MERGED: Is this allowed?/Gospel Interruption/Lay Gospel readers

[Pakesh]

Hello all,

I have a question about the norms regarding the reading of the Gospel during Mass. I am out of town and I went to the local Parish. Today, for the Gospel of the Samaritan woman, the Gospel was read like it is on Palm Sunday-i.e. there were two lay women reading as narrators, and the Monsignor read Jesus’s lines! Then after every few sentences, the choir would sing a refrain “give us living water.” Needless to say, my antennae went up immediately. I have never, ever seen this done or heard it before outside of Holy Week. Since I am out of town, and I don’t have my copy of the GIRM, does anyone know if this was an abuse, or is it allowed?

Thanks, and God Bless
Pakesh

 

[JM3]

Hello all,

I have a question about the norms regarding the reading of the Gospel during Mass. I am out of town and I went to the local Parish. Today, for the Gospel of the Samaritan woman, the Gospel was read like it is on Palm Sunday-i.e. there were two lay women reading as narrators, and the Monsignor read Jesus’s lines! Then after every few sentences, the choir would sing a refrain “give us living water.” Needless to say, my antennae went up immediately. I have never, ever seen this done or heard it before outside of Holy Week. Since I am out of town, and I don’t have my copy of the GIRM, does anyone know if this was an abuse, or is it allowed?

Thanks, and God Bless
Pakesh

GENERAL INSTRUCTION OF THE ROMAN MISSAL

1. If there are several persons present who are able to exercise the same ministry, nothing forbids their distributing among themselves and performing different parts of the same ministry or duty. For example, one deacon may be assigned to take the sung parts, another to serve at the altar; if there are several readings, it is well to distribute them among a number of lectors. The same applies for the other ministries. But it is not at all appropriate that several persons divide a single element of the celebration among themselves, e.g., that the same reading be proclaimed by two lectors, one after the other, except as far as the Passion of the Lord is concerned.

 

[Pakesh]

Thanks!
God Bless, Pakesh

 

[laszlo]

During the first half of the second millennium the mystery plays acted out the Gospel for the major feasts; so theologically there is nothing wrong with such practice, in itself it is not against Gods will, which is proven by the continuous custom of the Passion reading too.

The reform during and after the XIX Ecumenical council abolished this widely used custom, and the Church did not restored it jet, so it is (I believe minor) disobedience against the rules.

 

[Maureen1125]

Please forgive me…but why are so many people so intent on finding “errors” in the mass?

You are there to be with God and yet it seems like some people are really only going so that they can police the mass and make sure the Priest doesn’t somehow mess it up.

IE…We had a guest speaker and they spoke after the homily instead of after communion!! The priest wore Green Vestments and it is Lent…isn’t he supposed to wear Purple!! They allowed a WOMAN to “preach”!!!

It is not our place to police the mass.

 

[Phemie]

Please forgive me…but why are so many people so intent on finding “errors” in the mass?

You are there to be with God and yet it seems like some people are really only going so that they can police the mass and make sure the Priest doesn’t somehow mess it up.

IE…We had a guest speaker and they spoke after the homily instead of after communion!! The priest wore Green Vestments and it is Lent…isn’t he supposed to wear Purple!! They allowed a WOMAN to “preach”!!!

It is not our place to police the mass.

I disagree. If not our place, whose then? When abuses occur someone has to speak up or the abuses continue.

 

[benedictgal]

Please forgive me…but why are so many people so intent on finding “errors” in the mass?

You are there to be with God and yet it seems like some people are really only going so that they can police the mass and make sure the Priest doesn’t somehow mess it up.

IE…We had a guest speaker and they spoke after the homily instead of after communion!! The priest wore Green Vestments and it is Lent…isn’t he supposed to wear Purple!! They allowed a WOMAN to “preach”!!!

It is not our place to police the mass.

Maureen, with all due respect, what the OP witnessed at Mass was indeed a serious breach. It was ilicit.

According to Redemptionis Sacramentum:

[63.] Within the celebration of the Sacred Liturgy, the reading of the Gospel, which is “the high point of the Liturgy of the Word”,139 is reserved by the Church’s tradition to an ordained minister.140 Thus it is not permitted for a layperson, even a religious, to proclaim the Gospel reading in the celebration of Holy Mass, nor in other cases in which the norms do not explicitly permit it.141

I also find it somewhat insulting that folks should label those who care about the integrity of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass as being “liturgical police”. Redemptionis Sacramentum clearly states the opposite:

[183.] In an altogether particular manner, let everyone do all that is in their power to ensure that the Most Holy Sacrament of the Eucharist will be protected from any and every irreverence or distortion and that all abuses be thoroughly corrected. This is a most serious duty incumbent upon each and every one, and all are bound to carry it out without any favoritism.

[184.] Any Catholic, whether Priest or Deacon or lay member of Christ’s faithful, has the right to lodge a complaint regarding a liturgical abuse to the diocesan Bishop or the competent Ordinary equivalent to him in law, or to the Apostolic See on account of the primacy of the Roman Pontiff.290 It is fitting, however, insofar as possible, that the report or complaint be submitted first to the diocesan Bishop. This is naturally to be done in truth and charity.

It does breakl my heart that people would treat the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass so lightly. The liturgy is not our own personal property to do with as we please. It is the Church’s most sacred treasure and it should be treated with the utmost respect and care.

 

[Pakesh]

Benedictgal,

Thanks for that great post and the quotations you provided:thumbsup: The parish I visited is where my brother and his family live, and I have noticed things here and there about the Mass that aren’t right (i.e. a lot of ad libing by Monsignor on the opening prayers). This Gospel reading/singing was the most overt abuse I’ve noticed. My brother and his family have noticed things about the Mass at this Parish as well.

Now, as far as the Poster who thought I was being nitpicky (sorry I forgot the poster’s name), this is the first time EVER I have posted a question like this in this particular forum. Usually, I look it up myself, or keep my mouth shut, but this “abuse” was just too obvious to me, and I wanted to make sure before I rushed to a decision. The Liturgy is literally the meeting of Heaven and Earth. The rules are there because of the sublime nature of the Mass. Why else would the Church give us the rules? The Mass is not the plaything for the lay or ordained to mess with. And, I don’t go around looking for mistakes, but sometimes the mistakes are so profound it’s like I’m being slapped in the head.

Thanks again to all who posted. God Bless,
Pakesh

 

[amerrychase]

No further advice, just commiseration. I was sure this was going to be the parish I went to yesterday, until I saw there was a Monsignor! We also sat and had lay readers and the “give us living water” response during the Gospel- very unsettling.

 

[Joan_M]

Please forgive me…but why are so many people so intent on finding “errors” in the mass?

You are there to be with God and yet it seems like some people are really only going so that they can police the mass and make sure the Priest doesn’t somehow mess it up.

IE…We had a guest speaker and they spoke after the homily instead of after communion!! The priest wore Green Vestments and it is Lent…isn’t he supposed to wear Purple!! They allowed a WOMAN to “preach”!!!

It is not our place to police the mass.

Actually, unfortunately, it is our place.

If so many priests would just do what they are required to do - Say the Black, do the Red - as directed by the Liturgical Law ( the General Instructions of the Roman Missal), without tweaking the liturgy as they want, we would not. But, we, the laity, are entitled to an authentic liturgy, exactly as laid down by the Church.

If only priests would be obedient to the Church and get a spine when it comes to members of the laity wanting some things in the Mass just because they are “nice”.

 

[Pakesh]

No further advice, just commiseration. I was sure this was going to be the parish I went to yesterday, until I saw there was a Monsignor! We also sat and had lay readers and the “give us living water” response during the Gospel- very unsettling.

Wow! It’s very interesting to me to hear the same thing being done in Indiana! All I will say is the parish I’m speaking of is in Virginia. Now, the question seems to be, where is this practice (for this specific Gospel) coming from? It’s obviously not a coincidence if it was done at your parish too. I hope some more people can shed light on this!

God Bless
Pakesh

 

[Phemie]

Wow! It’s very interesting to me to hear the same thing being done in Indiana! All I will say is the parish I’m speaking of is in Virginia. Now, the question seems to be, where is this practice (for this specific Gospel) coming from? It’s obviously not a coincidence if it was done at your parish too. I hope some more people can shed light on this!

God Bless
Pakesh

Many years ago there was a book published that contained Gospels in parts like you experienced. I’m not sure who the publisher was and I know it was never approved by Rome, but it was probably purchased by many parishes and it’s still floating around out there. I found a copy in my parish and disappeared it before anyone got ideas.

 

[Pakesh]

Many years ago there was a book published that contained Gospels in parts like you experienced. I’m not sure who the publisher was and I know it was never approved by Rome, but it was probably purchased by many parishes and it’s still floating around out there. I found a copy in my parish and disappeared it before anyone got ideas.

Very interesting. Do you happen to remember its title? And, not that I doubt you, but is there somewhere where I can get “proof” that it was never approved by Rome?

Thanks and God Bless,
Pakesh

 

[Phemie]

Very interesting. Do you happen to remember its title? And, not that I doubt you, but is there somewhere where I can get “proof” that it was never approved by Rome?

Thanks and God Bless,
Pakesh

It was called
“This Is the Word of the Lord”
Readings of the Liturgy in Dialogue Form
Holy Week, Selected Sundays, Major Feasts

Oh, and it was published by Ave Maria Press in 1974 and reissued in 1984.

I’ll admit that I came to the conclusion that it wasn’t approved by Rome because there is no imprimatur and in the introduction the ‘author’ writes “Some liturgists object to this method of proclaiming the scriptures by dividing the text into roles. We might indeed fault a weekly diet of scripture proclamation by several readers. But the purpose of this book is not to change our traditional ways of reading and proclaiming. It aims to offer parishes the choice of a different way for occasional use.”

To be fair, the 1975 GIRM did not say “But it is not at all appropriate that several persons divide a single element of the celebration among themselves, e.g., that the same reading be proclaimed by two lectors, one after the other, except as far as the Passion of the Lord is concerned.”

 

[Pakesh]

To be fair, the 1975 GIRM did not say “But it is not at all appropriate that several persons divide a single element of the celebration among themselves, e.g., that the same reading be proclaimed by two lectors, one after the other, except as far as the Passion of the Lord is concerned.”

Thanks for the great info and same-day reply Now, please correct me if I am incorrect. Because the 1975 GIRM didn’t say the above, it was “okay”, if not iffy. But now the GIRM does say that, so it would be inappropriate today, right?

Thanks again, and God Bless,
Pakesh

 

[Phemie]

Thanks for the great info and same-day reply Now, please correct me if I am incorrect. Because the 1975 GIRM didn’t say the above, it was “okay”, if not iffy. But now the GIRM does say that, so it would be inappropriate today, right?

Thanks again, and God Bless,
Pakesh

Just because something is not expressly forbidden in the GIRM doesn’t mean it’s OK. I think in 1975 we were still close enough to the Traditional Mass that nobody expected people would take this kind of liberty with the Gospel reading. Sadly, because people did take such liberties, they felt a need to include that statement in the 2002 GIRM.

 

[JM3]

Thanks for the great info and same-day reply Now, please correct me if I am incorrect. Because the 1975 GIRM didn’t say the above, it was “okay”, if not iffy. But now the GIRM does say that, so it would be inappropriate today, right?

Thanks again, and God Bless,
Pakesh

The 1970 & 1975 GIRM do say something about it.

1970 GIRM: catholicliturgy.com/index.cfm/FuseAction/documentText/Index/4/SubIndex/67/ContentIndex/172/Start/1

1. Among ministers, the deacon, whose order has been held in high honor since the early Church, has first place. At Mass he has his own functions: he proclaims the gospel, sometimes preaches God’s word, leads the general intercessions, assists the priest, gives communion to the people (in particular, ministering the chalice), and sometimes gives directions regarding the assembly’s moving, standing, kneeling, or sitting.

1975 GIRM says the same thing: ewtn.com/library/CURIA/GIRM.HTM#1

1. Among ministers, the deacon, whose order has been held in high honor since the early Church, has first place. At Mass he has his own functions: he proclaims the gospel, sometimes preaches God’s word, leads the general intercessions, assists the priest, gives communion to the people (in particular, ministering the chalice), and sometimes gives directions regarding the assembly’s moving, standing, kneeling, or sitting.

They also say this: 1975 GIRM

II Office And Function Of The People Of God

1. In the celebration of Mass the faithful are a holy people, a people God has made his own, a royal priesthood: they give thanks to the Father and offer the victim not only through the hands of the priest but also together with him and learn to offer themselves.[50] They should endeavor to make this clear by their deep sense of reverence for God and their charity toward all who share with them in the celebration.

They therefore are to shun any appearance of individualism or division, keeping before their mind that they have the one Father in heaven and therefore are all brothers and sisters to each other.

They should become one body, whether by hearing the word of God, or joining in prayers and song, or above all by offering the sacrifice together and sharing together in the Lord’s table. There is a beautiful expression of this unity when the faithful maintain uniformity in their actions and in standing, sitting, or kneeling.

The faithful should serve the people of God willingly when asked to perform some particular ministry in the celebration.

1970 GIRM

Chapter III-B. Offices and Function of the People of God

1. In the celebration of Mass the faithful are a holy people, a people God has made his own, a royal priesthood: they give thanks to the Father and offer the victim not only through the hands of the priest but also together with him and learn to offer themselves. [50] They should endeavor to make this clear by their deep sense of reverence for God and their charity toward all who share with them in the celebration.

They therefore are to shun any appearance of individualism or division, keeping before their mind that they have the one Father in heaven and therefore are all brothers and sisters to each other.

They should become one body, whether by hearing the word of God, or joining in prayers and song, or above all by offering the sacrifice together and sharing together in the Lord’s table. There is a beautiful expression of this unity when the faithful maintain uniformity in their actions and in standing, sitting, or kneeling.

 

[StJudePray4Me]

So just to clarify, it is okay to read the gospel in “roles” for the Passion, but not at other times?

This was done last Sunday at my parish as well.

 

[Phemie]

But you have to contrast specifically 1970 & 1975’s

1. If there are several persons present who are empowered to exercise the same ministry, there is no objection to their being assigned different parts to perform. For example, one deacon may take the sung parts, another assist at the altar; if there are several readings, it is better to distribute them among a number of readers. The same applies for the other ministries.

with 2002’s

1. If there are several persons present who are able to exercise the same ministry, nothing forbids their distributing among themselves and performing different parts of the same ministry or duty. For example, one deacon may be assigned to take the sung parts, another to serve at the altar; if there are several readings, it is well to distribute them among a number of lectors. The same applies for the other ministries. But it is not at all appropriate that several persons divide a single element of the celebration among themselves, e.g., that the same reading be proclaimed by two lectors, one after the other, except as far as the Passion of the Lord is concerned.

The part in red applies to Deacons as well as laity.

Not sure why you felt that the segments on posture were relevant to the discussion.

 

[Phemie]

So just to clarify, it is okay to read the gospel in “roles” for the Passion, but not at other times?

This was done last Sunday at my parish as well.

Yes, it’s OK for the Passion, in fact, in the Lectionary the Passion is rendered both as a straight reading for one person and then in parts for Narrator, Jesus, Crowd.