MERGED: "Musical abuse" at Mass tonight/Rock/Contemporary

[Gorgias]

Assisi,

Two comments/questions for you:

First, in five full pages of responses, I don’t think I saw this question asked of you (apologies if it was there and I missed it): you seem to be saying that there are no Masses in your locale with more traditional hymns. Is this really the case? In my experience, the various Sunday Masses offered at parishes each take on a different ‘feel’: some have praise-and-worship music, others have ‘folk music’, while still others have traditional choirs or a schola. I find it very surprising that, within whatever reasonable radius that you’re working with, there’s not even one Mass at one parish that has traditional music. Perhaps you might ask, at every parish within reason, what choir performs at each Mass. I suspect that you might find that there’s a Mass somewhere near you that might meet your needs.

However, if your needs are quite specific in a particular way, perhaps you might do well to attempt to reach out to the Extraordinary Form community in your area.

Second, I was intrigued by your response in one particular post:

The heretical songs to which I have been exposed usually have the same common problem: they were written by Protestant singer/songwriters to be played during non-liturgical ‘church’ services. They contain themes such as “all we need is God, and to sing psalms to him,” as in all we need is a non-Trinitarian God, and to sing our little songs we composed as our full form of Sunday worship. This is heresy and is not Christian practice.

Your response left me with a few questions. Is your problem with the music itself, per se, or with its composers (Protestant singer/songwriters)? After all, you might be surprised to find that many ‘traditional’ hymns have Protestant roots. (Unless, of course, you’ll only be appeased with Gregorian chant … in which case, my advice with respect to the Extraordinary Form is appropriate.)

Also, your characterization of “all we need is a non-Trinitarian God” and “sing songs as our full form of Sunday worship” seems to say more about you than it does about any particular song. There’s a whole lot of editorial content there that seems to reflect your personal outlook a whole lot more than it reflects the essence of the songs themselves. Perhaps you might consider reflecting on why you respond to this music in this particular way? Perhaps you might consider asking yourself why you’re projecting subjective value judgments on (objective) songs?

Blessings,

G.

 

[RobbyS]

From the Screwtape Letters:
You mentioned casually in your last letter that the patient has continued to
attend one church, and one only, since he was converted, and that he is not
wholly pleased with it. May I ask what you are about? Why have I no report on
the causes of his fidelity to the parish church? Do you realise that unless it
is due to indifference it is a very bad thing? Surely you know that if a man
can’t be cured of churchgoing, the next best thing is to send him all over the
neighbourhood looking for the church that “suits” him until he becomes a taster
or connoisseur of churches.

The reasons are obvious. In the first place the parochial organisation should
always be attacked, because, being a unity of place and not of likings, it
brings people of different classes and psychology together in the kind of unity
the Enemy desires. The congregational principle, on the other hand, makes each
church into a kind of club, and finally, if all goes well, into a coterie or
faction. In the second place, the search for a “suitable” church makes the man a
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critic where the Enemy wants him to be a pupil. What He wants of the layman in
church is an attitude which may, indeed, be critical in the sense of rejecting
what is false or unhelpful, but which is wholly uncritical in the sense that it
does not appraise—does not waste time in thinking about what it rejects, but
lays itself open in uncommenting, humble receptivity to any nourishment that is
going. (You see how grovelling, how unspiritual, how irredeemably vulgar He is!)
This attitude, especially during sermons, creates the condition (most hostile to
our whole policy) in which platitudes can become really audible to a human soul.
There is hardly any sermon, or any book, which may not be dangerous to us if it
is received in this temper. So pray bestir yourself and send this fool the round
of the neighbouring churches as soon as possible. Your record up to date has not
given us much satisfaction.

[edited]

I think it was Msgr. Ronnie Knox who after he converted from the Anglican Church missed its beautiful liturgy, because even the Latin masses were seldom bastions of beauty. But he soldiered on, and so ought we.

 

[thomasf]

I don’t like singing or music at all in mass.

 

[Rand_Al_Thor]

I don’t like singing or music at all in mass.

The Mass itself is meant to be sung.

 

[dfp42]

Yeah, I have the same issue over the years with a few Churches around me that I love, but just can’t stomach some of the things going on with celebrating mass. Call me old fashion but I love a reverent mass. For me personally, I would’ve of never had this problem unless I experienced mass celebrated reverently. A few years ago when coming back to the faith, I visited Mother Angelica’s shrine and Ewtn chapel. I was honestly amazed and astonished at how beautiful the mass was. I was shocked that people where actually quiet before mass praying and preparing themselves for what was about to happen. People would actually stay after mass to pray and give thanks! I felt a sense of extreme peace at the beauty of the Catholic Church. Ever since then, I can’t help but wonder why I can go to 5 different parishes in my area and experience mass in 5 different cultural settings. For some reason there seems to be a push for contemporary things lately. The music seems to be a little overwhelming, almost as if it was somehow in competition with the mass itself. There will be times that I’m trying to pray after communion and I and bounced out of the pew by the band banging drums and screaming at the top of their lungs. Afterwards people clap giving praise to the choir. I’m in no way bashing the mass as I know Christ is still there regardless and people try to do nice things, but it does make we wonder why there is so much variety for the Church being one. There really isn’t much that can be done if you don’t have a reverent Church or Chapel to attend besides pray and offer it up the best you can and try to set example to those around you. Luckily, I found a few chapels and churches that are very holy. But I totally understand what its like. I’m very hopeful that the Church will revisit what VII called for to reform the liturgy.

 

[Lillian71]

I can relate to your frustration. I am struggling with something similar having just moved and trying to find a parish within reasonable driving distance where the sacredness of the mass is maintained with due reverence.

Being one who can concentrate more easily, I am free to pray while experiencing what I would consider, less than appropriate music, but it does effect my ability to enter into the liturgy more fully. It is a real suffering. I think what helps is joining my suffering to Christ in the sacrifice of the cross. Surrendering and accepting the cross in reparation may bring the graces necessary for transforming the Church in our Country. I am not suggesting you shouldn’t look elsewhere, I am still looking, but if I cannot find a parish where worship is faithful to what the Church has laid out for us, then I may have to continue to offer that up for the Church. This may be what God is asking of me. Sacrifices are necessary for purification and understanding that helps me to accept my present situation (while I pray for a change).

Maybe finding others who feel the same way would help in approaching the bishop or a particular parish priest to see if there is anyway to have masses said that meet the documents of the church. I think it is also important to note that most of the people involved with creating music unsuitable for the mass, really do not understand that what they are doing is damaging. Many really don’t understand the richness and depth of the mass so education in that aspect would be helpful. Why not start a group that studies material on the mass like Pope Benedict’s “Spirit of the Liturgy”, and documents on the mass. Or start a prayer group that prays in front of the Blessed Sacrament for this very issue. This wouldn’t achieve immediate results but things like this will help to grow a community of people who could be a movement toward reform. Working for change may be a way for you to endure your present suffering. God may be asking you, what your willing to do to help reform His Church. Just a thought.

 

[opus101]

I can relate to your frustration. I am struggling with something similar having just moved and trying to find a parish within reasonable driving distance where the sacredness of the mass is maintained with due reverence.

Being one who can concentrate more easily, I am free to pray while experiencing what I would consider, less than appropriate music, but it does effect my ability to enter into the liturgy more fully. It is a real suffering. I think what helps is joining my suffering to Christ in the sacrifice of the cross. Surrendering and accepting the cross in reparation may bring the graces necessary for transforming the Church in our Country. I am not suggesting you shouldn’t look elsewhere, I am still looking, but if I cannot find a parish where worship is faithful to what the Church has laid out for us, then I may have to continue to offer that up for the Church. This may be what God is asking of me. Sacrifices are necessary for purification and understanding that helps me to accept my present situation (while I pray for a change).

Maybe finding others who feel the same way would help in approaching the bishop or a particular parish priest to see if there is anyway to have masses said that meet the documents of the church. I think it is also important to note that most of the people involved with creating music unsuitable for the mass, really do not understand that what they are doing is damaging. Many really don’t understand the richness and depth of the mass so education in that aspect would be helpful. Why not start a group that studies material on the mass like Pope Benedict’s “Spirit of the Liturgy”, and documents on the mass. Or start a prayer group that prays in front of the Blessed Sacrament for this very issue. This wouldn’t achieve immediate results but things like this will help to grow a community of people who could be a movement toward reform. Working for change may be a way for you to endure your present suffering. God may be asking you, what your willing to do to help reform His Church. Just a thought.

 

[Phemie]

Here’s the issue I have:

Listen to either of the Guitar links that I posted. Now, listen to this:

youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=HXwpNBlpJsE&feature=endscreen

…and imagine a choir (and possibly the congregation) singing along.

I don’t see that one is any more or less distracting than the other.

You don’t think that the organ lends itself more to supporting congregational singing than guitar? There is nothing more grating to the ears than a majestic hymn accompanied by a strummed guitar.

Then again, if you can’t have an accomplished organist (and that beast is getting rarer than hen’s teeth), get a really good cantor and sing everything a capella.

At Mass I REALLY don’t want to feel like I’m still at the party I attended last night with those same choir members where the song book & guitars were brought out and we sang “Four Strong Winds”, “The Gypsy Rover” and other songs of that vintage. I want to believe I’m at Mass.

 

[opus101]

You don’t think that the organ lends itself more to supporting congregational singing than guitar? There is nothing more grating to the ears than a majestic hymn accompanied by a strummed guitar.

Then again, if you can’t have an accomplished organist (and that beast is getting rarer than hen’s teeth), get a really good cantor and sing everything a capella.

At Mass I REALLY don’t want to feel like I’m still at the party I attended last night with those same choir members where the song book & guitars were brought out and we sang “Four Strong Winds”, “The Gypsy Rover” and other songs of that vintage. I want to believe I’m at Mass.

I agree, Phemie.

The choir party , though, seems like a great way for the musicians to play their secular religious music. With reading and catechesis, maybe they can come to see that there is a time and a place for everything: secular (or as Bishop Olmsted calls it, profane) religious
music outside of the sacred liturgy, and sacred music reserved for Mass.

I started a thread asking what parishes do in order to evangelize through music outside of the Mass, and have gotten very little response. I’m wondering if this is because very little is being done. This might be one of the reasons why we have such music in the Mass - there is no other outlet for it. Personally, I don’t think that is a good enough reason to desacralize the Mass. After all, there is no reason whatsoever good enough to commit sacrilege.

 

[mburn16]

You don’t think that the organ lends itself more to supporting congregational singing than guitar?

That isn’t what I was saying. What I was saying was that congregational singing is no less distracting from private focused prayer than is a soloist and a guitar.

 

[Phemie]

I agree, Phemie.

The choir party , though, seems like a great way for the musicians to play their secular religious music. With reading and catechesis, maybe they can come to see that there is a time and a place for everything: secular (or as Bishop Olmsted calls it, profane) religious music outside of the sacred liturgy, and sacred music reserved for Mass.

The problem with our choir is that it was started by a teacher who brought in the friends whom she’d partied with for the last 20 years. They’re all of the same vintage and they have a fondness for the 1960s thin volumes of Glory & Praise they sang from back in high school. Until the new Roman Missal came out, we were still subjected to the Gloria from Cary Landry’s Young People’s Mass and not so long ago we were abused with “The Spirit Is a Movin’”.

 

[opus101]

The problem with our choir is that it was started by a teacher who brought in the friends whom she’d partied with for the last 20 years. They’re all of the same vintage and they have a fondness for the 1960s thin volumes of Glory & Praise they sang from back in high school. Until the new Roman Missal came out, we were still subjected to the Gloria from Cary Landry’s Young People’s Mass and not so long ago we were abused with “The Spirit Is a Movin’”.

Re: your link. I’m starting to think that American church composers have corrupted the entire English speaking Catholic world.

 

[opus101]

That isn’t what I was saying. What I was saying was that congregational singing is no less distracting from private focused prayer than is a soloist and a guitar.

Well, “that’s just YOUR opinion, mburn!”

But as has been pointed out exhaustively for those who have eyes to see and ears to hear, opinion alone doesn’t cut it.

 

[Phemie]

That isn’t what I was saying. What I was saying was that congregational singing is no less distracting from private focused prayer than is a soloist and a guitar.

We first have to get it into our heads that Mass, like the Liturgy of the Hours, is corporate prayer. If it is celebrated in the right way, you would have time for private focused prayer between the end of the Communion procession itself and the start of the Prayer after Communion.

We have to realize that Mass isn’t about us and what we like best. We can legitimately complain about the quality of the music and singing but complaining about the presence of music and singing at Communion is to say that the Church is wrong since she call for it.

 

[opus101]

The documents of the Second Vatican Council would like to disagree with you. This isn’t just my opinion, it is the opinion of the Church. The Church has stated on numerous occasions that Gregorian Chant is to have pride of place.

Again, I know most people are poorly catechized and we won’t see a return to proper music for a while. But drum sets and pop music? The “band” really gets into it and sway back and forth to the beat and such. This is the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, not a concert.

Gregorian Chant has a rich Tradition in the Church, being used for centuries. The kind of music I encountered has only been widespread in the last 10 years of so.

Does your parish have any musical programs/outlets outside of the Mass? Maybe this would help funnel the inappropriate music elsewhere.

 

[OraLabora]

We first have to get it into our heads that Mass, like the Liturgy of the Hours, is corporate prayer. If it is celebrated in the right way, you would have time for private focused prayer between the end of the Communion procession itself and the start of the Prayer after Communion.

We have to realize that Mass isn’t about us and what we like best. We can legitimately complain about the quality of the music and singing but complaining about the presence of music and singing at Communion is to say that the Church is wrong since she call for it.

^This.

At our abbey, it goes like this: during communion, the schola chants the communion antiphon and the psalm verses that go with it. They vary the number of verses based on the number of faithful present. When the schola finishes usually just before the last few communicants have received, the abbot or presider sits down as does the community, and there’s a couple of minutes of silence before the prayer after communion.

Sacred silence is important in the liturgy, especially after the readings and communion.

 

[mburn16]

I am responding directly to the OP in the postings I have made:

I cannot continue to listen to guitar while praying after receiving the Blessed Sacrament

My point was that music, in general, would be distracting from focused prayer - whether organ and hymn singing or guitar and soloist. And music is permitted, including directly after communion.

 

[Phemie]

I am responding directly to the OP in the postings I have made:

My point was that music, in general, would be distracting from focused prayer - whether organ and hymn singing or guitar and soloist. And music is permitted, including directly after communion.

I think how distracting would be directly proportional to how much you like what is being played/sung.

Yes, it’s true that the post-Communion silence may be exchanged for a congregational hymn. In that case, the priest should be inserting a period of silence after the “Let us pray,” that precedes the Prayer after Communion – as he should each time he says those words.

Unfortunately, in the name of expediency, those moments of silence built into the Liturgy are ignored more often than not.

 

[pnewton]

Are these kind of instruments allowed during Lent, let alone the rest of the year?

Such a position is arguable, as this thread will prove. I noticed you both asked the question and then posted your own answer later. That is disingenuous. If you wanted to debate it, then you should simply state so and not ask innocently and then argue with those that answer you. You may find that people will be slow to respond if you have a history of setting up traps.

I was listening to Scott Hahn yesterday on the Mass. He was explaining the role of the laity in Mass and in the Church. On point he made is that we are part of the body, an essential part, but we are not the head, nor the vertebrae that support the head (the heirarchy and clergy). We are the hands and feet that do the work. I believe we can be too tied to policing the liturgy so that we do not get the food we need to do* our* job as the hands and feet of the body of Christ. I can not believe that the music would be more offensive to God than our distraction.

That being said, the real danger with music that is inappropriate to the setting, is that it serves as a stumbling block to those who truly desire to worship, but are so distracted by musical irritation that they fail to benefit fully from the grace of God. That goes for either rock or chant.

Even though chant is our great musical legacy as Catholics, even though it deserves to be preserved and used with honor, this needs to happen in a pastoral setting. St. Paul said as much in his great paranthentical insert in his writing on liturgy and the body of Christ (I Corinthians 13.) Even the tongues of angels are a noisy gong without charity.

 

[Monica4316]

Hello friends,

I have seen here some of you discuss the ‘drumset and guitar problem’ which many of us are trying to work through. In my entire county, there are no Catholic churches that do not have this problem. I have tried them all ):

I honestly cannot do it anymore. It is interfering majorly with my relationship with Christ in the mass. I cannot continue to listen to guitar while praying after receiving the Blessed Sacrament, and most of the songs have theological problems to them which severely ennervate me.

The closest Byzantine rite church is three hours away. I want to start going to the Greek Orthodox Church down the street just for the liturgy, but I cannot do this because by my convictions I must keep full faithfulness to the Roman Catholic Church.

Any suggestions for this? Please help. It becomes almost painful for me sometimes during mass. Of course I cannot and will not stop going to mass, so I don’t know what to do. Thank you for your help.

Do you have a Latin Mass (such as the FSSP or diocesan) somewhere near by? That helped me a lot personally, because the music (and everything) is so reverent there.