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mburn16
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so much of this could be avoided if Catholics weren’t so misguided, as a whole, in restricting organized worship almost exclusively to mass… :sad_yes:
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R_C
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And who would guide us? Someone who separated from the Catholic Church 15 centuries later, or someone who came into existence in the last century?
I personally only take advice from our Orthodox brethren in matters of liturgy, and ultimately we do not restrict organized worship almost exclusively to Holy Mass (although, of course, since Christ is actually present in Holy Mass, it does sort of turn it into the source and summit of what the Church is, just like it was ever since the walk of Emmaus).
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englishredrose
Guest
I think a lot of Christians misunderstand the term solemn. I really do because some find it hard to even smile through the church service. If for some reason you catch someone’s eye and they give a wink, or a smile then it not wrong to smile back. The number of people who look so glum after receiving communion. It a happy celebration in that we are receiving Jesus. Does one have to look like they darent smile or their makeup will crack? They are full of chatter afterward so it not that they are actually glum or anything. Just their way of portraying seriousness and solemness. It not very welcoming to sit in a church full of people who for that 60 minutes daren’t smile though they can if the priest has said something funny in the sermon but for the rest. Something wrong in that approach to solemn. Why can’t we smile and look happier about being there rather than as though we are all solemn as in mood. I am sure people have long misunderstood it and would love to write something on that but…
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Sarabande
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I think it may be because solemn is mostly understood and described with more “heavy” and almost “dour” words. Just look at all of the definitions posted on the actual word. But, as I posted yesterday, the words “awe-inspiring” and “sublime” were also used. Now, as for the word, “awe” that apparently is “an emotion variously combining dread, veneration, and wonder that is inspired by authority or by the sacred or sublime”. Again, the use of a heavy word - “dread”, although mixed with “veneration”, “wonder” and “sublime”.I think a lot of Christians misunderstand the term solemn. I really do because some find it hard to even smile through the church service. If for some reason you catch someone’s eye and they give a wink, or a smile then it not wrong to smile back. The number of people who look so glum after receiving communion. It a happy celebration in that we are receiving Jesus. Does one have to look like they darent smile or their makeup will crack? They are full of chatter afterward so it not that they are actually glum or anything. Just their way of portraying seriousness and solemness. It not very welcoming to sit in a church full of people who for that 60 minutes daren’t smile though they can if the priest has said something funny in the sermon but for the rest. Something wrong in that approach to solemn. Why can’t we smile and look happier about being there rather than as though we are all solemn as in mood. I am sure people have long misunderstood it and would love to write something on that but…
Although I cannot say for sure, as I don’t know if the Church actually details what she means when she used the word, “solemn”, I do believe that the Church means for us to take in the balance of all the meanings of the word. Heaviness balanced with magnificence and the sublime. I know for myself, when I am inspired by something sublime, I may not have a huge smile on my countenance, but there is almost an ecstasy which (for me, at least) transcends happiness. That doesn’t mean, I don’t smile. I do, but usually not broadly… and it’s not because I’m purposely trying to not smile broadly. It’s because it is my natural physical reaction to being inspired by the sublime and feeling of ecstasy. So, I do think there is nothing wrong with smiling during mass. I don’t believe there is anything “un-solemn” about it.
That said, I think something that is “awe-inspiring” and “sublime”, usually doesn’t create much excited physical movement. Perhaps I’m wrong, but any time I have ever been amongst people who have felt “awed” and have been awed, myself, there is an intense, very palpable stillness. To move would almost break the “spell”, so-to-speak. Perhaps, if there are people at mass who are feeling awed by the sublime, whether really thinking about transubstantiation (whenever I ponder it, it leaves me completely still - it’s so awe-inspiring and so hard to wrap my head around), a hymn or other piece of music or a particular reading, etc. they aren’t purposely looking glum, but are just having a natural physical reaction to their feelings.
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RDB
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Wow. While interesting to read the discourse here, the original thread seems to have been reduced to a discussion of definitions and semantics.
I’m a musician in a rock / blues band, as I said. Trying to define “rock” by a time signature is like saying that if you have long hair you’re a drug addict. There is no measurable, definitive means to define “rock” music. Polka, maybe. Rock, no.
The point I think is missed. Some, like me, believe that music that allows you to connect with the Holy Spirit while maintaining your hearing ability is preferred over that which is performed in a manner that evokes applause for the performer rather than a tear for our Lord’s passion and sacrifice.
I’m a musician in a rock / blues band, as I said. Trying to define “rock” by a time signature is like saying that if you have long hair you’re a drug addict. There is no measurable, definitive means to define “rock” music. Polka, maybe. Rock, no.
The point I think is missed. Some, like me, believe that music that allows you to connect with the Holy Spirit while maintaining your hearing ability is preferred over that which is performed in a manner that evokes applause for the performer rather than a tear for our Lord’s passion and sacrifice.
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Sarabande
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Anruari further clarified his/her thought regarding this, but I do agree with you that you can’t define “rock” by a time signature. In his/her following post, you will see Anruari would also agree with that.
Actually, I don’t think that point is missed. A number of times it has been mentioned that the way a piece of music is performed can make a world of difference of how it will be perceived. An aspect of that is, yes, playing music too loudly so that it becomes like a concert, or to a point that you lose your hearing. I’m very sensitive to that because I lost much of my hearing as a child and went through a lot to get that hearing back.
I think because the word, “solemn” have been used by the Church and by many to describe how a mass is “supposed” to be or how the music “should” be, I think it is important to find out what the Church actually means by that. Does she mean it to mean only the more “serious” and “heavy” definition of it or does she mean it to encompass everything within the definitions from the feelings of awe and magnificence. Then, in addition, how does one figure out what is actually sublime and awe-inspiring?
As Tigg pointed out, even though “solemn” is often used by the Church to describe mass and music, the guidelines are also vague, so it does create this kind of discussion. If it wasn’t vague and very detailed and precise, this discussion wouldn’t even be happening.
I do agree with you that this is an interesting discussion.
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Armor_of_Light
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Homer Simpson said it best:
“Christian rock doen’t make Chrisianity better, it only makes rock worse.”
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opus101
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Bishop Olmsted sheds light on the term “solemn” as regards the sacred liturgy. He uses “festive” as part of his description. (next to last paragraph):diocesephoenix.org/bishop-olmsted-columns.php?postmonth=201112&story=565787896
Christmas is referred to as a “solemnity” on the liturgical calendar. It doesn’t necessarily mean somber.
The “solemnity” of the Mass is part of Church doctrine, it is found in the catechism.
Christmas is referred to as a “solemnity” on the liturgical calendar. It doesn’t necessarily mean somber.
The “solemnity” of the Mass is part of Church doctrine, it is found in the catechism.
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Sarabande
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Thanks. I don’t have time to read it right now, but it’s nice to see a Bishop describe it. So it would fit more into the all-around definition of “solemn”. Do you know if there are any actual Church documents on the definition?
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opus101
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I will look into it. The catechism speaks of it as one of the qualities connected to the liturgical action (1157):vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P38.HTM, but doesn’t actually define the term.
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hamburglar
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The documents of the Second Vatican Council would like to disagree with you. This isn’t just my opinion, it is the opinion of the Church. The Church has stated on numerous occasions that Gregorian Chant is to have pride of place.
Again, I know most people are poorly catechized and we won’t see a return to proper music for a while. But drum sets and pop music? The “band” really gets into it and sway back and forth to the beat and such. This is the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, not a concert.
Gregorian Chant has a rich Tradition in the Church, being used for centuries. The kind of music I encountered has only been widespread in the last 10 years of so.
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AssisiFollower
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Hello friends,
I have seen here some of you discuss the ‘drumset and guitar problem’ which many of us are trying to work through. In my entire county, there are no Catholic churches that do not have this problem. I have tried them all ):
I honestly cannot do it anymore. It is interfering majorly with my relationship with Christ in the mass. I cannot continue to listen to guitar while praying after receiving the Blessed Sacrament, and most of the songs have theological problems to them which severely ennervate me.
The closest Byzantine rite church is three hours away. I want to start going to the Greek Orthodox Church down the street just for the liturgy, but I cannot do this because by my convictions I must keep full faithfulness to the Roman Catholic Church.
Any suggestions for this? Please help. It becomes almost painful for me sometimes during mass. Of course I cannot and will not stop going to mass, so I don’t know what to do. Thank you for your help.
I have seen here some of you discuss the ‘drumset and guitar problem’ which many of us are trying to work through. In my entire county, there are no Catholic churches that do not have this problem. I have tried them all ):
I honestly cannot do it anymore. It is interfering majorly with my relationship with Christ in the mass. I cannot continue to listen to guitar while praying after receiving the Blessed Sacrament, and most of the songs have theological problems to them which severely ennervate me.
The closest Byzantine rite church is three hours away. I want to start going to the Greek Orthodox Church down the street just for the liturgy, but I cannot do this because by my convictions I must keep full faithfulness to the Roman Catholic Church.
Any suggestions for this? Please help. It becomes almost painful for me sometimes during mass. Of course I cannot and will not stop going to mass, so I don’t know what to do. Thank you for your help.
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AssisiFollower
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Another thing is that there is this major problem with the agnus dei. I keep hearing at different churches this call-and-answer pop song that makes a mockery of what is for me the most beautiful prayer of the mass. Would you sing that at the foot of the cross? I don’t think so, so don’t bring it into the mass ):
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OraLabora
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Any monasteries near you? That might be the answer. I’m 35 min. away from a wonderful Benedictine abbey. Gregorian chant (propers and ordinary) every day, the rest in French plainchant, even the readings are sung. Very beautiful. I go to Mass there every Sunday.
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mburn16
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"I cannot continue to listen to guitar while praying after receiving the Blessed Sacrament, and most of the songs have theological problems to them which severely ennervate me. "
With due respect, would you find organ and singing to be any less distracting? Because, while I can appreciate your frustrations (though I don’t happen to share them), its worth pointing out that music during and after communion is entirely appropriate and permitted.
With due respect, would you find organ and singing to be any less distracting? Because, while I can appreciate your frustrations (though I don’t happen to share them), its worth pointing out that music during and after communion is entirely appropriate and permitted.
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opus101
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Assissi, I can feel your pain. For some people, it is more than difficult to endure such things. I’ve been in a similar situation for years, but have finally found a nearby parish that has very simple and reverent Masses - simple chant responses and “regular” hymns with organist. Unfortunately for you, there doesn’t seem to be a parish anywhere around you where you can seek refuge.
Are there any more or less traditional convents or monasteries in your area? If so, maybe you could attend Mass there. Another option is to attend the Masses at your parish, but also watch the Mass on EWTN.
I’m so sorry that you have to go through this, it is a very difficult trial. Hang on, maybe change will be coming soon.
Are there any more or less traditional convents or monasteries in your area? If so, maybe you could attend Mass there. Another option is to attend the Masses at your parish, but also watch the Mass on EWTN.
I’m so sorry that you have to go through this, it is a very difficult trial. Hang on, maybe change will be coming soon.
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opus101
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I think I know which setting you are talking about. I’m trying to find a video of it on youtube, but it’s hard because I don’t know the name of the particular Mass setting.
So far, the only thing I’ve come up with is the following, which is usually (in my experience) not done in such a popular-type music rendition:youtube.com/watch?v=BJnhAinbP6A
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JamesCaruso
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After Vatican II it fell to the Sacred Congregation of Rites (today called Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments) to apply the norms of Sacrosanctum Concilium. Musicam sacram (Sacred Music) establishes what can be called sacred music.
I won’t bore you with a lengthy rendering of its contents, but I cherry picked a few paragraphs on point:
…The pipe organ is to be held in high esteem in the Latin Church, since it is its traditional instrument, the sound of which can add a wonderful splendor to the Church’s ceremonies and powerfully lift up men’s minds to God and higher things.
"The use of other instruments may also be admitted in divine worship, given the decision and consent of the competent territorial authority, provided that the instruments are suitable for sacred use, or can be adapted to it, that they are in keeping with the dignity of the temple, and truly contribute to the edification of the faithful.
…However, those instruments which are, by common opinion and use, suitable for secular music only, are to be altogether prohibited from every liturgical celebration and from popular devotions.
Any musical instrument permitted in divine worship should be used in such a way that it meets the needs of the liturgical celebration, and is in the interests both of the beauty of worship and the edification of the faithful.
ewtn.com/expert/answers/music_and_instruments.htm
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