MERGED: "Musical abuse" at Mass tonight/Rock/Contemporary

[Tigg]

Post it then! I haven’t seen one (except maybe a non-authoritative one from the USCCB, which holds no authority).

I cannot find an official document either and I do hope you are correct that an episcopal conference cannot trump Rome in some fashion in this matter, but sadly, from what I’ve read, maybe they have anyway.

One could have also said the same thing about ad-libbing priests 20 years ago when it was more common. That doesn’t mean they should have been doing it. That just means LOTS of people are wrong.

I hope there are significant reforms with the music coming with Bishop Sample, perhaps, leading the way. We once had a visiting music group at our parish where the lead director turned around to face the congregation and blew her trumpet at us. (It was a mariachi band.) Our bishop was the celebrant at this Mass and “concert” while the tapping of toes on the floor to the music was heard, and loud applause given at the end of Mass. To say the least, I was well stunned.

 

[Aran_Houlihan]

one thing I fine that since Vatican two what I don’t like is that modern and contempary hymns have been use in the liturgy with all sort of musical interments and clapping and people moving around and it can be inappropriate for a catholic mass . I am aware that it is not the case in all church but I have seen it and not enjoyed it .

In nomine Patris, + et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti. Amen.
Introibo ad altare Dei. R: Ad deum qui laetificat juventutem meam.

 

[pnewton]

It is not hard to find.

Tra le Sollecitudini, 1903, Pope St. Pius X.

Wait…we can’t have a piano? O___o
We have one at a nearby parish.

Not to worry. The document is from 1903. It is used a lot around here by folks that want nothing but organ. However, disciplinary authority ends with the end of each papacy. The next pope (or the current) could once again announce he wanted no more pianos, but don’t hold your breath. The last time a pope gave instructions on music he gave only* guidelines*, not specific instruments.

 

[sojo]

Wait…we can’t have a piano? O___o
We have one at a nearby parish.

I believe the Bishop can waive this rule, if necessary. Our tiny parish has no money for an organ. We have an electronic keyboard, which is really just an electric piano, and it is played as a piano, not as an organ (not enough keys for organ music and no pedals). I’ve seen other tiny parishes with no instrument at all, or someone strums a guitar softly as everyone sings. I’ve also seen parishes with old upright, out of tune pianos.

 

[Cat]

Not to worry. The document is from 1903. It is used a lot around here by folks that want nothing but organ. However, disciplinary authority ends with the end of each papacy. The next pope (or the current) could once again announce he wanted no more pianos, but don’t hold your breath. The last time a pope gave instructions on music he gave only* guidelines*, not specific instruments.

Thank you.

I suspect that for some people, the fact that the document is from 1903 gives it more authority than later documents.

 

[Lawrence178]

I’m a cantor at my Byzantine Catholic church, and our congregation always joins in very heartily with the responses and chants. Yet when I occasionally visit a Latin Rite church, I too find it difficult to “open my mouth and sing along with the choir” because, sorry, so many of the hymns are just unsing-able, or theologically questionable, or both.

(FWIW every so often I’ll find a church with the “Adoremus” hymnal; those hymns are actually pretty good. )

You are not alone in questioning the hymns used by some parishes.

“Our God is an awesome God, indeed!”
:stretcher:

 

[roadsend]

Not to worry. The document is from 1903. It is used a lot around here by folks that want nothing but organ. However, disciplinary authority ends with the end of each papacy. The next pope (or the current) could once again announce he wanted no more pianos, but don’t hold your breath. The last time a pope gave instructions on music he gave only* guidelines*, not specific instruments.

So If I understand you correctly, all disciplinary instructions from previous popes are now null and void unless Pope Benedict has said otherwise?
This covers a lot of ground. Everything from sacrament administration, Lenten practices, liturgy, permanent deacons, catholic charities etc. etc.
I would appreciate seeing a source which substantiates your position that this Motu Proprio and others expired on the death of the pontiff who issued them.

 

[Elizium23]

So If I understand you correctly, all disciplinary instructions from previous popes are now null and void unless Pope Benedict has said otherwise?
This covers a lot of ground. Everything from sacrament administration, Lenten practices, liturgy, permanent deacons, catholic charities etc. etc.
I would appreciate seeing a source which substantiates your position that this Motu Proprio and others expired on the death of the pontiff who issued them.

Yeah, that is kind of incredible for me to believe. Wasn’t it Blessed John Paul the Great who authorized altar girls? I assume that his disciplinary instruction is null and void at this point. I am not aware that it was renewed by Benedict. Are pastors and bishops allowing altar girls when there is no actual current permission for them? Et cetera.

 

[superamazingman]

I cannot find an official document either and I do hope you are correct that an episcopal conference cannot trump Rome in some fashion in this matter, but sadly, from what I’ve read, maybe they have anyway.

I don’t think anyone has trumped it, it’s just that disobedience has run wild. Now if Rome or the USCCB wanted to allow it, they could easily put it in one of the many authoritative documents on sacred music that have appeared since then. But guess what, they haven’t. By the way, I’m not ranting to you, your comments just sparked the rant

 

[superamazingman]

Not to worry. The document is from 1903. It is used a lot around here by folks that want nothing but organ. However, disciplinary authority ends with the end of each papacy. The next pope (or the current) could once again announce he wanted no more pianos, but don’t hold your breath. The last time a pope gave instructions on music he gave only* guidelines*, not specific instruments.

Huh? I thought documents are in force until nullified.

 

[Cat]

You are not alone in questioning the hymns used by some parishes.

“Our God is an awesome God, indeed!”
:stretcher:

Our God is an awesome God.
He reigns from heaven above
With wisdom, power, and love.
Our God is an awesome God.

You have a problem with this?!

I think this is exactly the message that United States needs to hear loud and clear today. If all of us truly believed this and lived it, we would have a much saner and safer nation.

I love this song. We don’t sing it in our Masses, but occasionally I will play it as a postlude in a children’s or family Mass. Inevitably, a crowd of people will come up to the piano and join in singing it. It is a great song for getting people to SING together and it reminds us all of our place in eternity.

It also has an easily-singable melody on the chorus. The song is set up as an “antiphon,” where a “cantor” sings the verses and the congregation joins in on the response and chorus. Sounds pretty traditional to me!

And keep in mind that Rich Mullins was planning to convert to Catholicism before he was killed (R.I.P.).

I realize that everyone has different personal tastes in music. Thankfully the Church does allow for all styles of music, as well as the different instruments. Be careful. Do you honestly think that all the great bishops in the U.S., who face so many difficulties and trials trying to shepherd the Church, are WRONG about allowing pianos in the Mass? Do you honestly think a sentence in one antique document contradicts the decisions of the living apostles of the Lord Jesus Christ, who are themselves under the authority of one of the most intelligent and thoughtful Popes in history, Pope Benedict XVI?

Do you honestly think that Pope Benedict XVI would allow so many parishes in the world to be in direct violation of the Church’s teachings by using instruments other than the pipe organ and music other than Gregorian chant, when by a word (or a tweet), he could put an immediate stop to it and end use in the Mass of all pianos, other instruments (including drums), and musical styles other than chant?

Perhaps the Pope and the bishops know a bit more than we do about canon law.

 

[Tigg]

I have always, but always been most confused by the music. I did find an article written by Lucy E. Carroll, Adjunct Associate Professor of Music Education at Westminster Choir College. She wrote an article entitled **“Why the Music is so Bad” **with a sub-title of **“And Why It Will Probably Stay That Way!” ** (Don’t you just love it???)

The highlights are here, but I’ve snipped some of the sarcasm - seems Professor Carroll is not too happy:

In 1967 Pope Paul VI approved a document called “Musicam Sacram” that explained the place of music in the “Novus Ordo”

“Sacrosanctum Concilium” stated that the “treasury of sacred music is to be preserved and cultivated with great care.” This document also stated that in “mission lands” a suitable place should be given to the musical tradition of the native land and it should be held in proper esteem. (After all one would hardly expect to find a pipe organ in a village that had no plumbing or electricity.) This was not a wholesale license to use anything and everything in secular style and instrumentation.

In 1972 the American bishops issued a document entitled “Music in Catholic Worship” which completely ignores Musicam Sacram. It states that music, far from having a universality, should have a home town flavor. It states that music ought to be in the hands of non-musicians, chosen by committee and it should be different for different ethnic and age groups, in direct contradiction to Vatican pronouncements.

In November 2007, the USCCB voted on a revised form of “Music in Catholic Worship.” This revision, entitled “Sing to the Lord” states that Catholics must celebrate their faith in the songs and musical styles of their cultural, ethnic and racial roots. So music publishers must offer multilingual options and thus we are encouraged to be a veritable Tower of Babel, where some understand some and no one understands all. This is why traditional chant and hymn forms, accompanied by the Latin language are to be preferred: They are accessible to everyone. Common ground is called for, not ethnic divisions.

Although “Sing to the Lord” was voted into being by the American bishops, it was not given the force of law; it is only a guide.

In the present day, many potential directors of music are not of our faith tradition. Oh, and why is this? Perhaps it is because classically trained musicians ran from the dread parish situations where folks with little or no musical training selected the music and where the music selection was so mediocre. It does not take a professional to play the guitar or amateurish music of today and organists and music directors have fled to places where their skills were needed and respected.

So am I to understand that episcopal conferences have, indeed, the authority to make guidelines but need no recognitio from Rome despite the fact that Vat II reaffirmed that chant was to be given place of pride?

 

[Tigg]

one thing I fine that since Vatican two what I don’t like is that modern and contempary hymns have been use in the liturgy with all sort of musical interments and clapping and people moving around and it can be inappropriate for a catholic mass . I am aware that it is not the case in all church but I have seen it and not enjoyed it .

In nomine Patris, + et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti. Amen.
Introibo ad altare Dei. R: Ad deum qui laetificat juventutem meam.

Have you ever tried to pray the Anima Christi with all this going on? It is not an easy task to do. Also some of our cantors, altho they must have a great love for music, simply are off tune and it is the most distracting thing at Mass.

I have a good friend with a beautiful voice and she has explained to me that anyone wishing to sing in the choir must be allowed to do so (after all, it’s their “ministry”) and the reason there are no “try-outs.” And there goes the solemnness and praise-worthiness of our singing at Mass.

 

[pnewton]

“Our God is an awesome God, indeed!”
:stretcher:

Yes, indeed He is!

 

[pnewton]

So If I understand you correctly, all disciplinary instructions from previous popes are now null and void unless Pope Benedict has said otherwise?.

No. I did not say that. However, that which is and which isn’t is in the hands of the bishops, not disgruntled posters here. In this case, there has been another musical document, which I mentioned btw, that did not enumerate specific instruments. The 1903 document was used instead of the more recent one because it said what the poster wanted to say, not because it applies anymore. Musicam Sacrum (1967) says:

In permitting and using musical instruments, the culture and traditions of individual peoples must be taken into account

In sung or said Masses, the organ, or other instrument legitimately admitted, can be used to accompany the singing of the choir and the people; it can also be played solo at the beginning before the priest reaches the altar, at the Offertory, at the Communion, and at the end of Mass.

In this case, this would supercede the previous discipline. There have also been subsequent statements that can be used by the bishops as a guideline to set practice. **The Catholic Church does not forbid a single specific instrument, but rather sets the guidelines and leads decisions to those closest to the need. **

As far as the nature of papal disciplinary authority, I am not going to document Papal Authority 101. Suffice it to say that over music implementation, it is the Bishop that carries the authority. He gives it to the Priest. If you do not like what is happening in your own place, take it up the chain. If enough do, you will get results.

 

[pnewton]

I have always, but always been most confused by the music. I did find an article written by Lucy E. Carroll, Adjunct Associate Professor of Music Education at Westminster Choir College. She wrote an article entitled **“Why the Music is so Bad” **with a sub-title of **“And Why It Will Probably Stay That Way!” **(Don’t you just love it???)

The highlights are here, but I’ve snipped some of the sarcasm - seems Professor Carroll is not too happy:

So am I to understand that episcopal conferences have, indeed, the authority to make guidelines but need no recognitio from Rome despite the fact that Vat II reaffirmed that chant was to be given place of pride?

" Sing to the Lord" carries not direct authority. However, it does carry absoluted weight if a specific bishop tells his priest to use it. No, there is not need for a bishop to get permission from Rome to do his job. This is why we do not see the Vatican stepping in on music in any country. While Ms. Carroll in her position as an associate professor may be knowledgable in her area, it is the bishop and priests that must look to all the needs of the flock and therefore exercise Church authority. It is their place to act with prudence and to implement chant (or organ which has a place of pride) in their diocese in a place they deem best.

 

[Cat]

Have you ever tried to pray the Anima Christi with all this going on? It is not an easy task to do. Also some of our cantors, altho they must have a great love for music, simply are off tune and it is the most distracting thing at Mass.

I have a good friend with a beautiful voice and she has explained to me that anyone wishing to sing in the choir must be allowed to do so (after all, it’s their “ministry”) and the reason there are no “try-outs.” And there goes the solemnness and praise-worthiness of our singing at Mass.

It depends on who you are and what your background is.

I have no problem at all praying with drums, guitars, or even rock music. I was raised on it in my Evangelical Protestant church, and so to ME, it sounds reverent and “church-y” (At least, the Christian version of it sounds reverent. I’m not saying that the Stones sound reverent or godly!)

Since we didn’t enter bars or lounges (forbidden by our church constitution), we didn’t have an association of this kind of music with “secular.”

OTOH, I have a terrible time trying to pray during a Bach prelude on the pipe organ, or while someone is chanting. To me, these musical styles are “theatrical” because that’s how I grew up–hearing them in a concert setting. I find myself analyzing the technique of the organist, or the singer.

 

[Lawrence178]

Our God is an awesome God.
He reigns from heaven above
With wisdom, power, and love.
Our God is an awesome God.

You have a problem with this?!

I think this is exactly the message that United States needs to hear loud and clear today. If all of us truly believed this and lived it, we would have a much saner and safer nation.

I love this song. We don’t sing it in our Masses, but occasionally I will play it as a postlude in a children’s or family Mass. Inevitably, a crowd of people will come up to the piano and join in singing it. It is a great song for getting people to SING together and it reminds us all of our place in eternity.

It also has an easily-singable melody on the chorus. The song is set up as an “antiphon,” where a “cantor” sings the verses and the congregation joins in on the response and chorus. Sounds pretty traditional to me!

And keep in mind that Rich Mullins was planning to convert to Catholicism before he was killed (R.I.P.).

I realize that everyone has different personal tastes in music. Thankfully the Church does allow for all styles of music, as well as the different instruments. Be careful. Do you honestly think that all the great bishops in the U.S., who face so many difficulties and trials trying to shepherd the Church, are WRONG about allowing pianos in the Mass? Do you honestly think a sentence in one antique document contradicts the decisions of the living apostles of the Lord Jesus Christ, who are themselves under the authority of one of the most intelligent and thoughtful Popes in history, Pope Benedict XVI?

Do you honestly think that Pope Benedict XVI would allow so many parishes in the world to be in direct violation of the Church’s teachings by using instruments other than the pipe organ and music other than Gregorian chant, when by a word (or a tweet), he could put an immediate stop to it and end use in the Mass of all pianos, other instruments (including drums), and musical styles other than chant?

Perhaps the Pope and the bishops know a bit more than we do about canon law.

This song? You are talking about this song?

youtube.com/watch?v=6ogpI-ODydc

Exactly which part of Mass do you think this would be appropriate for?!

Music at Mass is supposed to be conducive to prayer, to be solemn and Heavenly, not just catchy. Everyone coming up and rocking out at the piano pretty much proves my point. Do you honestly think that music like that has the same effect as, say, Gregorian chant or other music specifically composed for our worship? Mass is not about their entertainment.

Anyway, outside of Mass, I have no problem with people listening to it.

 

[pnewton]

Exactly which part of Mass do you think this would be appropriate for?!

It is one of the songs my son’s school uses at Mass. I think it is used as an entrance. I think the song is appropriate for this use. Is that “exact” enough for you?

I actually had it on my list last Sunday. Well, not really on my list. It was something in my head I could do without music after I had already done four songs during ten minutes of blessing of the throats and before we finished, but then this was after Mass. I would never use it for the congregation during Mass because it is not in the hymnal.

I have been in situations in the past with this song. It was very conducive to prayer, when on remembers prayer is also praise of God for who He is and not just petition.

 

[seekerz]

Actually, it’s both. It’s not a matter of faith, but as you conveniently ignored, the church has spoken quite clearly on this issue. Using the old crutch of “culture and habit” doesn’t give us the authority to ignore the church in this area.

Go right ahead! Praise God however you want! But at the liturgy, it’s not about doing whatever we want, or “not making issues.” There’s rubrics and directives for a reason.

Is there somewhere that the Church says categorically that the use of drums is not appropriate for Mass? My information (quoted in a previous post) is, there is not, but I stand open to correction.