MERGED: Kneeling during consecration?

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At my college Catholic center we have mass every sunday and the priests always make it very clear for everyone to remain standing during the consecration until after we have received. At first, I thought this was fine, then I sort of realized that we are at calvary and it doesn’t seem appropriate to remain standing. Now at every mass I am basically the only one that kneels during the consecration.

The center says that we do it for unity and they even said that the Cardinal-Archbishop of L.A., Roger Mahony, stated that “standing has always been the Church’s principle posture for communal prayer.”

Is it a sin to remain standing? Is it wrong or disrespectful? Or am I being a little bit too scrupulous? :eek:

Thank you!!!
 
At The center says that we do it for unity and they even said that the Cardinal-Archbishop of L.A., Roger Mahony, stated that “standing has always been the Church’s principle posture for communal prayer.”
is he your bishop? follow his direction. or follow the direction of your own bishop
 
Assuming you are in the US, the GIRM states to kneel from after the Sanctus (Holy, Holy, Holy) until after the Great Amen. It is not a sin to stand, especially if your priest tells you to. However, a priest cannot change the norm to standing on his own initiative. Unless there is a safety reason (such as bleacher seating), of course. But it’s on him, not you.
 
is he your bishop? follow his direction. or follow the direction of your own bishop
The bishop has the authority to define a posture from the Agnus Dei until one’s personal reception of Holy Communion.

Kneeling for the Consecration itself ( from after the Sanctus) is required by the Church.
 
Kneeling for the Consecration itself ( from after the Sanctus) is required by the Church.
*Required *“except when prevented on occasion by reasons of health, lack of space, the large number of people present, or some other good reason.” If you do find yourself in a situation where you are standing during the consecration, make a profound bow when the celebrant genuflects (should genuflect) after the elevations – He will be impressed.

tee
 
From the 2002 General Instruction of the Roman Missal (GIRM) approved for the USA, which can be accessed from romanrite.com/girm.html :

“43. … In the dioceses of the United States of America, they should kneel beginning after the singing or recitation of the Sanctus until after the Amen of the Eucharistic Prayer, except when prevented on occasion by reasons of health, lack of space, the large number of people present, or some other good reason. Those who do not kneel ought to make a profound bow when the priest genuflects after the consecration. The faithful kneel after the Agnus Dei unless the Diocesan Bishop determines otherwise. [footnote 53: Cf. Second Vatican Ecumenical Council, Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy, Sacrosanctum Concilium, no. 40; Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments, Instruction Varietates legitimae, 25 January 1994, no. 41: AAS 87 (1995), p. 304.]
With a view to a uniformity in gestures and postures during one and the same celebration, the faithful should follow the directions which the deacon, lay minister, or priest gives according to whatever is indicated in the Missal.”

Another direction for the same posture as others is in n. 42 of the GIRM:
“A common posture, to be observed by all participants, is a sign of the unity of the members of the Christian community gathered for the Sacred Liturgy: it both expresses and fosters the intention and spiritual attitude of the participants.”
 
Even in L.A. we kneel from after the Sanctus through the Great Amen.
 
Thank you so much for all your replies, they really did help a lot!!! 👍

I guess the priests at our Catholic Center feel like we should stand because of the fact that 1) there are bleacher seats, in which there is no real room to kneel and 2) they want us to be in uniform posture.

So I take it I should simply follow the instructions of the priest in order to preserve the unity and uniformity of the mass?
 
Thank you so much for all your replies, they really did help a lot!!! 👍

I guess the priests at our Catholic Center feel like we should stand because of the fact that 1) there are bleacher seats, in which there is no real room to kneel and 2) they want us to be in uniform posture.

So I take it I should simply follow the instructions of the priest in order to preserve the unity and uniformity of the mass?
I am a new Catholic, a hard-liner, and a bit of a Pharisee. Take what I say with significant doses of salt.

Kneeling during the consecration can be a complicated issue. However. it’s what we do in the West. It’s not what we’ve always done. Like our brethren in the East, we used to stand for Mass. Penitents, that is, Christians who had committed grave sins, knelt during the consecratory prayers. During penitential seasons (Lent, since Advent didn’t exist), everyone knelt.

Anyways, in the west, likely because of a recognition of our own sinfulness and desire to adore Christ in the Eucharist, we adopted the habit of kneeling during all seasons, even Easter and during Sundays. In the East, this is inappropriate. They do not kneel on Sundays or during the Easter season. They rejoice in the presence of their Risen Savior.

In the West, we developed the small “t” tradition of kneeling primarily as an expression of adoration, and secondarily as an expression of penance. However, it is very ancient, and firmly entrenched in Western culture and liturgy.

Hence, it is appropriate that all Latin Christians kneel during the appropriate times in the Mass. This is from the end of the Sanctus to the end of the consecratory prayer. It is custom in the United States to kneel from the end of the Agnus Dei until the reception of communion. Finally, many people kneel after reception of communion in private adoration.

However, the only time required by Rome is during the consecratory prayer.

In summary of the views of the Eastern churches and the Western church:

In the East, it is offensive to kneel, because it is a hypocritical expression of one’s own sinfulness, and a failure to acknowledge the joy and release from sin that Christ gives.

In the West, it is an offense not to kneel at the consecration, because it fails to express adequate adoration and oblation that should be presented to Christ on the altar.

Hence, while the good Cardinal is correct, standing is the traditional posture for Christian liturgical prayer, kneeling is the cultural posture that expresses adequate belief in the Real Presence and true adoration for Christ.

In the West, standing during the consecration is a horrid sign of the gradual decay for belief in the Real Presence. It does not necessarily mean that the congregation and the priest doubt it, but it indicates that their appreciation for it and their full realization has diminished greatly.

Now, I also address those infirm, elderly, pregnant, or otherwise inhibited: Christ sees your heart. If you kneel to him in spirit and in truth, but are prevented in physical reality, there is no difference. Do not force yourself to bear great pain, damage yourself, or injure your unborn child out of an absurd legalism.

Now, you had two reasons to stand at the consecration:
  1. There are bleacher seats, with no room to kneel.
  2. The leadership wants the laity to adopt a uniform posture.
In response to the first one, this is the school’s Catholic center. If they failed to design it to accommodate kneeling, then the designers were falling into error. Christ is present in the Eucharist, and if it is not altogether too dangerous for you to kneel, but only slightly inconvenient, then kneeling is the correct posture. To hell with the lack of kneelers and cramped conditions; Christ is on the altar. Christ, your high priest, stands there and offers the gift that reconciles you to his Father and removes your sins. Adore him, adore his sacrifice, and adore his Father. When piety has made a comeback, churches will be remade to accommodate piety. Piety must not accommodate church buildings. We cannot forget our Latin ancestors who stood and knelt on tile for six hour liturgies in the pewless churches in Europe.

Secondly, the leadership are advocating an erroneous position. The Latin Patriarch has said that we shall kneel. Hence, we shall kneel. It matters not if you are the only one following this command. A billion Latin Catholics adopt the uniform position of kneeling for this holy and sacred moment; why should the few hundred at your college dictate what the uniform posture for the Latin Rite is? Adoration for Christ cannot be thrown aside for a unity in rebellion against the Holy Father’s instructions.

Every time they stand for the consecration, respect for and belief in the Real Presence diminish. When you kneel, you correct their error, you shame their lack of piety, and you express your adoration for Christ in a most profound and visible way.

To paraphrase His Eminence Francis Cardinal Arinze, if you believe that Christ is our God, and that he is truly present in the Eucharist, why don’t you kneel? Why don’t you crawl? Show respect!

The choice, as I see it, is between adoration and unity in rebellion.
 
My college’s Newman Center is the same way. There are two chapels; only one has kneelers. In the other one, I kneel on the tile. I am young and spry and my knees handle it well. Almost no one else kneels. Since I have been coming more frequently, I have noticed more parishioners kneeling. I do not know if my behavior caused it. There is also a tendency for them to kneel after receiving Holy Communion, but not during the consecration. No position is proscribed at this point. It delights me, because it shows their sincere adoration of Christ in their heart, and a love for their God who they have most mercifully received. I believe, that did the priests not erroneously encourage them not to kneel, and did more people engage in kneeling during the consecratory prayer, that many of them would quickly change their posture.

We must also be careful to avoid the mental disease of Pharisaism. It infects the soul with pretensions of holiness and piety. It is, in fact, a deep-seated lie of Satan that we embrace because of our pride. Do not believe that simply because your knees touch the ground that you have more adoration in your heart. Only God sees your heart, and he knows how truly wicked it is. He loves you nonetheless. Do not let your love and respect for your brother Christian diminish because he assumes another posture. Is he not a bearer of the Image of God? Does he not possess reason and an intellect? Does he not come to Mass, participate in the prayers, and receive his Lord humbly, albeit standing?

It is better to kneel at the consecration in my opinion. However, if you demean your neighbor in your heart because he does not kneel, you commit the greater sin.
 
I am a new Catholic, a hard-liner, and a bit of a Pharisee. Take what I say with significant doses of salt.

Kneeling during the consecration can be a complicated issue. However. it’s what we do in the West. It’s not what we’ve always done. Like our brethren in the East, we used to stand for Mass. Penitents, that is, Christians who had committed grave sins, knelt during the consecratory prayers. During penitential seasons (Lent, since Advent didn’t exist), everyone knelt.

Anyways, in the west, likely because of a recognition of our own sinfulness and desire to adore Christ in the Eucharist, we adopted the habit of kneeling during all seasons, even Easter and during Sundays. In the East, this is inappropriate. They do not kneel on Sundays or during the Easter season. They rejoice in the presence of their Risen Savior.

In the West, we developed the small “t” tradition of kneeling primarily as an expression of adoration, and secondarily as an expression of penance. However, it is very ancient, and firmly entrenched in Western culture and liturgy.

Hence, it is appropriate that all Latin Christians kneel during the appropriate times in the Mass. This is from the end of the Sanctus to the end of the consecratory prayer. It is custom in the United States to kneel from the end of the Agnus Dei until the reception of communion. Finally, many people kneel after reception of communion in private adoration.

However, the only time required by Rome is during the consecratory prayer.

In summary of the views of the Eastern churches and the Western church:

In the East, it is offensive to kneel, because it is a hypocritical expression of one’s own sinfulness, and a failure to acknowledge the joy and release from sin that Christ gives.

In the West, it is an offense not to kneel at the consecration, because it fails to express adequate adoration and oblation that should be presented to Christ on the altar.

Hence, while the good Cardinal is correct, standing is the traditional posture for Christian liturgical prayer, kneeling is the cultural posture that expresses adequate belief in the Real Presence and true adoration for Christ.

In the West, standing during the consecration is a horrid sign of the gradual decay for belief in the Real Presence. It does not necessarily mean that the congregation and the priest doubt it, but it indicates that their appreciation for it and their full realization has diminished greatly.

Now, I also address those infirm, elderly, pregnant, or otherwise inhibited: Christ sees your heart. If you kneel to him in spirit and in truth, but are prevented in physical reality, there is no difference. Do not force yourself to bear great pain, damage yourself, or injure your unborn child out of an absurd legalism.

Now, you had two reasons to stand at the consecration:
  1. There are bleacher seats, with no room to kneel.
  2. The leadership wants the laity to adopt a uniform posture.
In response to the first one, this is the school’s Catholic center. If they failed to design it to accommodate kneeling, then the designers were falling into error. Christ is present in the Eucharist, and if it is not altogether too dangerous for you to kneel, but only slightly inconvenient, then kneeling is the correct posture. To hell with the lack of kneelers and cramped conditions; Christ is on the altar. Christ, your high priest, stands there and offers the gift that reconciles you to his Father and removes your sins. Adore him, adore his sacrifice, and adore his Father. When piety has made a comeback, churches will be remade to accommodate piety. Piety must not accommodate church buildings. We cannot forget our Latin ancestors who stood and knelt on tile for six hour liturgies in the pewless churches in Europe.

Secondly, the leadership are advocating an erroneous position. The Latin Patriarch has said that we shall kneel. Hence, we shall kneel. It matters not if you are the only one following this command. A billion Latin Catholics adopt the uniform position of kneeling for this holy and sacred moment; why should the few hundred at your college dictate what the uniform posture for the Latin Rite is? Adoration for Christ cannot be thrown aside for a unity in rebellion against the Holy Father’s instructions.

Every time they stand for the consecration, respect for and belief in the Real Presence diminish. When you kneel, you correct their error, you shame their lack of piety, and you express your adoration for Christ in a most profound and visible way.

To paraphrase His Eminence Francis Cardinal Arinze, if you believe that Christ is our God, and that he is truly present in the Eucharist, why don’t you kneel? Why don’t you crawl? Show respect!

The choice, as I see it, is between adoration and unity in rebellion.
I agree with almost everything you said. For the reasons you pointed out, that had been why I refused to remain standing – i viewed it as disrespectful.

With that being said, I now see (from the other poster’s comments – Canon Law) that it is alright to stand if the priests ask us to. I cannot fault those who built the chapel the way it is (it used to be a frat house before it was concerted to the Catholic center lol), because there is nothing that can be done about it anymore. I wish to preserve the unity and uniformity of the celebration… and now that I see it is NOT a sin to stand, I believe that I may begin to as well.
 
I agree with almost everything you said. For the reasons you pointed out, that had been why I refused to remain standing – i viewed it as disrespectful.

With that being said, I now see (from the other poster’s comments – Canon Law) that it is alright to stand if the priests ask us to. I cannot fault those who built the chapel the way it is (it used to be a frat house before it was concerted to the Catholic center lol), because there is nothing that can be done about it anymore. I wish to preserve the unity and uniformity of the celebration… and now that I see it is NOT a sin to stand, I believe that I may begin to as well.
It’s not a sin. God sees your heart, and if your decision is prayerful, respectful, and intelligent, then choosing to stand could easily be the best choice.

The side that I fall upon is that the priests are disobeying the Holy Father, and thus I submit to his authority over theirs, but situations are more complex. If the obedience to the priest is fragile in a parish, then refusing to comply with his admonition to stand could be very sinful.

For me, I am made ill by the disrespect, illicit behavior, and lack of condemnation for immorality at my school’s Newman Center. Hence, I think that shirking the parochial custom makes the most sense. However, you know your school’s situation much better than I.
 
To paraphrase His Eminence Francis Cardinal Arinze, if you believe that Christ is our God, and that he is truly present in the Eucharist, why don’t you kneel? Why don’t you crawl? Show respect!

The choice, as I see it, is between adoration and unity in rebellion.
Exactly.

If Jesus came back to Earth today and stood before us, would we not fall to the ground in humility and worship? Absolutely.

He stands before us in the Eucharist at every Mass.

E.A.
 
The center says that we do it for unity and they even said that the Cardinal-Archbishop of L.A., Roger Mahony, stated that “standing has always been the Church’s principle posture for communal prayer.”
Below are excerpts from The Spirit of the Liturgy, written by then-Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger, now Pope Benedict XVI:
There are groups, of no small influence, who are trying to talk us out of kneeling. “It doesn’t suit our culture”, they say (which culture?) “It’s not right for a grown man to do this – he should face God on his feet”. Or again: “It’s not appropriate for redeemed man – he has been set free by Christ and doesn’t need to kneel any more”.
Here, he presents the arguments that many use against kneeling. Now, comes the Holy Father’s response:
Kneeling does not come from any culture – it comes from the Bible and its knowledge of God. The central importance of kneeling in the Bible can be seen in a very concrete way. The word proskynein alone occurs fifty-nine times in the New Testament, twenty-four of which are in the Apocalypse, the book of the heavenly Liturgy, which is presented to the Church as the standard for her own Liturgy.
Thus, we already have the posture of kneeling already rooted in Scripture. He goes on to write that:
The Acts of the Apostles tells us how Saint Peter (9:40), Saint Paul (20:36), and the whole Christian community (21:5) pray on their knees.
Particularly important for our question is the account of the martyrdom of Saint Stephen. The first man to witness to Christ with his blood is described in his suffering as a perfect image of Christ, whose Passion is repeated in the martyrdom of the witness, even in small details. One of these is that Stephen, on his knees, takes up the petition of the crucified Christ: “Lord, do not hold this sin against them” (7:60). We should remember that Luke, unlike Matthew and Mark, speaks of the Lord kneeling in Gethsemane, which shows that Luke wants the kneeling of the first martyr to be seen as his entry into the prayer of Jesus. Kneeling is not only a Christian gesture, but a christological one.
Thus, kneeling is a Christological posture. Even though he does not specifically speak to the consecration in these excerpts, one can certainly make that leap. In fact, as Pope, he uses the same arguments in the homily he preached back in 2008 during the Solemnity of Corpus Christi when he formally reintegrated the practice of kneeling to receive Holy Communion during Papal Masses.
 
Here is an excerpt from the homily that I mentioned in my initial reply to this thread:
Kneeling before the Eucharist is a profession of freedom: those who bow to Jesus cannot and must not prostrate themselves before any earthly authority, however powerful. We Christians kneel only before God or before the Most Blessed Sacrament because we know and believe that the one true God is present in it, the God who created the world and so loved it that he gave his Only Begotten Son (cf. Jn 3: 16). We prostrate ourselves before a God who first bent over man like the Good Samaritan to assist him and restore his life, and who knelt before us to wash our dirty feet. Adoring the Body of Christ, means believing that there, in that piece of Bread, Christ is really there, and gives true sense to life, to the immense universe as to the smallest creature, to the whole of human history as to the most brief existence. Adoration is prayer that prolongs the celebration and Eucharistic communion and in which the soul continues to be nourished: it is nourished with love, truth, peace; it is nourished with hope, because the One before whom we prostrate ourselves does not judge us, does not crush us but liberates and transforms us.
I hope this helps.
 
I kneel where ever I attend Mass. I am not worried about the “whims” of Bishops from diocese to diocese.
 
I was going to quote Cardinal Arinze but I see I’ve been beat to it 🙂

KNEEL. Our very God is coming at that moment, how could anybody have the audacity to remain standing, as if sinless and perfect, in His Presence? Remember the people who fell down, shaking and covering their eyes, and even the sight of angels, a mere reflection of God’s glory. Remember the woman who washed Our Lord’s dusty feet with her HAIR in front of a group of people. Remember your sins and unworthiness, do not be afraid of those who might make fun of you or stare, do your best not to be tempted into feeling superior, and kneel before Our Lord!
 
Hello everyone,
I have a question to ask about kneeling during the consecration. I sometimes attend a church in which only a few people kneel. There are no kneelers. I feel wrong standing so I want to kneel but sometimes don’t because I don’t want to draw attention to myself and also feel slightly embarassed; this causes me to be inconsistent. Then I thought I should stand to show unity with the church. Now I’m very confused about what to do.
 
roseb, I understand completely your confusion. When visiting friends (non-Catholics) I attended the Catholic Church in their town. No kneelers!!! :eek: This church was built doing the time after V2 when people went hog-wild and misinterpreted the proceedings of the Council.

In all my years as a Catholic I had never seen this. Most people did not kneel but many did. I was not physically able to kneel on the floor and then get up again so I stood, but it broke my heart to do so.

If you are physically able to kneel - then kneel. Why worry about what other’s think or say. It is the respect for our Dear Lord in the Holy Eucharist that should matter to you.

I started a thread on this subject shortly after that time and if you can find it you will find many of the comments interesting. It happens more than I knew.

:highprayer:
 
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