in light of his canon law expertise.

I told you there were two priests there. Are they both wrong?
It doesn’t affect me because whether its correct or not I will be going to two Masses.
However, anyone who heard the priest’s public announcement that it covers both obligations cannot possibly be committing a sin by not attending Mass on the Sunday.

 

[JReducation]

Why would the priest publicly announce this at Mass if it is not correct? We have 3 full-time priests and two were present at the Mass where one of them made the announcement. No correction was made by the other priest. I normally attend two Masses but I bet many, if not most, of those who attend the Saturday evening Mass on Dec 8 will not attend Mass on Sunday. In my opinion they will not be committing a sin if they do not attend Mass on Sunday Dec 9 as the priest announced that they do not have to attend.

There are several possibilities here. One is that bishops are well within their rights to dispense with this or modify that for their dioceses. A final possibility is that the explanation was not as clear as the priest thought and people understood something differently.

In any case, people are not culpable of sin if they are ignorant of the facts. I wouldn’t worry about it.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV

 

[Brendan]

This Saturday, is the Solemnity of the Immaculate Conception. However, the solemnity ends at Vespers. Therefore, any mass that is celebrated after Vespers is for the Second Sunday of Advent, which is a different solemnity.Br. JR, FFV

Brother,

One point of clarification. If one attends a Mass that is celebrated on Saturday after vespers, that can still fulfill the obligation for the Solemnity of the Immacuate Conception.

But it would not fulfill the obligation for the Second Sunday of Advent. That obligation would have to be fulfilled on the following Sunday ( or by a later ‘anticipatory’ Mass)

For example. If parish has Saturday evening anticipatory Masses at 6;00pm and 8:30pm.

Any Catholic may fulfill the obligation for the Solemnity of the Immaculate Conception by attending the Mass at 6:00pm, and then fulfill the obligation for the 2nd Sunday of Advent by attending the Mass at 8:30pm

Here is Dr. Ed Peters on the subject

Okay, here’s an example of how confusion arises: the USCCB states (at p. 28): “The obligation [for Immaculate Conception] is fulfilled by attending a vigil Mass on Friday evening, December 7, or Mass during the day on Saturday morning.”

Now, strictly speaking, that’s right, the Immaculate Conception obligation is satisfied by attending Mass on Friday evening or Saturday morning of Dec 8th. But here’s the problem: the obligation to attend Mass for the Immaculate Conception is also satisfied by attendance at any Mass in a Catholic rite on that Saturday afternoon, or that evening, or even up to midnight on that Saturday, regardless of the characterization of the Mass celebrated, if that is how a member of the faithful wishes to apply it. Satisfying the two Mass obligations for Immaculate Conception and for the Second Sunday in Advent is simply a matter of attending two Masses within the allotted time periods for each obligation, regardless of the characterization of the Masses one attends.

canonlawblog.wordpress.com/2012/12/02/two-mass-obligations-means-two-masses-but/

 

[Brendan]

There are several possibilities here. One is that bishops are well within their rights to dispense with this or modify that for their dioceses. A final possibility is that the explanation was not as clear as the priest thought and people understood something differently.

Or the priest could simply be mistaken.

But you are correct, there would be no sin if the obligation was dispensed by the correct authority, or if the faithful acted on unclear or erroneous information given by a correct authority.

 

[thistle]

There are several possibilities here. One is that bishops are well within their rights to dispense with this or modify that for their dioceses. A final possibility is that the explanation was not as clear as the priest thought and people understood something differently.

In any case, people are not culpable of sin if they are ignorant of the facts. I wouldn’t worry about it.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV

Thanks. As I said I will attend Mass on both days and I will tell my relatives to do the same.

 

[Lapey]

I told you there were two priests there. Are they both wrong?
It doesn’t affect me because whether its correct or not I will be going to two Masses.
However, anyone who heard the priest’s public announcement that it covers both obligations cannot possibly be committing a sin by not attending Mass on the Sunday.

It matters not how many priests were mistaken, however it does matter that they are mistaken; don’t you agree? It does not change the necessity to fulfill both Mass obligations. The key there is “2”, not one for both.

I’ve been told by priests and deacons many things which I question, but I do not rely on that one source alone to make my judgment. I had a priests tell me in the confessional that it was not a sin to miss Mass on a solemnity anyway, so if we go by “what the priest says”, we don’t have to go to Mass anyway. I am using hyperbole by the way.

I mean no disrespect to the priests or anyone here, but this is what I have found in my research of this situation; not my thoughts but people who are trained in canon law and others in liturgical law. I was wrong too, I didn’t realize that the Vigil celebrated on Saturday evening of the 2nd Sunday in Advent would satisfy the IC obligation, but it does because the feast day in midnight to midnight plus the proceeding evening, the vigil.

If the priests lead the people to sin then no the faithful, who by no fault of their own, do not own their sin the priests who led them astray do.

 

[bilop]

I told you there were two priests there. Are they both wrong?
It doesn’t affect me because whether its correct or not I will be going to two Masses.
However, anyone who heard the priest’s public announcement that it covers both obligations cannot possibly be committing a sin by not attending Mass on the Sunday.

Our Church announced the opposite; 5:30 PM Saturday counts for Sunday, not the IC, though I’d imagine it could count for IC, if you go to another Mass Sunday.

One of them has to be wrong.

God Bless

 

[Brendan]

Our Church announced the opposite; 5:30 PM Saturday counts for Sunday, not the IC, though I’d imagine it could count for IC, if you go to another Mass Sundays

That is correct. See the article that I liked to above.

Dr. Peters covers the Canon Law on the matter in very good depth.

canonlawblog.wordpress.com/2012/12/02/two-mass-obligations-means-two-masses-but/

In addition to being the professor of Canon Law at Sacred Heart Major Seminary in Detroit, he is also a Canon Lawyer ‘on staff’ for the Roman Rota and an advisor on Canon Law at the recent Synod of Bishops.

 

[in_servitude]

The term *feast *can thus be used in a specific liturgical context, which refers to the precise level of the day, or in the general popular context, which encompasses all specific saints’ and holy days, regardless of rank.

Well, it would make sense to me that this is the case if we also did not have a “rank” of celebration called “feast”. I’ll just log this as an interesting wrinkle.

 

[bilop]

That is correct. See the article that I liked to above.

Dr. Peters covers the Canon Law on the matter in very good depth.

canonlawblog.wordpress.com/2012/12/02/two-mass-obligations-means-two-masses-but/

In addition to being the professor of Canon Law at Sacred Heart Major Seminary in Detroit, he is also a Canon Lawyer ‘on staff’ for the Roman Rota and an advisor on Canon Law at the recent Synod of Bishops.

Thanks for the cite. I was extrapolating from the fact that wedding and funeral masses “count” for Sundays and other holy days, even if the readings are different.

God Bless

 

[Chatter163]

Well, it would make sense to me that this is the case if we also did not have a “rank” of celebration called “feast”. I’ll just log this as an interesting wrinkle.

In the pre-1970 kalendar, everything was called a feast; it simply was a matter of whether it was a 1st, 2nd or 3rd-class feast, etc. People have continued to use the word feast in that way.

 

[St_Stephen_1]

Ticky/Tacky question.

I have recently become aware that the Church has various kinds of celebrations:

• Solemnity
• Feast
• Memorial
• Commemoration

When I go to usccb.org, I see that December 8th is called, “Solemnity of the Immaculate Conception of the Blessed Virgin Mary” However, when I hear my fellow Catholics talk about this celebration, I hear, “Feast of the Immaculate Conception.”

Today (November 30th), it refers to today’s celebration as, “Feast of Saint Andrew, Apostle.”

December 8th is treated as a solemnity from the Liturgy of the Hours point of view while November 30th is treated as a feast - different prayer form for these different kinds of celebrations.

It seems like an error to mix “feast” and “solemnity”, especially since solemnity is the more significant celebration. Are these words in fact interchangeable?

Thanks!!

I used to struggle with this one. The word ‘feast’ has two meanings. ‘Feast’ is used generically to mean any holy day. It is also the name given to a rank of holy day. You can say Feast of the Immaculate Conception: here its a general term. You can say Solemnity of the Immaculate Conception because its rank is solemnity.

 

[Brendan]

Thanks for the cite. I was extrapolating from the fact that wedding and funeral masses “count” for Sundays and other holy days, even if the readings are different.

God Bless

That is correct. The readings are immaterial to the fulfillment of the obligation.

What is required by Canon Law is simply that you attend a Catholic Mass (of any Rite) during the appropriate time. Here is the relevant Canon

Can. 1248 §1. A person who assists at a Mass celebrated anywhere in a Catholic rite either on the feast day itself or in the evening of the preceding day satisfies the obligation of participating in the Mass.

The Readings are part of the Liturgical obligation of the ministers to celebrate the Mass according to the rubrics. The Canonical obligation is fulfilled by any valid Mass during the specific day, or in the evening before.

 

[Mrs_Sally]

I think that the major reason for not transferring obligations is because almost nobody would come other than those who would have attended weekday Mass anyway.

The reasoning I have heard is that beyond going to Mass we are to treat a HDO as a Sunday - which includes Sunday rest. Since HDO are no longer also civil holidays (except for Christmas day and a few others in various countries), it is difficult to impossible for most people to not work, not go to school, etc.

sO, In order to ensure that the majority of the faithful can properly celebrate the HDO, many of them were moved. Of course, like a lot of things, this reason (if true, but it makes sense to me) hasn’t been well explained to the faithful and we all just figured the Church “got rid” of holy days as part of the general VII housecleaning.

 

[JReducation]

Brother,

One point of clarification. If one attends a Mass that is celebrated on Saturday after vespers, that can still fulfill the obligation for the Solemnity of the Immacuate Conception.

But it would not fulfill the obligation for the Second Sunday of Advent. That obligation would have to be fulfilled on the following Sunday ( or by a later ‘anticipatory’ Mass)

For example. If parish has Saturday evening anticipatory Masses at 6;00pm and 8:30pm.

Any Catholic may fulfill the obligation for the Solemnity of the Immaculate Conception by attending the Mass at 6:00pm, and then fulfill the obligation for the 2nd Sunday of Advent by attending the Mass at 8:30pm

Here is Dr. Ed Peters on the subject

canonlawblog.wordpress.com/2012/12/02/two-mass-obligations-means-two-masses-but/

This is an interpretation of the canon. I don’t use it for two reasons.

1. It complicates matters for the person in the pew. Most people want to know if they have to attend two masses or one mass this weekend. The legalese of Canon Law is not what the average lay person is looking for.
2. Canon Law is not the ultimate arbitor of liturgical law. The highest authority in liturgical law is the Sacred Congregation for Divine Worship, beneath them it is the local bishop. Canon Law can only repeat what the Sacred Congregation says.

One of the problems with Canon Law is that everything is divided into specific sections. While one section tells you what the Sacred Congregation for Divine Worship says on this particular point. The authority of the bishop is not mentioned in this section. It’s mentioned in the section referring to bishops. People who have not read both sections don’t get to connect the dots and say, “Oh, the bishop can change this or that, because the law says that bishops have such and such authority.”

To avoid all that complication, I steer as far away from the using the canons as I can in answering a simple yes or no question, unless the person wants to know exactly what the law says.

I guess it come from being a major superior. One thing that we (Franciscans) have done for 800 years is to simply tell people (including our brothers), “Do this and don’t do that. Don’t worry about the law. I know the law and you’re covered.” We can do this, because it’s the role of the brother who is in a position of authority to know the law. We just don’t waste time explaining the law. It’s easier to explain the reason behind it or simply give a “yes” or “no” answer.

You just reminded me my my daughter. She’s getting married in April. She asked me if she could marry outside of her diocese. Her reason is that she wants me to attend the wedding, but my community has denied the permission for me travel outside of our region. Yes, even superiors general are governed by their subordinates. That’s another story.

I began to explain to her what the law said and why it said it and what one has to do to get the permission. Somewhere along the way she put her hand out like a police officer and said, “Dad, can I have just a simple “yes” or “no”? I don’t care about the wording of the law.” I told her, “Yes, it’s possible. You have to do several things.” She responds, “Without quoting Canon Law, what to I have to do and to whom do I have to speak? No Canon Law, please. Just the practical stuff.”

I started to laugh, because I realized that most Catholics just want a simple yes or no answer to their questions. Those who want more will ask for it and then I can point them to where they can find it.

Your reference to Dr. Peters is a good one. However, there are canonists and bishops who disagree with his interpretation of the canon. At the end of the day, I say “go with your bishop.” If he’s wrong, non one else is accountable except him.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV

 

[Brendan]

1. Canon Law is not the ultimate arbitor of liturgical law. The highest authority in liturgical law is the Sacred Congregation for Divine Worship, beneath them it is the local bishop. Canon Law can only repeat what the Sacred Congregation says. )

Brother,

One item that Dr. Peters notes is that the obligation is Canonical in nature. The Liturgical Law addresses what color vestments are worn, what readings are said, if the Gloria is to be said or not, etc… The obligation itself comes from Canon Law, and not liturgical law, and thus the correct answer should be looked for in Canon Law.

Thus there is no arbitration of liturgical law required. Each form of law addresses it’ own area.